Class 800 - Updates

[Ron Ron Ron]

Goodness knows what the heads of the parent Hitachi company, back in Japan think about all this and the damage to their reputation it might cause them.

 

Hitachi are renowned for producing quality trains in Japan, that are well built and run reliably.

They have had a large involvement with producing the various models of Shinkansen high speed trains over many years, some of which have been built for and run successfully in export markets.

Even in the UK, they supplied and maintain a very successful fleet of HS trains, in the form of the Javelins (despite some early teething issues).

But here with the European built Class 800 series, there are serious problems.

 

Although the body shells and major structural components are made in Japan, we are told that most of the trains sub components, traction elements, power supplies, interiors and systems (80% of value), are supplied by UK and other EU based manufacturers.

Apart from the handful of pre-series trains, final assembly has taken place at a brand new facility (Newton Aycliffe) with a newly recruited workforce.

To top it all, some of the 800 series fleet (most of the 802's) are being assembled at an Italian facility, with a terrible past reputation. 

 

So where does the fault lie?

Those who specified the trains?

Various or certain sub contractors?

At the assembly plant?

 

 

.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Gwiwer]

The GWR sets also have reservations incompatible between sets and between IETs and HSTs. The standard option seems to be to simply cancel the reservations and allow a free-for-all.

 

That is at best asking to have a train-load of annoyed passengers some of whom might end up standing rather than occupying seats they had reserved.

 

These issues need addressing. When two five-car sets replace a nine-car there is at least a little more capacity but too often a single five is turned out instead of a nine or HST. And that is a recipe for serious overcrowding.

[caradoc]

Regarding unplanned replacement of GWR HSTs by 800s, or vice versa, presumably the seating layouts are so different that simply transferring the reservations would be impossible ?

Maybe LNER would like to have trains with destination displays and reservation systems that work reliably?

 

Travelled on some LNER services this week and many vehicles, both HST and Mark 4, now have electronic reservation displays above the seats (which are quite easy to read), however paper reservation tickets were in place as well.

[Mark Saunders]

Prereserved seats and advance purchase tickets!

 

Too many people just can't be bothered to find their seats and leaves those without wandering around looking for an unreserved one!

 

Talking to one of my former colleagues he would like to be able to treat these as travelling without a valid ticket for the chaos they cause!

[Gwiwer]

Regarding unplanned replacement of GWR HSTs by 800s, or vice versa, presumably the seating layouts are so different that simply transferring the reservations would be impossible.

Correct.

 

Differing numbers of seats, differing configurations, more tables in the IET, different coach lettering. Reservations simply do not match. And for the same reason the IET electronic signs are not in use except when the correct set is working its booked duty.

 

In practice (and based upon experience with Cross Country and Virgin West Coast) those little screens are universally ignored and often not even seen. Everyone looks for tickets on the seat backs. When you are blocking the aisle waiting for the screen to scroll through several reservations for the length of a journey whilst hoping you might find a seat you are also inconveniencing your fellow passengers and can be delaying the train if there is a queue to board.

 

KISS should apply. Paper labels are understood, placed where passengers expect them and are quicker to read.

[Gwiwer]

Prereserved seats and advance purchase tickets!

 

Too many people just can't be bothered to find their seats and leaves those without wandering around looking for an unreserved one!

 

Talking to one of my former colleagues he would like to be able to treat these as travelling without a valid ticket for the chaos they cause!

It is a condition of travel that when using an Advance or other discounted ticket which includes a specific seat being reserved that the passenger travels in that seat. This could be enforced but is generally not pursued. The gain (vacating one seat in favour of another) is offset by potential inconvenience (moving luggage possibly through several busy carriages) and reaction (no conductor wants to be faced with an argumentative or disruptive customer; in a worst-case scenario this can result in assault and cancellation of the entire service)

So long as the passenger is travelling on their booked service there should be few issues. GW conductors have often been seen removing reservation tickets shortly after departure from a station if the seat is unclaimed which then releases it for unreserved use.

 

In addition should anyone be delayed by a late-running or cancelled connection and miss their booked train they are entitled to travel by the next available service (though the reservation will not apply) meaning a few reserved seats go unclaimed for this reason.

[Covkid]

Regarding unplanned replacement of GWR HSTs by 800s, or vice versa, presumably the seating layouts are so different that simply transferring the reservations would be impossible ?

 

Travelled on some LNER services this week and many vehicles, both HST and Mark 4, now have electronic reservation displays above the seats (which are quite easy to read), however paper reservation tickets were in place as well.

 

Differing numbers of seats, differing configurations, more tables in the IET, different coach lettering. Reservations simply do not match. And for the same reason the IET electronic signs are not in use except when the correct set is working its booked duty.

 

In practice (and based upon experience with Cross Country and Virgin West Coast) those little screens are universally ignored and often not even seen. Everyone looks for tickets on the seat backs. When you are blocking the aisle waiting for the screen to scroll through several reservations for the length of a journey whilst hoping you might find a seat you are also inconveniencing your fellow passengers and can be delaying the train if there is a queue to board.

 

KISS should apply. Paper labels are understood, placed where passengers expect them and are quicker to read.

 

Trying to be fair though, theoretically all this should be over by the Spring of next year when HSTs are banished (except for the 2+4s in the West). Once the GWR have nothing but IET for "intercity" travel they simply pin Agility down to the contract  of X number of trains delivered at X number of depots, formed of X number of vehicles.

 

It was always going to be a shambles to migrate from "go anywhere" 2+8 HSTs to a fleet of four different kinds of IETs owned by two different companies -  5 car 800/0, 9 car 800/3, 5 car 802/0 and 9 car 802/1. Whether GWR Control will be able to actually rigidly keep 800s and 802s from straying onto each others diagrams will be seen in due course,  but seat reservations theoretically should become a totally Agility problem on the 800s. .        

[The Stationmaster]

Trying to be fair though, theoretically all this should be over by the Spring of next year when HSTs are banished (except for the 2+4s in the West). Once the GWR have nothing but IET for "intercity" travel they simply pin Agility down to the contract  of X number of trains delivered at X number of depots, formed of X number of vehicles.

 

It was always going to be a shambles to migrate from "go anywhere" 2+8 HSTs to a fleet of four different kinds of IETs owned by two different companies -  5 car 800/0, 9 car 800/3, 5 car 802/0 and 9 car 802/1. Whether GWR Control will be able to actually rigidly keep 800s and 802s from straying onto each others diagrams will be seen in due course,  but seat reservations theoretically should become a totally Agility problem on the 800s. .        

 

But don't overlook the fact that there are more than one kind of 2+8 HSTs running on GWR services and going back a good few years I think we were running around 4 different HSTs formations on the Region.  So really varying formations is nothing new, is not a new management task, is not a new problem to solve, but is simply a situation which has to be managed.

 

The current problems problems seem to stem from the fact that at present Hitachi haven't been able to solve their part of the problem (i.e turning out the correct formation for any particular diagram), haven't solved all the reliability issues, haven't solved all the design/manufacturing issues, and were probably never told in the first place that not only did trains have to come off depot with the correct number of vehicles but they also had to be presented the right way round. However if the units are suffering wheelslip problems at this time of year it's hardly Hitachi's fault and is 100% down to Network Rail for its failure to better manage (or even manage at all in some places) lineside vegetation issues 

[Ian Hargrave]

Correct.

Differing numbers of seats, differing configurations, more tables in the IET, different coach lettering. Reservations simply do not match. And for the same reason the IET electronic signs are not in use except when the correct set is working its booked duty.

In practice (and based upon experience with Cross Country and Virgin West Coast) those little screens are universally ignored and often not even seen. Everyone looks for tickets on the seat backs. When you are blocking the aisle waiting for the screen to scroll through several reservations for the length of a journey whilst hoping you might find a seat you are also inconveniencing your fellow passengers and can be delaying the train if there is a queue to board.

KISS should apply. Paper labels are understood, placed where passengers expect them and are quicker to read.

Right on...In theory.In practice however....My train travel experience is mainly with XC using 220/1 or 170. The former have electronic over head signs,the general observance of which is serendipity and one coch in the unit is usually unreserved...theoretically anyway.

The 170's differ as they are not similarly equipped and rely upon the daft and impractical seat back ticketing process which at peak times puts impossible demands upon train crew.A week ago ,travelling from Cheltenham to Burton on Cardiff-Nottingham 170 service,we sat in a near empty train in a4-facing bay,only to be turfed out by a party of four at University claiming the seats.No visible signs of seat reservation were anywhere displayed,We did not ask for proof of possession or argue and found seats nearby anyway. I find this frankly irritatingly unnecessary and silly.

 

Contrast this with an experience a few weeks ago travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke on the 17:35 Euston 390 service.

The usual scenario applied...you get the drift.....guy on the window seat and his clutter on the aisle seat. Upward glance at the display records the inside only as reserved to Euston and outside vacant. Asked him to move his clutter so that I could have the aisle seat.He immediately picked up his clutter and fled down the train never to reappear. Hence the two of us had a peaceful zip down to Stoke undisturbed by the phantom seat reservists.Happens all the time....

[Davexoc]

Goodness knows what the heads of the parent Hitachi company, back in Japan think about all this and the damage to their reputation it might cause them.

 

Hitachi are renowned for producing quality trains in Japan, that are well built and run reliably.

They have had a large involvement with producing the various models of Shinkansen high speed trains over many years, some of which have been built for and run successfully in export markets.

Even in the UK, they supplied and maintain a very successful fleet of HS trains, in the form of the Javelins (despite some early teething issues).

But here with the European built Class 800 series, there are serious problems.

 

Although the body shells and major structural components are made in Japan, we are told that most of the trains sub components, traction elements, power supplies, interiors and systems (80% of value), are supplied by UK and other EU based manufacturers.

Apart from the handful of pre-series trains, final assembly has taken place at a brand new facility (Newton Aycliffe) with a newly recruited workforce.

To top it all, some of the 800 series fleet (most of the 802's) are being assembled at an Italian facility, with a terrible past reputation. 

 

So where does the fault lie?

Those who specified the trains?

Various or certain sub contractors?

At the assembly plant?

.

The Japanese and European work cultures are somewhat different, having worked for a Japanese manufacturer in the UK. They have this thing where they don't like to say 'no' regardless of the outcome. So when asked "Can you do this, will it work?" they collectively will say yes and plough on regardless.

Having also seen how American/German/Italian manufacturing (doesn't) work together, all these problems with cross border stuff is not surprising.

One thing though, some years ago it was said that a UK built Honda Civic was a superior product to a Japanese built one.

 

Dave

[Ron Ron Ron]

...One thing though, some years ago it was said that a UK built Honda Civic was a superior product to a Japanese built one.

 

 

My memory is a bit murky and vague on that one, but I think at the time (it was some 20 years ago IIRC?), it was more to do with local market differences and UK/EU legal requirements, rather than QC.

e.g. Rust proofing, thicker window glass, crash testing, better quality interior materials etc.

Although the Swindon Build quality is supposed to be very good.

 

 

 

.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[RJS1977]

 

Although the Swindon Build quality is supposed to be very good.

 

 

 

.

 

It always was - shortly after Nationalisation someone compared BR's  tolerances for locos in 'new' condition and discovered that they were very similar to Swindon's definition of 'worn out'!

 

And let's not forget that a 70-plus-year old Dean Goods managed to outperform a brand new BR Standard on the Swindon test plant!

[Arun Sharma]

It always was - shortly after Nationalisation someone compared BR's  tolerances for locos in 'new' condition and discovered that they were very similar to Swindon's definition of 'worn out'!

 

And let's not forget that a 70-plus-year old Dean Goods managed to outperform a brand new BR Standard on the Swindon test plant!

Wasn't #4487 referring to the build quality of Swindon-built Hondas at the South Marston plant rather than steam engines?

[Covkid]

.My train travel experience is mainly with XC using 220/1 or 170. The former have electronic over head signs,the general observance of which is serendipity and one coch in the unit is usually unreserved...theoretically anyway.

The 170's differ as they are not similarly equipped and rely upon the daft and impractical seat back ticketing process which at peak times puts impossible demands upon train crew.A week ago ,travelling from Cheltenham to Burton on Cardiff-Nottingham 170 service,we sat in a near empty train in a4-facing bay,only to be turfed out by a party of four at University claiming the seats.No visible signs of seat reservation were anywhere displayed,We did not ask for proof of possession or argue and found seats nearby anyway. I find this frankly irritatingly unnecessary and silly.

 

Contrast this with an experience a few weeks ago travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke on the 17:35 Euston 390 service.

The usual scenario applied...you get the drift.....guy on the window seat and his clutter on the aisle seat. Upward glance at the display records the inside only as reserved to Euston and outside vacant. Asked him to move his clutter so that I could have the aisle seat.He immediately picked up his clutter and fled down the train never to reappear. Hence the two of us had a peaceful zip down to Stoke undisturbed by the phantom seat reservists.Happens all the time....

 

You are now entering another area of debate.  Should Roscos update the onboard equipment on their assets - even irregularly ?

The 170s are around 20 years old, and because they are DMUs, are likely to be around for at least another ten years.  The XC franchise took the ex MML 170/1s and some of the ex CT 170/3s 170/5s and 170/6s in 2007 when they were less than ten years old. As DfT have stalled on the XC franchise, and a series of Direct awards are likely to take Arriva through to 2024, with fleet enhancement / replacement doubtful, you maybe could be asking whether the Rosco should be enhancing the passenger environment without expecting the TOC to arrange and fund the upgrade ?       

[Ken.W]

Travelled on some LNER services this week and many vehicles, both HST and Mark 4, now have electronic reservation displays above the seats (which are quite easy to read), however paper reservation tickets were in place as well.

 

Announced a couple of days ago, the electronic reservations official 'go live' from 8th November, and will replace the paper reservation labels then.

 

It is, apparently, an upgraded system from what Virgin introduced on VWC and XC (it was VTEC that started the introduction of it while they were here)

As well as the displays, which are supposed to be easier to read than previous versions, they have "traffic lights" indicators, Green for unreserved, Yellow reserved for part of the journey, and Red reserved throughout.

Also, although reservations are supposed to become available to book even while the train's running, as on VWC / XC, the system is able to detect which seats are occupied to avoid the situation where you board, find an unreserved seat, only to have somone then reserve it and claim it half-way through your journey

Edited October 28, 2018 by Ken.W

[Richard E]

As well as the displays, which are supposed to be easier to read than previous versions, they have "traffic lights" indicators, Green for unreserved, Yellow reserved for part of the journey, and Red reserved throughout.

 

On a recent journey on LNER (I travelled in First Class) early this month the electronic reservation displays were fitted and working on the outward journey but there wasn't a 'traffic light' indicator that I saw. On the return trip the system was switched off. I found the display fairly easy to read but as it is an LCD display I do wonder how visible they will be in artificial light.

[Geoff Endacott]

Wasn't #4487 referring to the build quality of Swindon-built Hondas at the South Marston plant rather than steam engines?

 

I expect a lot of the staff at Honda in Swindon had grandparents who worked for the GWR. It must be something in the genes.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Ken.W]

On a recent journey on LNER (I travelled in First Class) early this month the electronic reservation displays were fitted and working on the outward journey but there wasn't a 'traffic light' indicator that I saw. On the return trip the system was switched off. I found the display fairly easy to read but as it is an LCD display I do wonder how visible they will be in artificial light.

They’ve only been on at times for testing. As posted above, they actually come into use on 8th November

[RJS1977]

I expect a lot of the staff at Honda in Swindon had grandparents who worked for the GWR. It must be something in the genes.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

And one of the reasons Honda located the plant in Swindon was the availability of skilled engineers after the Works closed.

[Gwiwer]

Currently unsure of the cause so this might be misplaced but Paddington is again on shut-down with the overheads down “between Hayes & Harlington and Ealing Broadway”. GWR and TfL are advising customers to not attempt travel for the rest of today.

[mdvle]

You are now entering another area of debate.  Should Roscos update the onboard equipment on their assets - even irregularly ?

The 170s are around 20 years old, and because they are DMUs, are likely to be around for at least another ten years.  The XC franchise took the ex MML 170/1s and some of the ex CT 170/3s 170/5s and 170/6s in 2007 when they were less than ten years old. As DfT have stalled on the XC franchise, and a series of Direct awards are likely to take Arriva through to 2024, with fleet enhancement / replacement doubtful, you maybe could be asking whether the Rosco should be enhancing the passenger environment without expecting the TOC to arrange and fund the upgrade ?       

 

While I agree that in an ideal world the various owners would be doing periodic updates to their fleets, look at it from the Rosco side.

 

The fleet has been leased as is, why pay to upgrade instead of just taking it as profit?  Unless there is a threat by the TOC (now or future) to instead lease/buy a different DMU, there in no incentive to take reduced profits to pay for upgrades.

 

Until a TOC pulls a SWR to put some fear/competition into the DMU market there really is no incentive for a Rosco to behave differently if they can guarantee to lease the equipment as is for another 6 years or more.

[black and decker boy]

It has been stated elsewhere by respected journalists that the IET is running on GWR under a Quslified Acceptance Certifucate. In other words it is not fully accepted and is running under certain conditions. Hitachi, after a year of running have not resolved the issues causing the imposition of conditions.

 

It is said that DfT (and their operator) do not want to let Hitachi off the hook again by doing the same on the ECML so will not be accepting trains until all issues are fully resolved and an un-qualified certificate is obtained.

 

In terms of the 2 car voyager mentioned a few pages back, this is now reformed as a 4 car set and back in service.

[Ken.W]

It has been stated elsewhere by respected journalists that the IET is running on GWR under a Quslified Acceptance Certifucate. In other words it is not fully accepted and is running under certain conditions. Hitachi, after a year of running have not resolved the issues causing the imposition of conditions.

 

It is said that DfT (and their operator) do not want to let Hitachi off the hook again by doing the same on the ECML so will not be accepting trains until all issues are fully resolved and an un-qualified certificate is obtained.

 

Possibly so, as I said in post #4474, the LNER statement regarding the delay in introducing them to service did state some (unspecified) "train design technical issues which Hitachi have not yet successfully demonstrated". Thse are in addition to the known issues of signalling interference and the inter-vehicle cables, so could indicate what's refered to here.

[exet1095]

I discovered an interesting issue on 800 020 this morning. After the pantograph went up at Didcot the electrical interference received by my iPhone through the charger made it unworkable. Home button clicking, random apps opening when different bits of the screen were touched, and impossible to type. Unplugged it and all was well. No wonder it interferes with signalling!

[RJS1977]

That sounds like my phone anyway!