Class 800 - Updates

[Zomboid]

No doubt there will be computer related delays, and I expect they will be most common when it's a new process (due to a combination of the usual bathtub curve and staff unfamiliarity), but that will get resolved. Hitachi can clearly do it, as the 395s demonstrate.

[royaloak]

It sounds silly, but when I visited North Pole Depot last winter, the Hitachi engineer we were with (who was very knowledgeable on the units) did say that converting from a non-powered and to a powered trailer took about the times I mentioned because the design was modular

 

Simon

He probably meant the intermediate coaches which already have the raised floor etc, they would also need to add all the rheostatic braking gear etc so quite a bit too add.

['CHARD]

It sounds silly, but when I visited North Pole Depot last winter, the Hitachi engineer we were with (who was very knowledgable on the units) did say that converting from a non-powered and to a powered trailer took about the times I mentioned because the design was modular

 

Simon

 

Hmmmmmmm.  Having been close to several manufacturers, over a matter of years, I would be sceptical about those claims.  Especially after a unit has been in traffic for months or years, and all the undergubbins is nicely seized and reluctant to part with its neighbours.

[royaloak]

That makes the 80x situation sound simple.  In reality it is the computers which are likely to be the difficulty.

Plus all the stop 6ft, open clam shells, move up to 2ft, get out and check coupling alignment, get back in and couple up, pull away test, press couple button bolleaux which only seems to happen in this country.

[royaloak]

Hmmmmmmm.  Having been close to several manufacturers, over a matter of years, I would be sceptical about those claims.  Especially after a unit has been in traffic for months or years, and all the undergubbins is nicely seized and reluctant to part with its neighbours.

Having had a good look underneath an 802 I dont think any bolts will be seizing up either due to the copious amounts of oil leaking out of the engines or the number of times the component rafts will have to be changed as things break.

[Coryton]

Having had a good look underneath an 802 I dont think any bolts will be seizing up either due to the copious amounts of oil leaking out of the engines or the number of times the component rafts will have to be changed as things break.

 

Sounds like Bachmann.

[Coryton]

Plus all the stop 6ft, open clam shells, move up to 2ft, get out and check coupling alignment, get back in and couple up, pull away test, press couple button bolleaux which only seems to happen in this country.

 

It was most interesting observing operations a few years ago on a loco-hauled service in Poland which had to change direction three times while we were on it. The first two times were done by running the engine round - all handled by the driver alone, and extremely smartly.

[Gwiwer]

Plus all the stop 6ft, open clam shells, move up to 2ft, get out and check coupling alignment, get back in and couple up, pull away test, press couple button bolleaux which only seems to happen in this country.

 

Southern Region and successors do exactly the same using a member of platform staff for safety observations and manage the average couple-up in under two minutes including time taken to close the passenger doors.

[royaloak]

It currently takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds for the TMS to reconfigure after the couple button is pressed, so I am trying to work out how some posters reckon the whole coupling process can be done in a couple of minutes!

[Gwiwer]

That is, in my opinion, a ridiculously long time and under 60 seconds should be achievable.

[royaloak]

The class 395 Javelin clip is a timely reminder that stock similar in many ways to the 80x already splits and attaches in a very short time on a daily basis. 

All those videos show is the mechanical coupling or uncoupling process, and then not all of it (on the 395 uncoupling video the electrical boxes are already separated when the video starts) but what do I know! 

 

I will leave this thread to all the experts on here that obviously know so much more about how to drive them than I do, I mean I have only been competent to drive them for the last 4 months.

 

I will occasionally have a look in because some of what is being posted is quite funny.

Edited November 11, 2018 by royaloak

[jamie92208]

And some time back someone showed a photo rather like that one...

 

The earlier one was of the platform mounted ones that have been around for years but are only in one place on the platform.   This is the first time I have seen the info on the main TV screens spaced along the platform thereby making it a lot easier for people spread out along a very long platform. It shouldn't be too difficult to use something similar for the 800's.

 

Jamie

[Coryton]

The earlier one was of the platform mounted ones that have been around for years but are only in one place on the platform.   This is the first time I have seen the info on the main TV screens spaced along the platform thereby making it a lot easier for people spread out along a very long platform. It shouldn't be too difficult to use something similar for the 800's.

 

Jamie

 

Unless I'm mis-remembering (and I'm not going back in the thread to check), my photo was of just what you describe - one of many screens at different points along the platform long enough for a double length TGV (and then some). 

 

Didcot Parkway has something vaguely similar, but last time I was there only one per platform, not in a very obvious place, and only one platform had letters to show which bit of the platform was which.

[RJS1977]

Some years ago, FGW (as it was then) used to divide the platforms at major stations into sections (red zone, blue zone, green zone and gold zone IIRC). The timetable booklets listed in the back which carriages normally corresponded to which zones, and if an HST was reversed, this would be announced along the lines of "This train is in reverse formation. Coach A and B are in the ____ zone, etc."

[Coryton]

Some years ago, FGW (as it was then) used to divide the platforms at major stations into sections (red zone, blue zone, green zone and gold zone IIRC). The timetable booklets listed in the back which carriages normally corresponded to which zones, and if an HST was reversed, this would be announced along the lines of "This train is in reverse formation. Coach A and B are in the ____ zone, etc."

 

I am pretty sure this was a pre-privatisation thing - it certainly wasn't just on FGW routes.

 

In Cardiff they have FGW-era signs for HSTs indicating where they each coach should be under normal circumstances and where they will be if a train is announced as being in "reverse formation". Except I've never heard an announcement along those lines - they just say "first class at front/rear" leaving you to realise that's not the normal way round...

[jim.snowdon]

Plus all the stop 6ft, open clam shells, move up to 2ft, get out and check coupling alignment, get back in and couple up, pull away test, press couple button bolleaux which only seems to happen in this country.

And used not to happen in the days of Southern Region, and more recently, in the days before the 387s arrived at Paddington. It was not at all unknown for the incoming train to draw up, then couple, and then release the doors for the alighting passengers.

 

Provided the platform is reasonably straight, as most are, the couplers will self align (as they are designed to do). They are, in any case, designed to centralise when not in use, and to stay there through a combination of spring plungers and shaped cams on the coupler pivot. Current official practice, I suspect, owes more to people in offices drafting procedures based on the manufacturer's manuals, with neither having, or being allowed to have, any real practical experience of how the people on the ground actually do the job.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

It currently takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds for the TMS to reconfigure after the couple button is pressed, so I am trying to work out how some posters reckon the whole coupling process can be done in a couple of minutes!

 

 

That is, in my opinion, a ridiculously long time and under 60 seconds should be achievable.

Maybe it should be, or needs to be, quicker but it takes the amount of time it takes and unless the software can be finessed in some way that is how long it will always take.  As I pointed out earlier this is a far from unusual situation where trains rely on 'computer heavy' train control and management systems and it takes time for the cab to boot up during preparation, or  as instanced here, for the system to reconfigure after a change is made to the formation of the train.

 

Ideally if those specifying the train had some sort of practical experience of this kind of thing they could have specified times in the train spec to suit the way a timetable and trainplan would have to be constructed (maybe they did, or maybe it simply didn't occur to them - I doubt we'll ever know).  But the critical thing is that when the times are known they have to be allowed for in any trainplan and in Driver diagrams involve ing train prep and shutdown.  That will almost inevitably be part of a learning curve where people are not familiar with the constraints imposed by 'software heavy' trains and while some of us learnt such lessons in a past life because before formulating plans and looking at such things as turnround times we bothered to consult those in the know about the time impact of such processes it simply might not occur to those unfamiliar with this sort of train.

[Chris116]

Old time railway staff must wonder what the world has come to when back in the 50s and before engines could be changed on a train quicker than two modern units can be coupled or uncoupled! At Rickmansworth the change from electric loco to steam loco took under five minutes but then station stops took less time then than it now takes to simply open the doors!

Edited November 13, 2018 by Chris116

[Gwiwer]

Old time railway staff must wonder what the world has come to when back in the 50s and before engines could be changed on a train quicker than two modern units can be coupled or uncoupled! At Rickmansworth the change from electric loco to steam loco took under five minutes but then station stops took less time then than it now takes to simply open the doors!

 

I remember the loco changes at Ricky.  And if I remember correctly the shunter also had to go between in the four-foot to release / tighten the screw coupler.  With a negative current rail under his boot for good measure!  

 

Quite apart from the slick changeovers which required the electric loco to shunt off to one siding and the steam to shunt on from another (or vice versa) could you see this being allowed today?

[Chris116]

I remember the loco changes at Ricky.  And if I remember correctly the shunter also had to go between in the four-foot to release / tighten the screw coupler.  With a negative current rail under his boot for good measure!  

 

Quite apart from the slick changeovers which required the electric loco to shunt off to one siding and the steam to shunt on from another (or vice versa) could you see thinks being allowed today?

No chance what so ever without a massive increase in the kitten population from Health and Safety.

 

EDIT:- To make the comment say what was intended! Put "with" instead of "without"! 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Chris116

[jamie92208]

No chance what so ever with a massive increase in the kitten population from Health and Safety.

 

The father of a friend of mine spent some time as a shunter at Poulton Le Fylde during the war.   He was allowed 2 minutes to split a train into Blackpool and Fleetwood portions and that included putting the boards on the gangway connectors.

 

Jamie

[Zomboid]

No chance what so ever with a massive increase in the kitten population from Health and Safety.

And rightly so, since automatic couplers now exist, using a screw coupler when there's a live rail in the 4 for would be a massive distance away from ALARP.

 

It might have been ALARP at the time though (not that such a thing was really a consideration). Technology changes these things...

[caradoc]

And rightly so, since automatic couplers now exist, using a screw coupler when there's a live rail in the 4 for would be a massive distance away from ALARP.

 

It might have been ALARP at the time though (not that such a thing was really a consideration). Technology changes these things...

 

Agree, and I wonder what the death and injury statistics were for shunting staff in those days ?

[jim.snowdon]

I remember the loco changes at Ricky.  And if I remember correctly the shunter also had to go between in the four-foot to release / tighten the screw coupler.  With a negative current rail under his boot for good measure!  

 

Quite apart from the slick changeovers which required the electric loco to shunt off to one siding and the steam to shunt on from another (or vice versa) could you see this being allowed today?

I can't be absolutely certain about the conductor rail arrangements at Rickmansworth (as well as Baker Street and the other places where Met loco hauled trains terminated), the usual practice was for the conductor rail to be gapped at the locations where the shunter had to go underneath. It is also why, in later days, LU had a distinct aversion to screw couplings on account of the risks of a dangling one contacting the negative rail. Under normal circumstances that is not as much of a problem as it might seem, unless there happens to be a positive earth fault in the same electrical section.

 

SR practice was (and still is) to fit guard boards either side of the conductor rail at these locations, although with the pre-1950 electric stock there was the additional hazard of a 650 volt jumper to contend with.

 

Jim

[Chris116]

I have found a short film on YouTube of the locomotive change at Rickmansworth which clearly shows that there was no break in the conductor rail.

 

 

I hope the above link works and is allowed.