RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Trains which cannot achieve that requirement when it was a fundamental requirement are unfit for purpose. Good luck convincing the inhabitants if the DfT and HM Treasury of that. With so much money (not to mention political credibility) at stake you can be sure that Government spokespeople will be busy ignoring reality for many years to come..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chris116 Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Good luck convincing the inhabitants if the DfT and HM Treasury of that. With so much money (not to mention political credibility) at stake you can be sure that Government spokespeople will be busy ignoring reality for many years to come..... So we have two more unfit for purpose groups, the list is growing by the day and most of those identified seem to be among our rulers which is very worrying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Though the bi-mode capability did come in handy for other reasons, as it turned out. I would be most interested to know what would have happened on the various occasions when IETs have been restricted to diesel power if they were electric-only. Would we have had a severe shortage of trains, or would a way have been found to keep them running on electric? The electric ones would have to finish at a depot with working overheads so no issues, unless you can work out a way of getting an electric only unit onto an un-electrified depot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Good luck convincing the inhabitants if the DfT and HM Treasury of that. With so much money (not to mention political credibility) at stake you can be sure that Government spokespeople will be busy ignoring reality for many years to come..... You mean the same way they ignored the laws of physics when the DaFT specified the trains. Hitachi supplied the trains to the specification as laid down by the DaFT (or version 27 of it) so Hitachi are not to blame for the lack of performance, what they are guilty of is not ensuring they were compatible with our legacy signalling. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just out of personal interest, I know that the HST fuel tank has a capacity of circa 1000 gallons. Would anyone on RMweb happen to know what the fuel tank capacity on a 800 is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just out of personal interest, I know that the HST fuel tank has a capacity of circa 1000 gallons. Would anyone on RMweb happen to know what the fuel tank capacity on a 800 is? Not sure of the actual numbers but the 802s normally have between 50% and 75% fuel remaining at the end of the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 The electric ones would have to finish at a depot with working overheads so no issues, unless you can work out a way of getting an electric only unit onto an un-electrified depot? OK - I didn't think all of the times I'd heard of them being restricted to diesel was due to the need for pantograph inspections on individual units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 The electric ones would have to finish at a depot with working overheads so no issues, unless you can work out a way of getting an electric only unit onto an un-electrified depot? I'm not sure that that is a problem, hasn't every electric set got one diesel engine set to get it home. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) I'm not sure that that is a problem, hasn't every electric set got one diesel engine set to get it home. Jamie They have one (or 2) diesel set(s) to maintain hotel power, there wont be much left for propulsion and it would only be used to clear the line, it wont be used to travel any sort of distance and any hills would render it useless. 700hp/560kW wont provide much forward momentum to a 250 tonne train with 125mph gearing especially after supplying all the on board services first. Edited December 10, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covkid Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I'm not sure that that is a problem, hasn't every electric set got one diesel engine set to get it home. Jamie They have one (or 2) diesel set(s) to maintain hotel power, there wont be much left for propulsion and it would only be used to clear the line, it wont be used to travel any sort of distance and any hills would render it useless. 700hp/560kW wont provide much forward momentum to a 250 tonne train with 125mph gearing especially after supplying all the on board services first. I haven't seen any information in the public domain about class 801 performance on it's solitary emergency diesel engine. Wonder if any of them have been allowed out on NR metals to test it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I would hope that the hotel supply could be temporarily suspended so all power is available to get the unit going. Hopefully it would not take too long to get to some juice or a station where passengers could be safely detrained if it is really bad, so the time with intermittent hotel supply is not too long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) I would hope that the hotel supply could be temporarily suspended so all power is available to get the unit going. Hopefully it would not take too long to get to some juice or a station where passengers could be safely detrained if it is really bad, so the time with intermittent hotel supply is not too long. Do please show me how to that on the TMS or individually in each carriage then! Neither the driver or Guard have access to the necessary controls plus the way the contracts are written we arent allowed to touch most of the MCBs except in an emergency, but what do I know, I just drive the things! Edited December 10, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I haven't seen any information in the public domain about class 801 performance on it's solitary emergency diesel engine. Wonder if any of them have been allowed out on NR metals to test it. They are probably still waiting for it to start moving! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 I haven't seen any information in the public domain about class 801 performance on it's solitary emergency diesel engine. Wonder if any of them have been allowed out on NR metals to test it. It will be rubbish - but that is not he point. The diesel engine on the 801s is only designed to:- (i) keep the on board services going durin g the time the OLE is not available and (ii) Move the train at a slow speed (20mph) into a station for evacuation purposes or into a siding to clear the line. It is NOT designed to be used in normal service in any circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Clearly there have been problems with the specification while the train presentation contract looks as if it was either drawn up by a juvenile or Hitachi are in deep dodo trying to comply with it (or both). Add in limited power on diesel, reliability problems.........Based on my GW commuting experience from Didcot over the last few weeks, Hitachi is still having serious issues delivering anything consistently. On the same early morning diagram over the course of 10 days we've had 2x5 car 800s, 1x9 car 800, HSTs and (this morning) a single 5 car 802. Must be a nightmare for the staff to cope with (as well as the passengers this morning). But at least the 802 (running on diesel under the wires) managed 120mph down the gentle hill through Goring, compared with 800s that struggle to get above 113mph several miles further on. It all seems to be a bit of a mess, and with just 13 GW HST diagrams remaining, I hope that Hitachi gets its, er, sH*t (thanks, Royal Oak!) together soon. As an aside, the GW staff IMHO are doing a very good job to maintain a reasonable level of service under the circumstances. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Do please show me how to that on the TMS or individually in each carriage then! Neither the driver or Guard have access to the necessary controls plus the way the contracts are written we arent allowed to touch most of the MCBs except in an emergency, but what do I know, I just drive the things! I doubt you drive 801s - you're GWR aren't you?I've no idea what they'll be like, but 801s having additional power management controls when running on the single diesel engine doesn't sound that crazy an idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) I doubt you drive 801s - you're GWR aren't you? I've no idea what they'll be like, but 801s having additional power management controls when running on the single diesel engine doesn't sound that crazy an idea. Nobody drives 801s in passenger service because none are in passenger service. I am GWR but we can put the 800s and 802s into turnaround mode which shuts down all but one engine (or 2 on a 9 coach) and to say they are 'leisurely' would be an understatement and that is without the extra weight of the passengers, in fact I did it last night with a 10 coach 802 on its way to the depot and it took almost full power just to get it moving (slight uphill grade and not something I will be repeating) so although I dont drive 801s I can drive the others with only one engine running so do know what I am talking about, unlike some posters with their 'surely this' or 'in my opinion that' posts. which dont take into account the contracts or physical limitations of what the crew are allowed to touch. Why would the 801s have extra power management when running on the diesel engine(s), they are not designed or built to run for long distances on diesel so there isnt any need, they are a 'standard' IET but without most of the Generating Units fitted, nothing more than that. I remember now why I said I was going to stop posting in this thread. Edited December 10, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Well that explains why (for example) being able to shut down the AC for a time to have a bit more juice for the motors might be a good idea. Doesn't mean they have or will, but they probably should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Why would the 801s have extra power management when running on the diesel engine(s), they are not designed or built to run for long distances on diesel so there isnt any need, they are a 'standard' IET but without most of the Generating Units fitted, nothing more than that. Because with very limited power it might be useful to choose where that power went? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) Because with very limited power it might be useful to choose where that power went? Yeah I agree but it doesnt change the FACT it isnt possible. How long do you think it would take for a reasonably full coach to heat up to a temperature of 27 degrees when the air con is turned off? I do know the answer because we had a Hitachi fitter do it as we left Exeter St Davids heading South West to fix a problem a couple of months ago. The answer is Powderham, about 6 minutes travel time from Exeter, it went up by basically a degree a minute, he turned it back on at Powderham so I dont know how high it would have got too. How long are you going to turn the AC off for so you can use the power for traction, 10 minutes, half an hour? Edited December 10, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) Do please show me how to that on the TMS or individually in each carriage then! Neither the driver or Guard have access to the necessary controls plus the way the contracts are written we arent allowed to touch most of the MCBs except in an emergency, but what do I know, I just drive the things! Nobody drives 801s in passenger service because none are in passenger service. I am GWR but we can put the 800s and 802s into turnaround mode which shuts down all but one engine (or 2 on a 9 coach) and to say they are 'leisurely' would be an understatement and that is without the extra weight of the passengers, in fact I did it last night with a 10 coach 802 on its way to the depot and it took almost full power just to get it moving (slight uphill grade and not something I will be repeating) so although I dont drive 801s I can drive the others with only one engine running so do know what I am talking about, unlike some posters with their 'surely this' or 'in my opinion that' posts. which dont take into account the contracts or physical limitations of what the crew are allowed to touch. Why would the 801s have extra power management when running on the diesel engine(s), they are not designed or built to run for long distances on diesel so there isnt any need, they are a 'standard' IET but without most of the Generating Units fitted, nothing more than that. I remember now why I said I was going to stop posting in this thread. Yeah I agree but it doesnt change the FACT it isnt possible. How long do you think it would take for a reasonably full coach to heat up to a temperature of 27 degrees when the air con is turned off? I do know the answer because we had a Hitachi fitter do it as we left Exeter St Davids heading South West to fix a problem a couple of months ago. The answer is Powderham, about 6 minutes travel time from Exeter, it went up by basically a degree a minute, he turned it back on at Powderham so I dont know how high it would have got too. How long are you going to turn the AC off for so you can use the power for traction, 10 minutes, half an hour? I do wish you would stop making the assumption that because you drive the things you know every thing there is to know about all of them. Even though you have never driven or been trained on an 801 you still assume you know everything about them, including assuming how an 801 will handle power management on one engine, even claiming as "FACT" it is not possible when it is at best a guess. If I was claiming something as "FACT" I would make damn sure it is before posting, If you have a short memory I will point you to the post where I provided proof your belief was wrong, (I can't call it fact because it wasn't) which especially upset you because you assumed I had no proof, and you went away sulking, because what you believed was "FACT" turned out not to be... So unless you want to get burned again I suggest you take your arrogance down a notch, or you may end up sulking again. Edited December 10, 2018 by Titan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Yeah I agree but it doesnt change the FACT it isnt possible. How long do you think it would take for a reasonably full coach to heat up to a temperature of 27 degrees when the air con is turned off? I do know the answer because we had a Hitachi fitter do it as we left Exeter St Davids heading South West to fix a problem a couple of months ago. The answer is Powderham, about 6 minutes travel time from Exeter, it went up by basically a degree a minute, he turned it back on at Powderham so I dont know how high it would have got too. How long are you going to turn the AC off for so you can use the power for traction, 10 minutes, half an hour? Thanks for the info Royal Oak. It is very useful to hear the actual situation from someone who deals with these things on a daily basis. Obviously with the controls that can be built in to new units almost anything could be possible but for the reasons that you've stated you as the driver can't use those controls. It can't be easy for the train crew trying to do a job in very difficult conditions. Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Thanks for the info Royal Oak. It is very useful to hear the actual situation from someone who deals with these things on a daily basis. Obviously with the controls that can be built in to new units almost anything could be possible but for the reasons that you've stated you as the driver can't use those controls. It can't be easy for the train crew trying to do a job in very difficult conditions. Jamie Or it could be automatic without any intervention by the crew? Would not be the first diesel to automatically suspend hotel supply when it was better used for traction... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 I would hope that the hotel supply could be temporarily suspended so all power is available to get the unit going. A bit like "Divert all power to forward shields" from a popular TV series..................? What we need is a Scotty or La Forge on all IEPS. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 It can't be easy for the train crew trying to do a job in very difficult conditions. Jamie We had a failure at Devonport a couple of weeks ago, the driver wanted to 'turn it off and back on again' to reset the computers but wasnt allowed, the train sat there for 2 hours waiting for a Hitachi fitter to get to it, guess what he did to get it working again? Demoralising and embarrassing doesnt even come close to covering it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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