Class 800 - Updates

[Ken.W]

I foresee a problem with that system.  I join an 80X heading south at York (yes, I'm thinking a long way ahead) but am late getting to the platform and join near the rear but want a seat in 1st Class, or I'm a late boarder at the rear of the train at the Cross and want a seat in standard.  Makes no difference whichever it is of those two situations but by the time I get to where I want to sit down the lights will have gone out and I take an unoccupied seat - 100% legitimate - it's not shown as reserved for any part of the journey and no one is siting there.  So then what happens if it subsequently lights up as yellow and all other seats in the vicinity are taken? 

 

Hi Mike,

 

As described this is as fitted to the current HST/Mk4 fleet, which goes live tomorrow. The units on these are, apparently, battery powered as the lights going off's a battery saver mode. I don't know if this will apply to the 800s when (eventually?) they arrive.

 

When the lights have gone out the reservation screens are still on, so would be showing as Available for a seat not reserved for any part of the journey and should show Green when the lights come back on. For a partially reserved seat, which would have a Yellow light come on, the screen would display Available to / Reserved to xxxxx.

The reservation screens and lights use  NRS database info, and don't change according to occupancy.

 

Additionally, in the situation you describe, by the time you reach your desired seat the first scan will probably have taken place, so if you have access to the train WiFi, the 'Find a Seat' app should be showing seat availabillity for the coach.

 

Hope this helps.

 

When looking to use a seat that's only reserved later in the journey, I've found the sceens much easier to read walking past, (as they don't scoll and have larger text than previous electronic systems), and a seat available part-way will simply show ' Available to xxxx', than the existing paper labels which I have to stop and lean over each individual seat to read, and, increasingly these days, use my reading glasses to do so

[Gwiwer]

Word has reached these ears that another operational issue has arisen with the GWR sets.  Apparently two 5-car units coupled cannot be accommodated in the loop at Goonbarrow Junction.  Why is this important?  Very few trains even run that way.  

 

There is both a franchise requirement and a marketing commitment to operate through trains between Paddington and Newquay.  On summer Saturdays they cross other branch trains at Goonbarrow in order to provide something resembling a half-decent service which would otherwise be run at near three-hour intervals.  A 2+8 HST can cross a 2+8HST and this is timetabled.  But a 2x5-car 8xx cannot cross anything because of the length exceeding the loop clearing distance.

 

Unless 9-car sets can be guaranteed to Newquay (which going on present operations is not a given) then the through trains will be limited to 5-car sets which are insufficient to manage peak summer loadings on occasions.  Whilst it might be possible to have 2x5-cars divide at Par with the other unit going to Penzance (which has more stations and with greater total traffic potential than even an August Saturday at Newquay) the length of that train also exceeds the loop at Par meaning it probably cannot be split or attached in service.  

 

If only these things were though of first before ordering rolling stock which is significantly longer than the current generation trains.

[Ken.W]

Seems I'll get a first chance to try out the new reservation system tomorrow. Co-incidently, it's tomorow that, with a friend, I'm going on our planned 'farewell GW HSTs trip' I posted enquiring about HST workings earlier, so will be on the 04:44 from Newcastle, the first one from the system going live!

Using a pass I can't of course reserve, so will find out how the new system works for finding free seats.

For the main course, we're on the 10:03 from Padd to Penzance, and same train return.

 

Edit;

PS we do have reservations on the GW leg, as I've to pay for a ticket (a novel experience lol) as we're going in First, to hopefully sample the dining

Edited November 7, 2018 by Ken.W

[Gwiwer]

I hope you get your HST on the 10.03 / 16.00. It is still booked for one.

[jjb1970]

Some of the IEP issues clearly seem to be down to the original specification agreed by DafT, the classic problem of the customer getting what they ordered then realising it's not what they wanted.

[david.hill64]

Some of the IEP issues clearly seem to be down to the original specification agreed by DafT, the classic problem of the customer getting what they ordered then realising it's not what they wanted.

I'm still waiting for a computer that does what I want, not what I tell it................

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....If only these things were though of first before ordering rolling stock which is significantly longer than the current generation trains.

 

 

Some of the IEP issues clearly seem to be down to the original specification agreed by DafT, the classic problem of the customer getting what they ordered then realising it's not what they wanted.

 

The IEP recognised that there would be a number of issues resulting from the specification, including both the selection of 26 metre vehicles and the length of the trains, either in longer configurations or with combinations of the half length sets.

 

All those issues (inc. gauging etc,) were transferred to the infrastructure operator to resolve, while the IEP concentrated on procurement of the trains.

 

If there are problems with the length of the train, surely the ownership of those problems should lie with the DfT, or NR or with any decision to operate these trains on stretches of line, or routes, where they were not originally intended to go?

 

 

 

.

[andy stroud]

Word has reached these ears that another operational issue has arisen with the GWR sets.  Apparently two 5-car units coupled cannot be accommodated in the loop at Goonbarrow Junction.  Why is this important?  Very few trains even run that way.  

 

There is both a franchise requirement and a marketing commitment to operate through trains between Paddington and Newquay.  On summer Saturdays they cross other branch trains at Goonbarrow in order to provide something resembling a half-decent service which would otherwise be run at near three-hour intervals.  A 2+8 HST can cross a 2+8HST and this is timetabled.  But a 2x5-car 8xx cannot cross anything because of the length exceeding the loop clearing distance.

 

Unless 9-car sets can be guaranteed to Newquay (which going on present operations is not a given) then the through trains will be limited to 5-car sets which are insufficient to manage peak summer loadings on occasions.  Whilst it might be possible to have 2x5-cars divide at Par with the other unit going to Penzance (which has more stations and with greater total traffic potential than even an August Saturday at Newquay) the length of that train also exceeds the loop at Par meaning it probably cannot be split or attached in service.  

 

If only these things were though of first before ordering rolling stock which is significantly longer than the current generation trains.

 

I have never understood why they ordered so many 5 car sets, with many long distance trains being iether short formed as 5 coaches or operating in seperate self-contained halves, with all the resulting inconvienience to passengers. 

With the Newquay issue, is it that difficult for them to ensure that a 9 car set is provided for those particular diagrams? It probably is.

[St. Simon]

With the Newquay issue, is it that difficult for them to ensure that a 9 car set is provided for those particular diagrams? It probably is.

It isn't that difficult to make up the timetable (assuming that there is enough sets to cover the services) so that a 9-car is always booked to run the Newquay services, the real difficulty is guaranteeing to passengers and to the operators that a 9-Car will always turn up in reality, simply because of failures etc. The alternative if a 9-car isn't available for whatever reason is either a 5-car or cancel the train, both of which will draw complaint.

 

Simon

[iands]

I have never understood why they ordered so many 5 car sets, with many long distance trains being iether short formed as 5 coaches or operating in seperate self-contained halves, with all the resulting inconvienience to passengers. 

With the Newquay issue, is it that difficult for them to ensure that a 9 car set is provided for those particular diagrams? It probably is.

 

If I'm reading the Sectional Appendix correctly, a 9-car set is still too long for the loop at Goonbarrow. Providing there is no requirement to "pass" another 9-car unit at this location, this shouldn't be a problem. However, it might just mean one 9-car unit on the line to Newquay at a time.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

 

As described this is as fitted to the current HST/Mk4 fleet, which goes live tomorrow. The units on these are, apparently, battery powered as the lights going off's a battery saver mode. I don't know if this will apply to the 800s when (eventually?) they arrive.

 

When the lights have gone out the reservation screens are still on, so would be showing as Available for a seat not reserved for any part of the journey and should show Green when the lights come back on. For a partially reserved seat, which would have a Yellow light come on, the screen would display Available to / Reserved to xxxxx.

The reservation screens and lights use  NRS database info, and don't change according to occupancy.

 

Additionally, in the situation you describe, by the time you reach your desired seat the first scan will probably have taken place, so if you have access to the train WiFi, the 'Find a Seat' app should be showing seat availabillity for the coach.

 

Hope this helps.

 

When looking to use a seat that's only reserved later in the journey, I've found the sceens much easier to read walking past, (as they don't scoll and have larger text than previous electronic systems), and a seat available part-way will simply show ' Available to xxxx', than the existing paper labels which I have to stop and lean over each individual seat to read, and, increasingly these days, use my reading glasses to do so

 

Thanks for the additional info.  But the system still ignores the fact that many folk won't necessarily have access to the wifi when first joining the train plus of course more than a few of us don't even have anything to access it with in the first place!  The GWR system seems a bit more sensible in that respect.

 

Mind you anything is better than the totally barmy system on Cross Country where you can take a vacant and unreserved seat only for someone several stations down the line to be allocated it when they make a late reservation - that really does cause some fun and games.

It isn't that difficult to make up the timetable (assuming that there is enough sets to cover the services) so that a 9-car is always booked to run the Newquay services, the real difficulty is guaranteeing to passengers and to the operators that a 9-Car will always turn up in reality, simply because of failures etc. The alternative if a 9-car isn't available for whatever reason is either a 5-car or cancel the train, both of which will draw complaint.

 

Simon

 

Spot on Simon, and I thought Hitachi had a contracted commitment to deliver x number of diagrams (presumably of whatever type) per day.  If that contract has been properly drafted it will cost Hitachi money not to deliver the correct formation so it's a good inc entive to do what they are supposed to.

Word has reached these ears that another operational issue has arisen with the GWR sets.  Apparently two 5-car units coupled cannot be accommodated in the loop at Goonbarrow Junction.  Why is this important?  Very few trains even run that way.  

 

There is both a franchise requirement and a marketing commitment to operate through trains between Paddington and Newquay.  On summer Saturdays they cross other branch trains at Goonbarrow in order to provide something resembling a half-decent service which would otherwise be run at near three-hour intervals.  A 2+8 HST can cross a 2+8HST and this is timetabled.  But a 2x5-car 8xx cannot cross anything because of the length exceeding the loop clearing distance.

 

Unless 9-car sets can be guaranteed to Newquay (which going on present operations is not a given) then the through trains will be limited to 5-car sets which are insufficient to manage peak summer loadings on occasions.  Whilst it might be possible to have 2x5-cars divide at Par with the other unit going to Penzance (which has more stations and with greater total traffic potential than even an August Saturday at Newquay) the length of that train also exceeds the loop at Par meaning it probably cannot be split or attached in service.  

 

If only these things were though of first before ordering rolling stock which is significantly longer than the current generation trains.

 

On that basis it only becomes a potential problem if there is a 2x5 formation to cross another 2x5 formation and provided at least one loop will hold a 9 car Class 80X there should be no trouble crossing one of those with a short train.  Even if the detail now reported by iands is the case you can still cross a 9car or 2x5 car train with a train which will firt into the opposite loop

 

It is hardly an operational novelty to have to cross a train which is too long for a crossing loop with one that fits within its loop although I'd be the first to admit that it is over 40 years since I last did an equivalent sort of move involving a couple of passenger trains (which on that occasion required one of them to be back shunted into an occupied single line section but that was ordinary railway work even if I did have to read the relevant Instructions to the driver concerned before he would move his train (Old Oak Common men weren't all that familiar with the more detailed nuances of the ETT Regulations).

Edited November 8, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[Gwiwer]

Without wishing to make mountains from molehills it might indeed be possible to work around the Goonbarrow Issue but only if the signalling permits the over-length train to be admitted to one side of the loop and the other enter the opposite side with a train standing foul of the exit road.  Not all loops allow that and I am not sufficiently familiar with the frame and interlocking at Goonbarrow to comment further.

 

I too have wondered why so many 5-car units were specified but I wondered much the same when Cross Country ordered a fleet of four-car and five-car units to replace what were already short-formed 6-car loco-hauled sets reduced from 7 and previously (on a somewhat thinner timetable) 10 or more.

 

Arguments over flexibility and matching supply to demand pale into insignificance when looking at the inconvenience arising from a train where one half cannot be accessed from the other.  That requires an on-board crew member (guard, conductor or what ever their current designation is) in each set.  It also means that passengers boarding at the many short-platformed stations might not be able to access their reserved seat until a later station stop and would then need to alight (with luggage) and swap sets.  That is unreasonable.  For those who might like some form of refreshment the trolley will be in the other half of the train for all or part of the journey unless two are provided.  That again requires more staff and greater operating costs will arise.  I cannot see two trolleys being provided given that HST buffet cars have often been single-manned.  Are two first-class hosts going to be provided, one for each set?  And are all the catering supplies going to be doubled up?  Or will half the train be denied the advertised facilities, whether it be a standard class trolley or the well-liked first class complimentary at-seat service.

 

What a massive drain on resources which could b avoided if only the concept of a single walk-through train had been adopted for all sets.

[APOLLO]

Always a laugh at Wigan North western when a 2 set voyager rolls in, people scurrying back and to, then back again, despite previous announcements and platform screen info.

 

Brit15

[Banger Blue]

I have never understood why they ordered so many 5 car sets, with many long distance trains being iether short formed as 5 coaches or operating in seperate self-contained halves, with all the resulting inconvienience to passengers. 

With the Newquay issue, is it that difficult for them to ensure that a 9 car set is provided for those particular diagrams? It probably is.

Flexibility, the original idea was that services would operate as 2x5 to places such as Oxford, Bristol TM & Swansea where some trains could then split and a 5 car operate forward to Worcester, Weston SM & Carmarthen. The return would then recouple for the return to Paddington. 9 cars would be for the heavier loading services at Peak times for places like the Cotswolds line.

Also if Hitachi don’t supply the correct number of units for a day or there is a unit failure, a 2x5 can be split and the separate units cover all the services. A fixed longer length unit failing would result in cancellations.

The issue of only one set available in a 10 car formation was down to staffing and the requirement for 2 Train Managers however with the resulting training (and in agreement with the unions) of competent Catering Staff (known as Front Set Lead) this has largely been negated.

As to Newquay, all it would mean that Train Planning would put all the Newquay services onto 800/3 diagrams. Of course as pointed out above, failures may require the substitution of a smaller unit.

[royaloak]

Out of curiosity, is that a general requirement (that there must be a clear route to change ends external to the train) or is it not permissible or desirable to transverse the train purely internally which I'd have thought would have been possible from a layman's knowledge of the HST?

We are not allowed in the engine room without ear defenders if the engine is running, so to change ends internally we would have to shut down the engines (one at each end obviously), walk through the entire train, hoping the air doesnt leak off and the train move off, then restart the engines, reinstate the train supply etc and off we go.

 

Of course this would go against the Company instruction that all trains requiring an external 'walk' at Laira jn must be double crewed, so the point is moot.

[royaloak]

Barred because the trains don't actually fit, or because it hasn't been route cleared, though?

It would sem an odd one to leave off the clearance runs but anything is possible, all I know is I was told they are not cleared and that is that.

[RJS1977]

Flexibility, the original idea was that services would operate as 2x5 to places such as Oxford, Bristol TM & Swansea where some trains could then split and a 5 car operate forward to Worcester, Weston SM & Carmarthen. The return would then recouple for the return to Paddington. 9 cars would be for the heavier loading services at Peak times for places like the Cotswolds line.

Also if Hitachi don’t supply the correct number of units for a day or there is a unit failure, a 2x5 can be split and the separate units cover all the services. A fixed longer length unit failing would result in cancellations.

The issue of only one set available in a 10 car formation was down to staffing and the requirement for 2 Train Managers however with the resulting training (and in agreement with the unions) of competent Catering Staff (known as Front Set Lead) this has largely been negated.

As to Newquay, all it would mean that Train Planning would put all the Newquay services onto 800/3 diagrams. Of course as pointed out above, failures may require the substitution of a smaller unit.

 

I understood the original intention was to split at Cardiff, not Swansea.

 

As of yet, every time I have caught an IET from Swansea, it has been a 2x5 set, however I've usually had a carriage to myself as far as Cardiff!

[Coryton]

I understood the original intention was to split at Cardiff, not Swansea.

 

As of yet, every time I have caught an IET from Swansea, it has been a 2x5 set, however I've usually had a carriage to myself as far as Cardiff!

 

I'm not sure they've quite mastered the art of splitting and joining these in service reliably yet.

 

Coming back from the Swansea Airshow this year it was quite handy having a 9 coach unit on, mind.

[Ken.W]

I'm not sure they've quite mastered the art of splitting and joining these in service reliably yet.

 

The same seems to apply to XC's voyagers

 

Wern't these originally intended to do the same? Instead we see pairs of them running on the ECML, 5 or 10 minutes apart and taking up two paths

[iands]

The same seems to apply to XC's voyagers

 

Wern't these originally intended to do the same? Instead we see pairs of them running on the ECML, 5 or 10 minutes apart and taking up two paths

 

But the one's on the ECML operate two slightly different routes, one via Leeds and the other via Doncaster.

[The Stationmaster]

I understood the original intention was to split at Cardiff, not Swansea.

 

As of yet, every time I have caught an IET from Swansea, it has been a 2x5 set, however I've usually had a carriage to myself as far as Cardiff!

 

We need to bear in mind that we haven't yet got to the final GWR Class 80X timetable and that basically at present they are in effect running as replacements for HSTs in the diagrams built around the older service pattern.  The full Class 80X service can't operate until all sets are in traffic (and are hopefully reliable).  GWR recruitment was, so  was told, also built around that originally hence shortages causing 2x5 trains to run with a set locked out (or not there at all although I think that particular bit is down to Hitachi rather than GWR).

 

Now back to Goonbarrow and assuming it has the usual locking for a passing loop there is no problem at all but the train which will fit into the loop has to be the first one to arrive in its loop.   If the train which is too long arrives first then the place would probably be locked up although it does depend on the exact distances and where the track circuit block joints are sited.  As I said before it really is basic railway work which anybody used to traditionally signalled single line passing places should be able to get their heads round - the potential problem is of course that there might not be any staff around nowadays with that sort of understanding and experience but it then becomes a simple matter of logic. 

 

As far as walking through engine rooms is concerned then yes - do not do so when the engine(s) are running, a very long established situation.  However equally obviously Class 80X trains do not have engine rooms so that restriction doesn't apply so the only question is whether or not Drivers are not allowed to walk through passenger accommodation or food storage areas.  

 

Problems exist to be solved and not to prevent things from happening (although I do sometimes wonder if that is still the case on NR's railway?).

[Coryton]

We are not allowed in the engine room without ear defenders if the engine is running, so to change ends internally we would have to shut down the engines (one at each end obviously), walk through the entire train, hoping the air doesnt leak off and the train move off, then restart the engines, reinstate the train supply etc and off we go.

 

Of course this would go against the Company instruction that all trains requiring an external 'walk' at Laira jn must be double crewed, so the point is moot.

 

The obvious solution from where I'm sitting would be to provide ear defenders. I assume there is a good reason that this isn't the solution.

 

Of course if you have one at each end, then once you've walked through the train you now end up with both at one end, but presumably they could be 'reset' overnight.

[Titan]

The same seems to apply to XC's voyagers

 

Wern't these originally intended to do the same? Instead we see pairs of them running on the ECML, 5 or 10 minutes apart and taking up two paths

 

 

But the one's on the ECML operate two slightly different routes, one via Leeds and the other via Doncaster.

 

Indeed. They start out as half hourly between Birmingham and Derby, and as the Leeds route takes 20mins longer, they end up about 10 mins apart at York. They also take different routes south of Birmingham.

 

They also run 8's which split at Newcastle, 4 go forward to Edinburgh, and presumably the other 4 return south.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Titan

[Gwiwer]

With regard to splitting and attaching it is probably computer issues which cause any difficulties in the platform.  Southern (and their predecessors with largely the same staff) are masters of this art but still had no end of problems when the Electrostars first arrived.  What used to be a 2-minute job often blew out to 5 minutes or more and even longer if everything required a reset.  Couplers are much more complex now than they were on the 1963-type SR EMUs which could be split in as little as 20 seconds and joined in under a minute in service at platforms, though 2 minutes was the standard allowance.  Computers must handshake and agree to play nicely together for one thing.  Every electrical connection must be made perfectly through the coupler rather than simply plugging in the 27-way jumper.  But if anyone thinks such things are too hard please pay a visit to Haywards Heath or Horsham to see how to split and attach portions speedily and safely.  The 80x may be in the same situation for now and will settle in with a few tweaks and greater familiarity.

 

There were suggestions that 5-car trains would operate west of Plymouth leaving / joining another 5 there to make 10 on the London trains.  Most of us with recent travel experience through the Duchy will know that 5-coach trains just are not enough.  Even when (or if) the two-trains-per-hour timetable commences there is likely to be a significant peak of traffic at certain times and of course there will still be all the through journeys between Cornwall and points east of Plymouth.  In some cases a 2+8 HST is barely adequate such is the demand for travel.  In recent years I have been aboard three such sets with standing passengers east of Truro.

 

2x5-car will be problematic in Cornwall as most stations have platforms shorter than the train.  If customers cannot walk through then seat reservations may become a nonsense.  Even knowing where the booked coach should be on the train is no guarantee; the set of the entire train may well be reversed and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to wait beyond the sheltered areas on wet days just because there is no way to get from coach 5 to coach 6.

[andy stroud]

I think this may have been suggested before but I wonder if there is any chance they would have a re-think and rebuild some driving coaches by removing the cab and converting to a normal coach with corridor connections, thus forming more 9 or maybe 10 car sets.