Class 800 - Updates

[Zomboid]

I think this may have been suggested before but I wonder if there is any chance they would have a re-think and rebuild some driving coaches by removing the cab and converting to a normal coach with corridor connections, thus forming more 9 or maybe 10 car sets.

I'm not involved in any way, but until the idea proves itself a failure and every other option has been exhausted, there's no chance whatsoever that anyone will even consider that.

[St. Simon]

I think this may have been suggested before but I wonder if there is any chance they would have a re-think and rebuild some driving coaches by removing the cab and converting to a normal coach with corridor connections, thus forming more 9 or maybe 10 car sets.

Maybe in 10 years time, but it would be a significant rebuild, not only removing the cab, but removing the pantograph, adding an engine along with all the electronic changes etc.

 

It would cheaper just to buy new build coaches...

 

Simon

[Gwiwer]

The 80x sets are about to have a "Dawlish Test".  This afternoon's very high tide coincides with the arrival of a storm.  NR and GWR are advising that the sea wall will close completely from 17.00 until probably close of service.  But before then anything passing Dawlish can expect to receive some spray and possibly a full salt bath.  XC Voyagers are already caped, of course.

[Ron Ron Ron]

...... I wonder if there is any chance they would have a re-think and rebuild some driving coaches by removing the cab and converting to a normal coach with corridor connections, thus forming more 9 or maybe 10 car sets.

 

 

The train design is modular and has been specified to be operated with up to 12 cars maximum. With the shorter half set pairs being 5 or 6 cars long.

 

Existing 9 car trains can be extended to  10, 11 or 12 car formations, by adding additional vehicles.

A 5 car can be extended to anything up to 12 cars long.

 

There is no need to convert, or remove cabs in order too extend the trains from their current configurations..

 

Notwithstanding, any big changes would mean a significant rewriting of the 27.5 year leasing arrangement between the DfT and Agility Trains (the owners).

 

 

.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[The Stationmaster]

Having recently watched a pair of GWR Class 387 sets splitting at Reading that took well under 1 minute but I've not yet seen any couple so don't know how long that might take.

 

Class 80X trains might or might not be a different kettle of fish of course and hopefully their ability to join and split will be somewhat better than their other attributes.  E.G. 2 sets noted at Pangbourne today (one 9 car and one 5 car) running on diesel and the westbound 9 car was definitely somewhat down on HST performance and I see that according to Real Time Trains it lost 1.5 minutes between Reading and Didcot and yet more time to Swindon and didn't regain any time until it was past St Marys Crossing running downhill.

[Coryton]

Maybe in 10 years time, but it would be a significant rebuild, not only removing the cab, but removing the pantograph, adding an engine along with all the electronic changes etc.

 

It would cheaper just to buy new build coaches...

 

Simon

 

Add adding an engine would involve raising the floor,

 

I'm not sure though, in this fantasy world, that you'd need to convert these from trailers though - a 9 coach train already has two intermediate trailers doesn't it?

[St. Simon]

Having recently watched a pair of GWR Class 387 sets splitting at Reading that took well under 1 minute but I've not yet seen any couple so don't know how long that might take.

 

Class 80X trains might or might not be a different kettle of fish of course and hopefully their ability to join and split will be somewhat better than their other attributes.  E.G. 2 sets noted at Pangbourne today (one 9 car and one 5 car) running on diesel and the westbound 9 car was definitely somewhat down on HST performance and I see that according to Real Time Trains it lost 1.5 minutes between Reading and Didcot and yet more time to Swindon and didn't regain any time until it was past St Marys Crossing running downhill.

 

Interesting, all the class 387's splitting and joining is taking in the 5 to 10 minute region, but I think that is partly due to all the doors between cabs having to be secured etc.

 

Coupling two class 80xs should be a fairly simple procedure; its just a case of opening the nose cone and extending the coupling (I think that's all done off one button), drive the trains together, and press the couple button (that's the simple version, obviously there are other procedures to carry out). I believe that the TMS reconfigure itself without driver intervention? 

 

Simon 

[St. Simon]

I'm not sure though, in this fantasy world, that you'd need to convert these from trailers though - a 9 coach train already has two intermediate trailers doesn't it?

 

Possibly note, but I would imagine that one of the existing trailers might be converted to a powered car, which would be quicker to keep up the powered to non-powered ration.

 

All it would take is a bogie swap (a day at most I would of thought, including all the wiring for the motors), inserting a diesel engine and fuel tank (a couple of hours) and some reconfigure of the trains software (another couple of hours).

 

Simon

[Coryton]

Possibly note, but I would imagine that one of the existing trailers might be converted to a powered car, which would be quicker to keep up the powered to non-powered ration.

 

All it would take is a bogie swap (a day at most I would of thought, including all the wiring for the motors), inserting a diesel engine and fuel tank (a couple of hours) and some reconfigure of the trains software (another couple of hours).

 

Simon

 

The cynic in me says that you might be right about the bogie swaps and adding the engine, but not about making the software happy again...

[APOLLO]

Bit stormy at Dawlish right now !! (and I wouldn't park my car there either).

 

https://www.dawlishbeach.com/cameras/free-cameras/the-blenheim-cam/

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DWL?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

Brit15

[Coryton]

I've now seen more detailed information on the system fitted on LNER trains, which goes live on Thursday.

It's a unique system to digitally show seat reservations, and also detects if a seat is occupied.

 

Reservations are downloaded up to 25 mins before departure

Seat Display screens (which I believe are larger than on Pendolino etc) then show simply either Available, Reserved to xxxx, or Available to xxxx

At each calling station the screens will refresh to show any new information. eg on a Kings X - Newcastle train, a seat reservation York - Newcastle will initially be shown as Available to York. At York it'll change to Reserved to Newcastle.

 

Seat reservation lights will show;

Red; Reserved for full end-to-end journey

Amber; Reserved for parts of the journey

Green; Available for the whole end-to-end journey

Previous posts have commented on the lights not being lit;

They'll show for 5 minutes; at the originating station three minutes before departure and two after, and at intermediate stations after the train has stopped.

 

 

That sounds quite an impressive system, especially since it's presumably being fitted to trains which will shortly be replaced (yes I know....) and in goes far beyond what's on the (GWR) IETs or anything I've seen in another country.

 

I'm still baffled by the way the lights in the coaches (not the colour coding on the 'seat finder') are set up to work though. It would make sense to me if the lights had to stay the same throughout the journey, but given that the system updates for each station, I'm finding it hard to see why it's not the same as the GWR IETs with the lights updating along with the displays.

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood how the GWR system works or I'm missing something, but I think they compare like this:

 

GWR: Green - seat available until the end of the journey

LNER: Green - seat available until the end of the journey but only if it hasn't been reserved earlier in the journey (why would I care about that?)

GWR: Red - seat reserved

LNER: Red - seat reserved, but only if it it has been from the start of the journey and will be reserved to the end 

GWR: Yellow - seat available but is reserved at a later station

LNER: Yellow - seat available but is reserved at a later station

OR: seat reserved but will become available at a later station (the reverse of the above!)

OR: seat available to the end of the journey (but was reserved earlier)

OR: seat reserved to the end of the journey (but was available earlier).

 

In both cases for yellow you have to look at the screens...but a LOT more seats in general will be yellow on LNER since it includes both currently reserved and unreserved seats.

 

And I'm finding it hard to see why either the LNER system is more useful, or what technical reason would prevent it from functioning like on GWR. (Or why they have to be powered by batteries, for that matter).

 

And it looks as if the LNER system won't help you to tell if a seat has more than one consecutive reservation (so if you sit in an untaken, reserved seat, someone might get on later and legitimately turf you out). The GWR system shows that clearly with a line for the upcoming reservation and the one after.

[Ken.W]

But the one's on the ECML operate two slightly different routes, one via Leeds and the other via Doncaster.

 

But not North of York where they were supposed to run joined, and the Newcastle - Berwick section which has reduced capacity due to the 3-aspect signalling.

 

One result of this is the Norhtbound EC services nearly always departing York late - there's an XC due to depart 3 mins ahead which is always late away.

And I've often seen the EC having arrived on time into York depart 10 late because the XC has to go first!

 

Indeed. They start out as half hourly between Birmingham and Derby, and as the Leeds route takes 20mins longer, they end up about 10 mins apart at York. They also take different routes south of Birmingham.

 

They also run 8's which split at Newcastle, 4 go forward to Edinburgh, and presumably the other 4 return south.

 

Very few actually split / join at Newcastle in service, most that do are ECS to / from Tyne Yard

[HillsideDepot]

2x5-car will be problematic in Cornwall as most stations have platforms shorter than the train.  If customers cannot walk through then seat reservations may become a nonsense.  Even knowing where the booked coach should be on the train is no guarantee; the set of the entire train may well be reversed and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to wait beyond the sheltered areas on wet days just because there is no way to get from coach 5 to coach 6.

 

A quick "fag-packet" schedule of the current London - Penzance timetable suggests it can be done with 9 units. Sticking with just those 9 units, and only Penance services, gives some long layovers in Paddington, but of course in reality things do go elsewhere. However, if the service can be operated with 9 units and GWR have 14 9-car 802s on order it looks like they should achieve 9-cars on all Penzances when everything is delivered. Of course add in Newquay, heavier maintenance (which will be due at some point), and maybe a serious (long term) failure and its getting tight, but GWR can't afford the luxury of shelves full of spare stock as most of us have.

[Davexoc]

Bit stormy at Dawlish right now !! (and I wouldn't park my car there either).

 

https://www.dawlishbeach.com/cameras/free-cameras/the-blenheim-cam/

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DWL?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

Brit15

Just looked at the Blenheim camera and caught a Landrover reversing along the up line.....

[royaloak]

Maybe in 10 years time, but it would be a significant rebuild, not only removing the cab, but removing the pantograph, adding an engine along with all the electronic changes etc.

 

It would cheaper just to buy new build coaches...

 

Simon

How are they going to fit an engine, oops I mean a generating unit?

The driving coaches have a lower floor than the intermediate coaches, actually it would be more accurate to say the intermediate coaches have a raised floor so the V12 MTU lump can fit underneath.

 

It would be extremely expensive to convert a driving coach into a powered intermediate coach, I would say it is practically impossible.

Edited November 9, 2018 by royaloak

[royaloak]

Re Laira jn-

 

If you have a driver at each end of a HST then there is no need for anyone to walk through the engine rooms.

 

Obviously we can walk through an IET but we cannot walk through 2x5 coach units because there isnt a change ends walking route, even if it is a single 5 or a 9 coach IET we cant turn them because they cant work over the speedway and the chances of there being a vacant through road is remote at the moment so that isnt viable either.

[Coryton]

How are they going to fit an engine, oops I mean a generating unit?

The driving coaches have a lower floor than the intermediate coaches, actually it would be more accurate to say the intermediate coaches have a raised floor so the V12 MTU lump can fit underneath.

 

It would be extremely expensive to convert a driving coach into a powered intermediate coach, I would say it is practically impossible.

 

But if you made two 5 coach units into a 9 coach unit would you need to? Don't the 9 coach units have two intermediate trailers?

 

And this is only relevant anyway on a bi-mode, not the (almost) all electric version.

 

(Not that I'm suggesting there is any way this is going to happen, but...)

[royaloak]

But if you made two 5 coach units into a 9 coach unit would you need to? Don't the 9 coach units have two intermediate trailers?

 

And this is only relevant anyway on a bi-mode, not the (almost) all electric version.

 

(Not that I'm suggesting there is any way this is going to happen, but...)

You are of course correct, on the 9 coach ones the motor coaches are nos 2,3,5,7 and 8

[Ken.W]

Seems I'll get a first chance to try out the new reservation system tomorrow. Co-incidently, it's tomorow that, with a friend, I'm going on our planned 'farewell GW HSTs trip' I posted enquiring about HST workings earlier, so will be on the 04:44 from Newcastle, the first one from the system going live!

Using a pass I can't of course reserve, so will find out how the new system works for finding free seats.

For the main course, we're on the 10:03 from Padd to Penzance, and same train return.

 

Edit;

PS we do have reservations on the GW leg, as I've to pay for a ticket (a novel experience lol) as we're going in First, to hopefully sample the dining

Well, I now feel suitably refreshed for an update on Thursday's adventures.

 

It started off joining the 04:44 from Newcastle to Kings X. This was of course, the first encounter with the electronic reservation system working fully without paper labels too.

Boarding the train, 10 - 15 mins before departure, so the indicator lights were out, walking along the aisle I found that glancing at the screens it was easy to see which were available without  having to stop to read each one (as with voyager diplays or paper labels), which would be useful boarding a busy train with a queue behind. It was clear which were available the full way, part way, or if on a busy train, may be available later.

I was looking for an Available table for four, which was easy to find (particularly on this train lol), perhaps even easier than with labels as an odd one in the corner of a table was sometimes easy to overlook till you'd sat down - with the displays they're all in a row above the seats at eye-level. My friend joined at Darlington, also his brother and sister-in-law at Doncaster going for a day out in London.

The seat opposite had the display showing 'Available to York', and the lights lit yellow, as expected, for departure and also at Durham and Darlington. At York though, the display changed to 'Reserved to Kings X' and the light then showed Red, although the information I've seen says "Red - The seat is reserved for the whole end-to-end journey". The system worked otherwise as expected from what I saw, and I was able to view the seat finder in which again the information was clear, and which, reasurringly, showed our seats as occupied!

 

An uneventful journey to KX, with breakfast and trolley service, and we then took the bus to Paddington. With an hour to spare we viewed the statues and, with just my friend now, sampled the First class lounge - much more tasteful for first than the now 'virginised' EC ones.

 

Anyway, when we find our train, the 10:03, had arrived into the platform, yes, success, we've got our HST, the purpose of the trip!

A special vote of thanks here to 'Gwiwer' for his previous post that this would still be a booked HST working which gave us confidence to chance booking Advance tickets instead of open fares to be able to get a later train if an 800 turned up.

GWR's First class HST seats were, I found, better than the EC version with proper winged headrests and without the Virgin/LNER medallions on them. The trolley service was certainly frequent throughout the journey, much more so than I'm used to elsewhere! Although there seemed to be no complimentary hot food on offer at seat, the sandwiches available were good quality and adequate for what we wanted outward.

Another uneventful journey, enjoying the HST ride and the as expected outstanding scenery of the South West saw us into Penzance on time, though the sea was rough and Dawlish the tide was out, but it was splashing over the line just outside Penzance station....

 

After our all of 40 min. visit to Penzance, lol, we're back on board (to suprised looks from the steward when we rejoin, even in the same seats!) for the 16:00 return to Paddington, still of course our same HST. Things sound promising for the secondary objective, sampling the famous GWR Pullman Dining, though there's soon word of problems ahead...

Yes, the sea wall's down to single line working, over the Up Line, and the XCs are cancelled, so some delay, and extra stops plus a lot of extra passengers.

At Plymouth the Pullman crew duly join, and we take our seats in the restaurant when it's ready. a long time since I've been able to enjoy a full dining service on a normal service train, and excellent, good quality and good service. Only downside to it (besides the price) was we didn't find till after we'd started that they were unable to accept card payments as the machine wasn't working. very nearly embarassing (and would have been if on my own), and several others were stuggling to pay too. Not good, especially at those prices. We still enjoyed the meal, and the HST journey again.

 

However, the delay at Dawlish, extra stops, and then being out of path resulted in a 25 late arrival at Paddington, no way to catch the 22:00 (last) Newcastle from Kings X.

Resort to plan B, the 23:00 (York) as far as Doncaster, short stay at my friend's brother's there, then the first,  06:15 (starting from there), to Newcastle, getting in 07:40.

 

So, a good trip overall, and enjoyed our farewell journey on the GW HSTs. And just about 1200 miles in 27 hours (though it should have been 22)

 

And apparently lucky, as the sea wal was, it seems, closed both the day before and the day after!

Edited November 10, 2018 by Ken.W

[Gwiwer]

Ken - pleased you got your trip.  Don't forget to claim Delay Repay as you missed your last train of the day owing to GWR running late.  And I'm pleased to hear you got to sample the Pullman dining which, when it is actually available, is a rather good meal though railway dining has never been cheap.  I wonder how they would have managed had customers actually been unable to pay due to their card-reader malfunctioning.  I have encountered that same problem and luckily had just enough cash on me which normally would not have been the case.  

 

Has anyone had reliable accounts, or even first-hand experience of, 80x sets tackling the sea wall in the recent conditions?  It has been a little wet and wild down there. 

[JeffP]

Great write up. I bet you were tired. I remember having an all-line 7-day Rover back in the early 80's. I started off with a mate and did Doncaster to aberdeen on the Night Aberdonian, Aberdeen to Inverness, inverness to Glasgow central, Galsgow to Euston, tube to Paddington, Paddington to Penzance on another sleeper, (which ended up triple headed over the Devon banks, two class 50's and a 31 piloting), next day Penzance to exeter, Exeter to salisbury, salisbury to Brighton and Brighton the London, then home to Scunthorpe.

 

The NEXT day was supposed to be home to London, Paddington to Worcester, Worcester to Hereford, Hereford to Newport and Cardiff, short diversion to Swansea, then Swansea to Paddington and home via Kings Cross again...but I napped almost all the day..... If I hadn't had my mate's brother opposite me, heaven knows where I'd have ended up....

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting, all the class 387's splitting and joining is taking in the 5 to 10 minute region, but I think that is partly due to all the doors between cabs having to be secured etc.

 

Coupling two class 80xs should be a fairly simple procedure; its just a case of opening the nose cone and extending the coupling (I think that's all done off one button), drive the trains together, and press the couple button (that's the simple version, obviously there are other procedures to carry out). I believe that the TMS reconfigure itself without driver intervention? 

 

Simon 

 

It really impressed me how quick and simple it was splitting the two 387 sets.  The gangway end doors were closed when the units parted so presumably had already been done before the actual split took place and it definitely took place in well under 10 minutes and probably little more than 5 minutes as it wasn't much more than that between the arrival of the two sets coupled and the departure of my train (which was one of those sets).  I was most impressed to see how quickly it was done as the Driver also had to walk back from the leading cab.

A quick "fag-packet" schedule of the current London - Penzance timetable suggests it can be done with 9 units. Sticking with just those 9 units, and only Penance services, gives some long layovers in Paddington, but of course in reality things do go elsewhere. However, if the service can be operated with 9 units and GWR have 14 9-car 802s on order it looks like they should achieve 9-cars on all Penzances when everything is delivered. Of course add in Newquay, heavier maintenance (which will be due at some point), and maybe a serious (long term) failure and its getting tight, but GWR can't afford the luxury of shelves full of spare stock as most of us have.

 

Interesting point here. Is the West of England fleet on the same deal (cover X number of diagrams) as the basic Class 80X deal for other routes?  If it is then the number of sets needed to cover booked work plus maintenance is Hitachi's worrry rather than GWR's I would presume.

[Zomboid]

At Bournemouth it takes about 10 minutes for a 10x 444 to arrive, split into 2x5 cars, 5 to leave for Weymouth, another 5 to arrive from the west, couple to the 5 left in the platform and the whole lot to head off to London.

 

If it's taking 5-10 for GWR to do a single join/ split then they need a bit more practice.

[jamie92208]

In 1971 I used to watch the shunter splitting/joining 2 EPB's as Staines in what seemed like only a minute or two.  Similarly a little further along the line the 4 COR's split and joined in no time at all.

 

Tonight I was coming home by train and realised that the last leg from Poitiers to Niort would be on the rear set of a two set TGV from Paris.  On time the full train arrived and within 3minutes the front set had set off to Bordeaux via Angouleme. 3 minutes later we set off for Niort.   This happens all the time and usually works well.   As an aside we pulled into Niort on time and as I walked down the coach a sleepy Frenchman asked me if we were in Angouleme.   I had to inform him that the next stop was La Rochelle.  He had obviously got onto the wrong unit somewhere along the line.  He didn't appear to be bothered as the train pulled out.   Tant pis as they say over here.

 

Jamie

[royaloak]

At Bournemouth it takes about 10 minutes for a 10x 444 to arrive, split into 2x5 cars, 5 to leave for Weymouth, another 5 to arrive from the west, couple to the 5 left in the platform and the whole lot to head off to London.

 

If it's taking 5-10 for GWR to do a single join/ split then they need a bit more practice.

When I was at SWT the driver who brought the train in didnt do the splitting, there was another driver waiting for the train to arrive and they jumped in the intermediate cab to do the splitting, a lot of the Guards would have already done the gangway doors on the Desiros so it was a quick split and away.

 

As stated above RE the GWR 387 splitting at Reading it was the same driver bringing the train in and doing the split so it would take quite a bit longer.

Edited November 10, 2018 by royaloak