Class 800 - Updates

[RJS1977]

Well you haven't met me in person, but I am quite impressed with them.

 

I would far rather travel in an IET than a UK Pendolino, or a GWR Mk 3.

 

Just watched a 9 coach IET go past my train.

 

Electronic reservations not functioning, reservation tickets on the seat backs. 

 

Wasn't the electronic system supposed to have gone live by now?

 

I was on one yesterday which had the electronic reservations and seat labels. 

 

But like you, overall I am impressed with the IETs.

[jjb1970]

Don't hold your breath.  There are, in my humble opinion, too many chiefs, too many parties and too many profits being sought from the one pie.  If we had BR - who were by no means perfect - we might have had a train designed and built by and for the same people who were going to run it, to their specification and working more or less out of the box.

 

 

 

Although I have some sympathy for much of the above (although I think that if the ROSCOs and TOCs had been left alone to look after an HST replacement they'd be more than capable of getting a train that did what was required with nothing like the drama of the whole IEP saga) the underlined bit is going too far as BR's track record wasn't quite blemish free when it came to managing new train programs and getting the things into service. These days trains are generally based on common platforms and it is a concept that works very well for the most part.

[andy stroud]

 BR's track record wasn't quite blemish free when it came to managing new train programs and getting the things into service. These days trains are generally based on common platforms and it is a concept that works very well for the most part.

 

Whenever BR introduced new trains, they still had the original  trains which they could call upon if needed. Stock was often cascaded to other routes but non of this 'off lease'  or 'contractually needing to move elsewhere' nonsense.

[jim.snowdon]

Although I have some sympathy for much of the above (although I think that if the ROSCOs and TOCs had been left alone to look after an HST replacement they'd be more than capable of getting a train that did what was required with nothing like the drama of the whole IEP saga) the underlined bit is going too far as BR's track record wasn't quite blemish free when it came to managing new train programs and getting the things into service. These days trains are generally based on common platforms and it is a concept that works very well for the most part.

There are times when it appears that the problem is not so much the trains but the signalling infrastructure and its inability to cope with electrically noisy trains, seemingly to a greater extent than any other railway in Europe. It is approaching four decades ago that electric rolling stock with three-phase drives went into service on DB with far less fuss.

 

Jim

[Ken.W]

800201 stood in platform 7 at York this morning at 09.15 with it's pantograph raised. Didn't see it arrive or depart as I was changing trains and didn't have time to wait around so unable to say if it moved in this state. This seems to be a regular training/test run but it has been on diesel over the last few weeks, have things changed regarding running on electric North of Doncaster?

 

There's been an instruction issued for certain test / training trains to run in electric mode between Doncaster and York for test purposes.

[magic_monkey09]

a recent list of all the GWR IET’s with diesel only restrictions

800001

800002

800012

800015

800022

800028

800030

800035

800036

800308

800310

Edited December 1, 2018 by magic_monkey09

[magic_monkey09]

10 coach 800 left Cardiff for Paddington this afternoon - both units the right way round, but only the front 5 coaches available for passengers.

 

In some ways even more frustrating than having a short-formed train.

 

(The announcement actually said, "The front 5 coaches are for public use only", which isn't quite how I would have put it).

 

(Edited to remove duplicated text)

This is normally the result of having no competent crew member for the front set resulting in the rear set being locked out of use. GWR IETs when running in multiple formation have to have a competent member of staff in each end (usually a train manager and lead customer host). They are not allowed to carry passengers with no competent member of staff present.

[magic_monkey09]

Well you haven't met me in person, but I am quite impressed with them.

 

I would far rather travel in an IET than a UK Pendolino, or a GWR Mk 3.

 

Just watched a 9 coach IET go past my train.

 

Electronic reservations not functioning, reservation tickets on the seat backs.

 

Wasn't the electronic system supposed to have gone live by now?

Electronic seat reservations will not work if the train is booked for a 9 car and replaced by a 10 car or vice versa. 9 and 10 car electronic seat reservations are not compatible with each other. GWR are re-lettering coaches E and F on HST's to H and J in the event of a HST replacing an IET. Providing the sets arrive on time paper labels are normally used in place of electronic. Edited December 1, 2018 by magic_monkey09

[caradoc]

There are times when it appears that the problem is not so much the trains but the signalling infrastructure and its inability to cope with electrically noisy trains, seemingly to a greater extent than any other railway in Europe. It is approaching four decades ago that electric rolling stock with three-phase drives went into service on DB with far less fuss.

 

Jim

 

Would it not just have been simpler to design trains which are compatible with the existing infrastructure and signalling ?

[Covkid]

Electronic seat reservations will not work if the train is booked for a 9 car and replaced by a 10 car or vice versa. 9 and 10 car electronic seat reservations are not compatible with each other. GWR are re-lettering coaches E and F on HST's to H and J in the event of a HST replacing an IET. Providing the sets arrive on time paper labels are normally used in place of electronic.

 

Another reason why the 9 car units should have been put into traffic first - replacing a 2+8 rake with a 9 car would not have involved pertubation of seat reservations anyway, but from what I can make out, most of the GWR fleet were delivered without a fully functioning system. Whether the seat reservation system change was a GWR change, or Hitachi inspired I don't know. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Covkid

[Coryton]

Electronic seat reservations will not work if the train is booked for a 9 car and replaced by a 10 car or vice versa. 9 and 10 car electronic seat reservations are not compatible with each other. GWR are re-lettering coaches E and F on HST's to H and J in the event of a HST replacing an IET. Providing the sets arrive on time paper labels are normally used in place of electronic.

 

Perhaps I've been unlucky, but the several times I've been on an IET that wasn't the booked formation there were no paper labels - just an announcement that it was a free-for-all.

 

It is of course one advantage of paper labels - even if the train has different seat numbering to the expected set, you can still put the labels somewhere and hope that people look for the seat number printed on the label rather than by the seat itself. (I suppose an announcement to that effect could also be useful but I've never known it happen).

[The Stationmaster]

Although I have some sympathy for much of the above (although I think that if the ROSCOs and TOCs had been left alone to look after an HST replacement they'd be more than capable of getting a train that did what was required with nothing like the drama of the whole IEP saga) the underlined bit is going too far as BR's track record wasn't quite blemish free when it came to managing new train programs and getting the things into service. These days trains are generally based on common platforms and it is a concept that works very well for the most part.

 

Quite agree - far from unusual for BR era trains of all sorts to be put into traffic without 'teething problems', which in some cases led to wholesale withdrawal from service of said new trains and often led to a long & winding trail of mods, mods to mods and so on.  I think it's also something of a grass was greener on the other side' idea to suggest that those who were going to run or work the trains were involved in the development and design of them back in BR days.  Yes there was sometimes some operator input but the meaningful word there is 'sometimes' - there were plenty of features delivered into traffic which was absolutely useless or very poorly designed for those who had to work on them or, particularly, clean them (an area where HSTs have always had their shortcomings).

 

However there was usually one real difference back in BR days and that was that BR engineers generally had some influence in, if not responsibility for, design and construction and some of them had progressed to that role from posts having responsibility for day-to-day maintenance (although that didn't always show) but in many cases today that is no different where train builders do the maintenance.

 

One lovely example from the BR era is of course the Class 59 where just about the only things BR specified were the provision of AWS and how the train braking system would work plus, obviously gauging and swept envelope.  But GM, who often maintained their own built locos managed to put the engine lub oil filler in a position where it wasn't accessible in a loco with a full car width body to UK clearances.  

 

The big problem with the 80X series trains is simple to identify - the bulk of the spec was down to DafT, not the railway industry, and it shows.  Plus they clearly did not properly tie up the daily train presentation part of the contracts by making some elementary mistakes which any experienced operator and commercial folk would have pointed out to them in an instant - and GWR are suffering from the effects of that everyday and so are their passengers.  Overall I don't dislike the trains notwithstanding their shortcomings - they perform well when fed with electricity, they are not good on diesel power, the interior design is pretty good although some things don't always work reliably, their riding is distinctly suspect in places, the reservation system is hit or miss (already explained above), but I find them fairly pleasant to travel in despite these failings.  Above all I wish somebody, anybody, would get the darned things the right way round or at least make sure stations and thus intending passengers are advised when they are not correctly oriented.

 

The other problem they face, and always will, is that they are nothing like the step change, and all the froth and pizzazz that went with it, which occurred when HSTs arrived and in that respect they do fall short in impact.  That again is probably down to DafT.  But looking on the bright side they're nowhere near as negative and backward looking in passenger facility terms as the atrocious 'back to the 1950s' Class 345 things which now occasionally blight the GWML west of Hayes as they accumulate mileage.

[jjb1970]

DafT, splendid department. Is there anything they can't do?

[Ken.W]

Quite agree - far from unusual for BR era trains of all sorts to be put into traffic without 'teething problems', which in some cases led to wholesale withdrawal from service of said new trains and often led to a long & winding trail of mods, mods to mods and so on.

 

However there was usually one real difference back in BR days and that was that BR engineers generally had some influence in, if not responsibility for, design and construction and some of them had progressed to that role from posts having responsibility for day-to-day maintenance (although that didn't always show) but in many cases today that is no different where train builders do the maintenance.

 

Yes, I well remember the introduction of the 'Pacers' here. Brand new 143's came into Heaton straight from Barclays, and our old DMUs were promptly shipped off to other regions, or the recycling plant...

The 143s then, of course, promptly started failing en-mass.

 

The other significant difference back in BR days though, there usually wasn't a shortage of spare stock of some sort....

it was great fun working the 'locals' with a 31, or often a 47, and 3 Mk1s!

[The Stationmaster]

DafT, splendid department. Is there anything they can't do?

 

Shouldn't that read  'Is there anything they can do?'

[jjb1970]

The big problem with the 80X series trains is simple to identify - the bulk of the spec was down to DafT, not the railway industry, and it shows.  Plus they clearly did not properly tie up the daily train presentation part of the contracts by making some elementary mistakes which any experienced operator and commercial folk would have pointed out to them in an instant - and GWR are suffering from the effects of that everyday and so are their passengers.  Overall I don't dislike the trains notwithstanding their shortcomings - they perform well when fed with electricity, they are not good on diesel power, the interior design is pretty good although some things don't always work reliably, their riding is distinctly suspect in places, the reservation system is hit or miss (already explained above), but I find them fairly pleasant to travel in despite these failings.  Above all I wish somebody, anybody, would get the darned things the right way round or at least make sure stations and thus intending passengers are advised when they are not correctly oriented.

 

 

Funnily enough, despite the generally negative reaction to the 80X trains here and among railway enthusiasts in general I have to say that all of the "normal" I know who have travelled on them have been positive about them and I have encountered nothing like the sort of negativity towards the trains we might expect if just talking to rail enthusiasts. Which of course doesn't detract from the various issues about the procurement process and their introduction into service, or the whole bi-mode saga.

 

On DafT, based on my experience with them (admittedly in another transport sector) they are a prime example of the truth that there are certain things you only really learn in real time and that some experience as a practitioner is important to really understand how things work. A lot of their people are actually very clever but their knowledge of industry and technical aspects is mainly in a "I read it in a book or a consultant told me" sort of way with inadequate (or no) experience in industry or working as a practitioner in a relevant field. I bang my head in frustration at some of the wisdom they share.

[Geoff Endacott]

They are not allowed to carry passengers with no competent member of staff present.

 

What do they do with the incompetent members of staff?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Chris116]

The only time I have travelled in an IET was from Cardiff to Paddington. I had a Standard class ticket with a seat reservation and the system appeared to be working. Trouble was my reservation turned out to be in the First class area so I went and sat in an unreserved Standard class seat only to be told off by the person who came through checking tickets. He insisted I go to my reserved seat and would not listen to me so off I went only to be threatened by him a few minutes later for using first class on a standard class ticket. He then said it was my fault that GWR had given me the wrong reservation with my ticket and that I would have to buy a complete new ticket as mine was not valid with my reservation. I told him to call BTP and he went off saying he would get me thrown off the train but strangely never came back!

[royaloak]

A picture posted on another forum showing how good the cameras are-

 

 

Note how every second image is um rather poor.

Edited December 1, 2018 by royaloak

[royaloak]

The only time I have travelled in an IET was from Cardiff to Paddington. I had a Standard class ticket with a seat reservation and the system appeared to be working. Trouble was my reservation turned out to be in the First class area so I went and sat in an unreserved Standard class seat only to be told off by the person who came through checking tickets. He insisted I go to my reserved seat and would not listen to me so off I went only to be threatened by him a few minutes later for using first class on a standard class ticket. He then said it was my fault that GWR had given me the wrong reservation with my ticket and that I would have to buy a complete new ticket as mine was not valid with my reservation. I told him to call BTP and he went off saying he would get me thrown off the train but strangely never came back!

You should have reported the idiot, its hardly your fault GWR have made a pigs ear of the coach lettering/reservations is it!

 

I have heard that GWR will be re-lettering the HSTs so the seating corresponds with the IETs rather than we have now where a Standard reservation on an IET is actually a First class seat on a HST, something they should have done long ago.

Edited December 1, 2018 by royaloak

[jim.snowdon]

You should have reported the idiot, its hardly your fault GWR have made a pigs ear of the coach lettering/reservations is it!

 

I have heard that GWR will be re-lettering the HSTs so the seating corresponds with the IETs rather than we have now where a Standard reservation on an IET is actually a First class seat on a HST, something they should have done long ago.

Why? The status of the ticket takes precedence, even if the reservation is wrong.

 

And no member of staff deserves to be called an idiot for doing his job, even if his employer has made a mess of things.

 

Jim

[jjb1970]

Why? The status of the ticket takes precedence, even if the reservation is wrong.

 

And no member of staff deserves to be called an idiot for doing his job, even if his employer has made a mess of things.

 

Jim

 

But from the post in question it would appear that the person tried to explain just why they weren't sitting in their assigned seat (i.e. it was in first class and their ticket was second). If a conductor ignores that, tells them to go to their assigned seat then makes a big deal of them sitting in first without a first class ticket then I think use of the word idiot is justified really.

[62613]

But from the post in question it would appear that the person tried to explain just why they weren't sitting in their assigned seat (i.e. it was in first class and their ticket was second). If a conductor ignores that, tells them to go to their assigned seat then makes a big deal of them sitting in first without a first class ticket then I think use of the word idiot is justified really.

Would "Jobsworth" be more appropriate?

[jjb1970]

Would "Jobsworth" be more appropriate?

 

Jobsworth, idiot, they both seem appropriate in such a case.

[royaloak]

Why? The status of the ticket takes precedence, even if the reservation is wrong.

 

And no member of staff deserves to be called an idiot for doing his job, even if his employer has made a mess of things.

 

Jim

Um first of all the passenger realised his Standard class ticket wasnt valid in the 'reserved' First class seat so took up an unreserved Standard class seat, after being berated by the Guard/Ticket Examiner he took up his reserved First Class seat despite having a Standard class ticket, he was then berated by the same staff member for being in First class with a Standard class ticket, in my books that makes the staff member an idiot!