Class 800 - Updates

[cornish trains jez]

 

The rapid departure from York on diesel power.

https://youtu.be/J-g1W0Xc6xE

No quicker than a 91 + MK4 set or HST Edited October 26, 2016 by cornish trains jez

[frobisher]

No quicker than a 91 + MK4 set or HST

Yet with a lot less HP under the bonnet, and a lot less noise... That's a win surely?

[The Stationmaster]

Also quoted somewhere is a maximum gradient of 2.7% or 1:37 which must put them on the limit in several places.

 

What happened to the idea of providing more than minimum required power as a contingency?

 

Keith (but the higher power West of Englnad version should presumably be ok

 

Distinct problem on Dainton then where one short bit is reckoned to be nearer 1 in 34/35 (but the higher powered West of England version should presumably be ok - if all the engines are working).

[Zomboid]

Yet with a lot less HP under the bonnet, and a lot less noise... That's a win surely?

The thing with these is their peak acceleration is over by about 30mph. Their 0-125 time on diesel (if they can even get there) will probably be much worse than a HST or a (140 mph geared) 91.

 

I suspect they'll be slower over Slochd & Drumochter than a HST, probably an embarrassing hold up in front of the Scotrail 2+5s...

Edited October 26, 2016 by Zomboid

[Glorious NSE]

Also quoted somewhere is a maximum gradient of 2.7% or 1:37 which must put them on the limit in several places.

It still should have a substantially better power to weight ratio, even on the de-rated diesel, than (for example) a class 153, a type that uses the Devon banks daily, so it's not "on the limit" in terms of the ability to reliably go up the hills, the question is whether it can reliably do so in (at least) a similar time to an HST.

[Coach bogie]

According to Realtime Trains It was routed via the Up Slow so would only be doing a maximum of 70 mph!

Went straight through on the main. I assume a combination of leaving Darlington 20 mins early and the Edinburgh Kings Cross running late at the time the IEP left contributed.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited October 26, 2016 by Coach bogie

[Christopher125]

A couple of videos have now cropped up of 800101 under electric power on the ECML, seen departing Stevenage and passing Northallerton.

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

Interesting that the pantograph seems to be illuminated. Are they videoing it?

[ess1uk]

Interesting that the pantograph seems to be illuminated. Are they videoing it?

Seems to be the norm on new emus.

There is a light and camera for pantograph monitoring.

[royaloak]

Don't forget that multiple units with all/most axles powered can accelerate faster per HP than a locomotive and carriages of the same power. So directly comparing HST and Class 800 power ratings isn't quite the full story.  

So why do all the tables have the HST gaining speed faster than an IET above 70mph then?

Seems to be the norm on new emus.

There is a light and camera for pantograph monitoring for when the overheads get pulled down so we know who to blame.

Edited for accuracy!

[melmerby]

There is a light and camera for pantograph monitoring.

Presumably it's come from Japanese practice where the Shinkansen have them.

 

Keith

[jamie92208]

Presumably it's come from Japanese practice where the Shinkansen have them.

 

Keith

 

If it's doing tests the pantograph camera may well be part of the test.

 

Jamie

[ess1uk]

Cameras have been on emus pantographs for years in general traffic, not just testing.

[modfather]

Pan cameras are handy for warranty and damage claims too. Bracknell Willis are big fans and use footage to analyse pan behaviour.

[Steadfast]

 

I wonder if the carriages without engines are fitted 'for but not with' in case they really have got their sums wrong and need to add more power.

 

Nope, those with engines fitted have higher floors than the vehicles without engines

 

Jo

[modfather]

Nope, those with engines fitted have higher floors than the vehicles without engines

 

Jo

Both end cars have air and transformer packs taking up all the space.

 

The inside bogie cars in the 9 cars are empty underneath. There's always a way.

[royaloak]

Nope, those with engines fitted have higher floors than the vehicles without engines

 

Jo

I thought all intermediate coaches had the raised floor whether they had engines fitted or not, only the end (driving) coaches had the low floor!

 

This is what I have been told as I havent seen inside them.

[modfather]

I thought all intermediate coaches had the raised floor whether they had engines fitted or not, only the end (driving) coaches had the low floor!

 

This is what I have been told as I havent seen inside them.

Correct. I can only stand in the DPT cars.

Edited October 30, 2016 by modfather

[Zomboid]

I believe that's because the diesel engines are relatively tall (V12s, rather than horizontally mounted straight engines on other DMUs, and chosen because no such engine is available at the required output which meets emissions regulations), and necessitate a floor height which is too close to the ceiling that a pantograph well dictates.

[royaloak]

I believe that's because the diesel engines are relatively tall (V12s, rather than horizontally mounted straight engines on other DMUs, and chosen because no such engine is available at the required output which meets emissions regulations), and necessitate a floor height which is too close to the ceiling that a pantograph well dictates.

Or as I like to call it, a bodge job!

[The Stationmaster]

Or as I like to call it, a bodge job!

 

It certainly sounds like it.  The more one hears about this train the more one wonders ...  ...

[Ron Ron Ron]

I believe that's because the diesel engines are relatively tall (V12s, rather than horizontally mounted straight engines on other DMUs, and chosen because no such engine is available at the required output which meets emissions regulations), and necessitate a floor height which is too close to the ceiling that a pantograph well dictates.

 

 

Or as I like to call it, a bodge job!

 

 

If the only suitable engines available have imposed this minor restriction on the design, how could that be described as a "bodge job"?

The design has simply taken it into account and been adjusted accordingly.

 

 

 

.

[Zomboid]

The bodge is in the DfT insisting on underfloor engines, not in the implementation of them.

[The Stationmaster]

If the only suitable engines available have imposed this minor restriction on the design, how could that be described as a "bodge job"?

The design has simply taken it into account and been adjusted accordingly.

 

 

 

.

 

It all depends where you start from.  If you assume that the logical design for a modern train floor on a single deck vehicle is to have a  flat floor then it sounds to me like bodge.  If you want a floor which rises and falls over which people have to move with their luggage or to go to the toilet and over which some might potentially bang their heads and over which a loaded catering trolley has to pass then it's down right stupid and shows the nonsensical constraints which were put into the specfication/design.

 

Any modern InterCity train in Britain should to my mind offer various steps forward from the BR Mk3 vehicle of 40+ years ago design - i.e it should ride better, be quieter, offer improved levels of passenger comfort and additional levels of amenity such as wifi and a modern catering offer relevant to the markets it is supposed to serve.  If it doesn't do those things, in an energy efficient way, then it's a bodge and a commercial disaster waiting to happen.  Draw up a silly spec and you'll get a silly result; draw up an inadequate spec and you'll get an inadequate result.  The Pendolinos gave us some significant steps backwards compared with the roominess of a Mk 3 and Mk 4 coach but most of that is down to the body profile needed for tilt within the UK loading gauge, that some of the interior is poorly laid out is just down to various design constraints and requirements imposed by the specifier.

 

I, like most people, obviously have yet to sample a Class 800 but in an InterCity train for the 21st century I am look for a step change advance from a refitted 40 year old Mk3 coach but it must - as the absolute bottom line - be at least as good as that vehicle has been at any stage of its various interior lives.  If it doesn't deliver that then in my book it's not only a bodge but a potential commercial disaster for longer distance rail travel competing with luxury coaches and well equipped private cars (or even aeroplanes - but I seriously doubt any rail vehicle could be as bad as one of them). 

[Christopher125]

The bodge is in the DfT insisting on underfloor engines, not in the implementation of them.

 

I don't recall them 'insisting', Hitachi settled on it as the best solution - a very sensible decision, given continuing passenger growth and the relative simplicity by which the GWR sets can all be turned out as bi-modes to cope with electrification delays.