Class 800 - Updates

[modfather]

This morning as I drove along Old Oak Lane the Virgin azuma was parked up and in the siding over the bridge and they appeared to be unloading sand bags from the train into the cess

Test sets are running on full load. It's off to Bristol tonight.

[Richard E]

Daylight run today from Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings. Left Peterborough at 07:36 (right time) but now running 12 late. Due in York around 09:10 and Darlington 09:55.

[Indomitable026]

Daylight run today from Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings. Left Peterborough at 07:36 (right time) but now running 12 late. Due in York around 09:10 and Darlington 09:55.

 

 

[Richard E]

Pictures from Peterborough this morning now that I have got the photos uploaded.

 

At platform 5

 

 

Logo detail on trailing Driving car

 

 

Don't fancy the current seating arrangements!

 

 

And centre car livery detail

 

 

It scuttled off north just after I took that last one and as I was walking up to the front of the set. It appeared to be in 9 coach formation and was running the diesel engines. Not sure where/when it switched to electric later on given the photo from Indomitable026. Noted that it appears to have a 25kv busbar along the top of the train. Most of the control cabling is arranged via jumpers either side of the gangway rather than at low level.

 

Passed it south of Newark, I was expecting to pass it near Potteric Carr so got caught out.

 

Return run planned tonight from Merchant Park sidings leaving at 21:04 and arriving at Peterborough at 00:36. The plan is then to return to Merchant Park at 3:23 arriving 07:22.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Richard E

[Coach bogie]

 

Return run planned tonight from Merchant Park sidings leaving at 21:04 and arriving at Peterborough at 00:36. The plan is then to return to Merchant Park at 3:23 arriving 07:22.

Here is the return run in Darlington Up Loop changing over from Diesel to electric. Another run planned for tomorrow.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[PaulRhB]

Anybody know if these are five or nine car sets? The Railway Gazette doesn't say. And potential use? Have GWR decided that shortened HSTs won't do the trick on the Plymouth to Cariff (I think) services and use these instead?

So the 800's are too heavy for the Pompey route and HST sets have an out of gauge restriction which would make regular operation a regulating and safety nightmare. Certainly nothing in the pipeline I'm aware of to sort the OOG issue for the mk3 coaches at Salisbury Tunnel Jn and they weren't mentioned in the options on the doc I saw.

[Siberian Snooper]

I am led to believe one of these (800) has been over the banks to Plymouth and could only make leisurely 30 mph going up them.

[cornish trains jez]

I am led to believe one of these (800) has been over the banks to Plymouth and could only make leisurely 30 mph going up them.

 

What speeds do the HST's achieve over the banks?

[wombatofludham]

I am led to believe one of these (800) has been over the banks to Plymouth and could only make leisurely 30 mph going up them.

 

Isn't that why Great Western have ordered a separate batch of units with beefier diesel engines for the West of England route?

 

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html

Edited October 25, 2016 by wombatofludham

[jamie92208]

Isn't that why Great Western have ordered a separate batch of units with beefier diesel engines for the West of England route?

 

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html

 

As far as I know from Uncle Roger's comments the engines are the same but are to run at their full designed output rather than being restricted as in the IEP's,  Apparently there are all sorts of warranty issues if the current batch are run at their full rated power.

 

Jamie

[modfather]

The current sets can over power to compensate if one engine packs up.

 

It has to be remembered that these were "last leg" engines not primary movers and that the west of England fleet will be at the full engine power rather than the restricted iep rating.

[The Stationmaster]

The current sets can over power to compensate if one engine packs up.

 

It has to be remembered that these were "last leg" engines not primary movers and that the west of England fleet will be at the full engine power rather than the restricted iep rating.

 

Hardly 'last leg' engines on some of their originally planned workings (e.g. Cheltenham and Weston-Super-Mare let alone what might well be expected of them at the current (slow and late) pace of the electrification work.  The basic fact is that on certain sections of route which are nor planned to be electrified these trains will have to match HST point-to point timings or services will have to be decelerated destroying turnround times and damaging utilisation with potential commercial impact as well.  In simple terms if they can't run Paddington - Reading in 22-23 minutes start-to-stop on diesel power they're step back towards the 1960s.

 

This is what happens when you get trains ordered by Civil Servants instead of by knowledgeable railway engineers and operators who understand what is actually needed instead of what they think might be wanted.

[cornish trains jez]

I bet the HST's are laughing in the faces of the class 800's!

[Zomboid]

Won't they have a job getting over the Cotswolds in HST time then? Let alone the Highland main line.

That's what you get when you go for tractive effort as a substitute for power.

[melmerby]

Anyone know how much these trains weigh compared to an HST?

 

e.g. a 9 car class 8xx which has (5x750hp =) 3750 hp or (5x940 hp =) 4700hp  against a 2+7 HST with (2x2250hp =) 4500hp

 

IMHO only 4700hp in a brand new 21st century train isn't enough (and 3750hp is a joke!)

 

Keith

Edited October 25, 2016 by melmerby

[pete_mcfarlane]

Don't forget that multiple units with all/most axles powered can accelerate faster per HP than a locomotive and carriages of the same power. So directly comparing HST and Class 800 power ratings isn't quite the full story.  

[Coach bogie]

800 101 has just gone through Northallerton on diesel power (tested on electric last night) and despite a clear road through to York, its' speed was well below the normal HST level on the same stretch. Slow enough that I noticed some coaches have inside bearing bogies as Voyagers and others outside bearings as Super Voyagers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[modfather]

800 101 has just gone through Northallerton on diesel power (tested on electric last night) and despite a clear road through to York, its' speed was well below the normal HST level on the same stretch. Slow enough that I noticed some coaches have inside bearing bogies as Voyagers and others outside bearings as Super Voyagers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Two cars on a nine car only have inside bearing bogies.

 

I believe that t58 is on power speed testing.

[melmerby]

Don't forget that multiple units with all/most axles powered can accelerate faster per HP than a locomotive and carriages of the same power. So directly comparing HST and Class 800 power ratings isn't quite the full story.  

Except there are AFAIK (DT-M-M-T-M-T-M-M-DT) only 5 powered cars out of nine.

Still more than an HST but nowhere near "all"

 

Doesn't make up for the lack of horsepower when climbing hills on diesel power.

If the motors are fully energised under the wires I make the total 5600hp (if my figure for 20x280hp motors is correct!) compared to only 3750hp when using diesel mode on the low rated version

 

Keith

Edited October 25, 2016 by melmerby

[pete_mcfarlane]

I suspect that the figure on diesel is less than 3750hp, as some of the engine output will be taken for heating, aircon and lights. Unless you turn the aircon off whilst going up a hill to get slightly more power (like in my old Ford Ka......). It also occurred to me that the aircon load will probably vary depending on how warm it is. 

 

On the other hand they're supposed to be lighter than a HST (which is fine until you find that the your weight has crept up between original design and finished product whilst the engine output is fixed). 

 

800 101 has just gone through Northallerton on diesel power (tested on electric last night) and despite a clear road through to York, its' speed was well below the normal HST level on the same stretch. 

Another nugget from Wikipedia is that the maximum speed on diesel is 100mph. If true, that might explain the lower speed. 

 

I wonder if the carriages without engines are fitted 'for but not with' in case they really have got their sums wrong and need to add more power.

[rs4]

I saw the set at York last night, the acceleration is rapid. The fastest get away I've ever witnessed.

 

It was in diesel mode. Pretty quiet .... unfortunately.

 

Nice looking bit of kit, I can only hope the virgin EC livery is changed before they are introduced. FOUL.

 

[Siberian Snooper]

What speeds do the HST's achieve over the banks?

 

I'm not sure, but it must be pretty close too line speed as there is no noticeable acceleration when they go over the top.

[rs4]

The rapid departure from York on diesel power.

 

[melmerby]

 

Another nugget from Wikipedia is that the maximum speed on diesel is 100mph. If true, that might explain the lower speed. 

 

Also quoted somewhere is a maximum gradient of 2.7% or 1:37 which must put them on the limit in several places.

 

What happened to the idea of providing more than minimum required power as a contingency?

 

Keith

Edited October 26, 2016 by melmerby

[Mark Saunders]

800 101 has just gone through Northallerton on diesel power (tested on electric last night) and despite a clear road through to York, its' speed was well below the normal HST level on the same stretch. Slow enough that I noticed some coaches have inside bearing bogies as Voyagers and others outside bearings as Super Voyagers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

According to Realtime Trains It was routed via the Up Slow so would only be doing a maximum of 70 mph!