Class 800 - Updates

[Talltim]

There was a recent case brought by the family of a cyclist in Bristol who fell off into the water of The dock and unfortunately drowned. The court said that an adult should be aware of the dangers of cycling near a drop into water and the claim was denied.

[phil-b259]

And the judge who took the case coming to the conclusion that common sense did not apply. You would expect your coffee to be hot when served, after all.

 

 

Not these days - I'm getting rather fed up of walking into a 'coffee shop' and being confronted with a large number of fancy hot and cold beverages containing coffee beans - not one of which is actually called called 'coffee'

[jjb1970]

There was a recent case brought by the family of a cyclist in Bristol who fell off into the water of The dock and unfortunately drowned. The court said that an adult should be aware of the dangers of cycling near a drop into water and the claim was denied.

 

Yes yes yes, but that doesn't fit with the narrative of elf'n safety gone mad and a legal system and judiciary which is devoid of any sense. While there are vexatious legal cases, for the most part judges are an awful lot more switched on and sensible than most people and unless people have an understanding of the full details of a case it is very easy to arrive at wrong conclusions about resulting judgements.

[Davexoc]

Because the law demands that you cannot replace one danger with another.

 

In other words the danger of being electrocuted cannot be swapped exchanged for the danger that you will knock your head open when you fall!

 

The law demands you fix the original problem - i.e. make it hard to climb the cables in the first place as then neither the possibility of electrocution nor falling will occur.

In either case, if someone is that stupid to attempt it and they kill themselves, that's their problem. In nature it is called natural selection....

[Geoff Endacott]

I am concerned that if safety regulations make the railways more expensive then people will choose to travel by road instead and that is much more dangerous.

 

Which is safer for the population as a whole, the IET with its suspect connector cables or a replacement bus service?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Coryton]

Yes yes yes, but that doesn't fit with the narrative of elf'n safety gone mad and a legal system and judiciary which is devoid of any sense. While there are vexatious legal cases, for the most part judges are an awful lot more switched on and sensible than most people and unless people have an understanding of the full details of a case it is very easy to arrive at wrong conclusions about resulting judgements.

 

I think the problem, though, is that a lot of behaviour is based on the perception of the legal system, not the reality.

[Mark Saunders]

I am concerned that if safety regulations make the railways more expensive then people will choose to travel by road instead and that is much more dangerous.

 

Which is safer for the population as a whole, the IET with its suspect connector cables or a replacement bus service?

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Rather like the rise in road deaths in the USA post 9/11 World Trade Centre attack and many decided it was unsafe to fly!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

There was an 800 out and about in Doncaster today.  Headed south, then came back a short time later.  

 

One or two local spotters seemed quite pleased.  

 

<edit>  maybe it was an 801.  I wasn't that interested.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Gwiwer]

Because the law demands that you cannot replace one danger with another.

 

In other words the danger of being electrocuted cannot be swapped exchanged for the danger that you will knock your head open when you fall!

 

The law demands you fix the original problem - i.e. make it hard to climb the cables in the first place as then neither the possibility of electrocution nor falling will occur.

 

The Law requires that steps be taken in descending order to mitigate risk.

 

If you cannot completely eliminate the risk (i.e. the cables are needed and must go somewhere) can you move the hazard to a safer place?  (Probably not - the cables won't fit underneath)

If you cannot move the risk to a safer place can you reduce it my some means? (No - all of those cables are required)

If you cannot reduce the hazard can you physically prevent people coming into contact with it?  (Perhaps - London Underground / TfL fits capes between the cars to prevent accidental falls and intentional riding between cars apart from the brand-new S-stock which already has full-width through gangways.  Something similar might be an answer for the 800-series)

If you cannot physically prevent people coming into contact with it can you warn people of the risk? (Yes - with bright yellow stickers, probably, on the 800-series)

And if you cannot warn people of the risk is it a risk you are prepared to accept in terms of possible consequence?  (That is for the Powers That Be to determine)

 

Risk is a factor of probability and consequence.  If there is a high probability of something occurring with severe (fatal) consequence then the risk would be eliminated if at all possible.  If there is only a minimal risk of an occurrence and the chances are that any consequence would be no injury, though perhaps a date in court, then it may not be considered necessary to take any action at all.  If an event occurs which is off the scale of acceptable risk then a new risk assessment might be required.  That in turn may conclude that either or both of the probability / severity has increased.  Which in turn might require action which was not thought necessary before.  This seems to be what is happening with the climb risk on the 800-series following the Manchester Pendolino incident.

[Coryton]

Risk is a factor of probability and consequence.  If there is a high probability of something occurring with severe (fatal) consequence then the risk would be eliminated if at all possible.  If there is only a minimal risk of an occurrence and the chances are that any consequence would be no injury, though perhaps a date in court, then it may not be considered necessary to take any action at all.  If an event occurs which is off the scale of acceptable risk then a new risk assessment might be required.  That in turn may conclude that either or both of the probability / severity has increased.  Which in turn might require action which was not thought necessary before.  This seems to be what is happening with the climb risk on the 800-series following the Manchester Pendolino incident.

 

Though it's a bit difficult to conclude anything about probability from a single event, other than that it's been shown to be greater than zero.

[Gwiwer]

Though it's a bit difficult to conclude anything about probability from a single event, other than that it's been shown to be greater than zero.

 

Absolutely.  And this is where the experience of risk managers comes in.  It is also an area where the test in a court of law is "What would a reasonable person do?".  A reasonable person would be very likely to leave well alone the cables between the cars and not attempt to use them as a ladder to reach the roof in immediate proximity to the high-voltage live wires.  Those are already warned of and have been for years with versions of the "Overhead Live Wires" plate and orange line.

[multivac]

Because the law demands that you cannot replace one danger with another.

 

In other words the danger of being electrocuted cannot be swapped exchanged for the danger that you will knock your head open when you fall!

 

The law demands you fix the original problem - i.e. make it hard to climb the cables in the first place as then neither the possibility of electrocution nor falling will occur.

 

Put a flexible full width cover between the coaches simples. Oh hang on can't do that it might come off and hit someone at speed. 

I don't envy the Japanese designers of trains for the British market."You want us to stop people climbing onto the train? Why would they do that we have given them seats inside" "Yes"  "Well just tell them not to like we do". A different attitude to following rules I guess.

 

You cannot remove all danger from some situations, so change the law in the long run. As for they lack of decent catering on some of the new trains, which is down to whoever wrote the spec, but the short term answer is buy the food before you get on. It's a pity food at stations costs too much.

Have the maker's fixed the alleged problems with the poorly shielded signalling system yet?

Edited October 21, 2018 by multivac

[ess1uk]

Have the maker's fixed the alleged problems with the poorly shielded signalling system yet?

What makes you think that’s an overnight fix?

[jjb1970]

One of the principal determinants in UK H&S legislation is the concept of whether something is reasonably foreseeable. This concept is a large part of why the HSAW 1974 was so successful as it drove a pro-active and analytical approach to risk management as opposed to industry following reactive proscriptive rules. The test of reasonable foreseeable can incorporate several approaches including asking the question is a suitably competent person could be expected to anticipate something however if something has happened before then it is not tenable to deny that it was reasonably foreseeable so any arguments about whether it could have been foreseen become moot.

 

In this case I believe the law is acting as it should in forcing Hitachi to manage risk. I think the authorities are trying to be pragmatic in demanding a fix without causing utter meltdown to GWR, whether that is right or wrong we could debate but again it indicates that far from elf'n safety gone madness that authorities do try to apply pragmatism and balance conflicting demands in such cases.

[iands]

 

Have the maker's fixed the alleged problems with the poorly shielded signalling system yet?

 

What makes you think it is "alleged"?

[jim.snowdon]

Have the maker's fixed the alleged problems with the poorly shielded signalling system yet?

What makes you think it is "alleged"?

Has the signalling industry/NR done anything about making equipment that is better able to operate in an electrically noisy environment?

 

Jim

[Jonboy]

What makes you think it is "alleged"?

Has the signalling industry/NR done anything about making equipment that is better able to operate in an electrically noisy environment?

Jim

 

Where the constraints of the signal system known about, and if so was that built constraint int the specification when the trains were tendered, or were any incompatiblities unknown to all parties involved?

[iands]

Has the signalling industry/NR done anything about making equipment that is better able to operate in an electrically noisy environment?

 

Jim

 

The short answer is yes. But did Hitachi (in the case of the 8xx class) do everything to they could in their designs to reduce/keep to a minimum the EMC emissions from the rolling stock? 

[iands]

Has the signalling industry/NR done anything about making equipment that is better able to operate in an electrically noisy environment?

Jim

 

Where the constraints of the signal system known about, and if so was that built constraint int the specification when the trains were tendered, or were any incompatiblities unknown to all parties involved?

 

Previous posts have indicated that some constraints/problems were known about previously but overtime and with experienced/knowledgeable people moving on/retiring etc., these "knowns" became forgotten.

[The Pilotman]

Not these days - I'm getting rather fed up of walking into a 'coffee shop' and being confronted with a large number of fancy hot and cold beverages containing coffee beans - not one of which is actually called called 'coffee'

I believe what you require is called a flat white these days.

[caradoc]

I try and keep an open mind on the merits or otherwise of new trains compared to old. However yesterday I travelled between Oxford and Alton (for the Mid-Hants Gala), using at various stages Classes 221/444/450 and 800.The roughest ride was on a Class 800, including over the Up Main from Didcot East to Reading. The smoothest ride, to my surprise, was on a Class 444 from Basingstoke to Woking.

[Gwiwer]

I believe what you require is called a flat white these days.

Yes it is. But why does it only come in one fairly small size in this country? Go to Australia and it’s not only the same price as all other regular coffees but is offered in the same choice of sizes.

 

And no, it is not possible to get one on an 800. Instant coffee only (a backward plunge from the HST coffee machines) and with those ridiculous sachets of milk the contents of which goes anywhere but in the cup ehen opened

[Coryton]

I believe what you require is called a flat white these days.

 

I thought it was this: https://elementgames.co.uk/paints-hobby-and-scenery/paints-hobby-and-scenery-by-manufacturer/tamiya/tamiya-mini-acrylic/acrylic-mini-xf-2-flat-white?d=22&gclid=CjwKCAjwx7DeBRBJEiwA9MeX_BEW3XxBwNUsuRyIQ_Ujjc_OGNPoLcTOwPoCcwsaIEESiST34hk1YxoCwOIQAvD_BwE

[RJS1977]

 As for they lack of decent catering on some of the new trains, which is down to whoever wrote the spec, but the short term answer is buy the food before you get on. It's a pity food at stations costs too much.

 

 

There's always the BITE card

 

https://www.bitecard.co.uk/locations

[Davexoc]

Yes it is. But why does it only come in one fairly small size in this country? Go to Australia and it’s not only the same price as all other regular coffees but is offered in the same choice of sizes.

Try Muffin Break, three sizes available.....

 

They must be the only ones that did the risk assessment and decide that if someone wants that much caffiene, to let them have it, buzzin' and their on decision.