Zomboid Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Well us grumbling on here isn't going to change anything, but a bit of a fuss in the mainstream media stands a better chance of getting a "movement" going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2018 Well us grumbling on here isn't going to change anything, but a bit of a fuss in the mainstream media stands a better chance of getting a "movement" going.I caught a commentator on Radio 4 mentioning the subject of hard new train seats it this lunchtime with a story that a garage mechanic had told her that if you wanted a soft seat you buy a French car rather than a German one as the French have less padding in their Derriers than the Germans so have softer seats. So it is obviously a topic that is being discussed by the chattering classes. Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 This it what the new seats ought to resemble http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/LocomotivesAndRollingStock/CollectionItem?objid=1983-7002&pageNo=16#panel-2 . Geoff Endacott 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 This it what the new seats ought to resemble http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/LocomotivesAndRollingStock/CollectionItem?objid=1983-7002&pageNo=16#panel-2 . Geoff Endacott Ooooh, side facing seats, is that a Crossrail 345, dont know what all the fuss is about. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 This it what the new seats ought to resemble http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/LocomotivesAndRollingStock/CollectionItem?objid=1983-7002&pageNo=16#panel-2 . Geoff Endacott People complain about the price of commuting now, how much would the fare have to go up, to get seats like that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 People complain about the price of commuting now, how much would the fare have to go up, to get seats like that? One travels for free. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 One travels for free. Probably, if one lives at Buck House and or Windsor, but then the poor tax payer foots the fare. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D854_Tiger Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I caught a commentator on Radio 4 mentioning the subject of hard new train seats it this lunchtime with a story that a garage mechanic had told her that if you wanted a soft seat you buy a French car rather than a German one as the French have less padding in their Derriers than the Germans so have softer seats. So it is obviously a topic that is being discussed by the chattering classes. Jamie French cars always had the best suspension, as well, as their rural roads aren't too good. I was once advised by a car salesman that I should buy an Italian car (preferably the one he was selling) because they're designed to be driven by Italians and therefore have to be designed to take plenty of punishment. Having been to Italy and seen their driving, I couldn't fault that logic. I think it is good that train designers are being pulled up on their seat designs, about time, new trains cost millions, mostly our millions in taxes, and therefore we should never accept the ship being ruined for a ha'porth of tar. Aren't they supposed to consult on these things before they build them and, if not, why not. Is it really such a big ask to expect the seats to be comfortable and to provide a decent view from the window. I notice class 150s are still turning up on the Heart of Wales line, four hours sitting in one of those must be (is) purgatory, but they are essentially a good train but one that has always been needlessly spoiled by the interiors. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) ...I think it is good that train designers are being pulled up on their seat designs, about time, new trains cost millions, mostly our millions in taxes..... ....Aren't they supposed to consult on these things before they build them and, if not, why not. What taxes have been spent on trains? I don't recall the government, DafT etc, having bought or paid for any trains. The seats...they are not designed or made by the train manufacturers. Seats are designed and supplied from seat manufacturing companies. There are a number of these companies who make seats specifically for the railway industry. Presumably, whoever specified or decided on the seats for the Class 800 series, or any other new train for that matter, saw and tried out various options, even if price was one of the deciding factors. . Edited February 23, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 One travels for free. Actually not - in a long and distant past I used to put together quite a lot of the information for the bills for Her trains. Charged in a mileage basis, including the ECS at a lower rate, plus various extras such as meals and newspapers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 What taxes have been spent on trains? I don't recall the government, DafT etc, having bought or paid for any trains. The seats...they are not designed or made by the train manufacturers. Seats are designed and supplied from seat manufacturing companies. There are a number of these companies who make seats specifically for the railway industry. Presumably, whoever specified or decided on the seats for the Class 800 series, or any other new train for that matter, saw and tried out various options, even if price was one of the deciding factors.. I have been led to believe that the DfT did specify the seats for the 800's, not the TOCs who will be using them (and in the case of the ECML, there has been a franchise change since the IETs were specified - and there may be another one before they are in service). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I have been led to believe that the DfT did specify the seats for the 800's, not the TOCs who will be using them (and in the case of the ECML, there has been a franchise change since the IETs were specified - and there may be another one before they are in service). And at least some of the funding for them came from DfT (presumably on the grounds that increasing capacity on rail meant less money needing to be spent on roads). Unfortunately the pay-back from that was that DfT insisted on setting the specification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I have been led to believe that the DfT did specify the seats for the 800's, not the TOCs who will be using them ..... Indeed. In addition to specifying the trains, the DafT/ Government placed the order too. Some may find it a little confusing that the DafT/Government specified and ordered trains that they won't be buying, won't be owning and won't be paying for. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) And at least some of the funding for them came from DfT ..... The DafT funded the IEP (i.e. the programme, not the trains) and indirectly, funded the infrastructure improvements needed to accommodate the new trains, through their grants to NR. The trains though, are owned by Agility and have been paid for by the financing consortium who are bankrolling them. However, it looks like the DafT are having to pay for the non-contract changes and mods being made, such as the power upgrades etc. . Edited February 24, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 The very idea of government deciding to take a lead in developing new trains which are to be financed privately, owned by a ROSCO and operated by a TOC is bizarre really. Especially when it gets to the point of government racking up variation orders which they are then financially liable for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 The very idea of government deciding to take a lead in developing new trains which are to be financed privately, owned by a ROSCO and operated by a TOC is bizarre really. Especially when it gets to the point of government racking up variation orders which they are then financially liable for. I don't know. I don't think there's anything that odd in the principle of a government procuring trains, obtaining private finance to purchase them and then contracting a private company to operate them - and in any case plenty of TOCs operate trains they had no say in ordering. What is perhaps bizarre is the pretence that the railway is run by the private sector when all of this is going on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 The very idea of government deciding to take a lead in developing new trains which are to be financed privately, owned by a ROSCO and operated by a TOC is bizarre really. Especially when it gets to the point of government racking up variation orders which they we as tax payers are then financially liable for. Edited to highlight who will actually be paying! I hope you dont mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 Edited to highlight who will actually be paying! I hope you dont mind. That reminds me of a scene in Yes Minister (or was it Yes Prime Minister?) where Hacker makes a comment that it isn't the Treasury's money, it's the taxpayers' money, to which he's told "Yes but they don't see it like that". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) I don't know. I don't think there's anything that odd in the principle of a government procuring trains, obtaining private finance to purchase them and then contracting a private company to operate them....... In this case the government hasn't obtained any finance to purchase the trains. It's Agility that has obtained the finance to build, own and maintain the trains. The government have procured trains they haven't bought and don't own. . Edited February 24, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 And left to their own devices, it's highly unlikely that anything resembling the 800 series would have been bought by any TOC/ROSCO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted February 24, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 24, 2018 Edited to highlight who will actually be paying! I hope you dont mind. Quite right, it's too easy to fall into the mindset of thinking that the money spent by government just appears out of the ether. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 And left to their own devices, it's highly unlikely that anything resembling the 800 series would have been bought by any TOC/ROSCO. I know for a fact GWR didn't want them but the 800s were foisted on them and then had to order their own trains which had to be compatible with the 800s so were a bit short on options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted February 24, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 24, 2018 I think the IEP was born out of a political conviction that the ROSCOs were corporate scam artists and a conceit and hubris that a government department could do a better job of specifying trains and procuring them than riff raff like train leasing companies or operators. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D854_Tiger Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I think the IEP was born out of a political conviction that the ROSCOs were corporate scam artists and a conceit and hubris that a government department could do a better job of specifying trains and procuring them than riff raff like train leasing companies or operators. Whatever but now after their fiasco do we believe they will ever try again, for the Anglia franchise they seem to have left it up to the TOC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) Quite right, it's too easy to fall into the mindset of thinking that the money spent by government just appears out of the ether. Quite often it does! Edited February 24, 2018 by 62613 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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