Class 800 - Updates

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Lack of reservations? Crap utilisation? I thought we'd try them yesterday on a family return to the capital. The mid-morning train was standing room only and no sign of a guard to police the ignoramuses who had a ticket for their hand luggage in the seat next to them. Likewise the late peak departure from Marylebone was only 3 cars so standing room only, and it failed at Banbury. Again, no sign of a guard until we got on the next train and even then there wasn't a ticket check.

 

Any reason why they can't use the loco hauled sets more intensively and provide more seats? First and last time on Chiltern for us, next time we'll be back on the WCML.

 

These are small niggles compared to some of the issues that have affected other TOCs though - try asking Thameslink, Southern or Northern users! Standing room only NO GUARDS (thanks to a certain Messrs Wilkinson + Grayling), etc

 

Lets face it, it was Chiltern themselves who decided to bring back the Mk3s and expand their offering - IIRC there was no obligation to do so under the 20 year franchise.

 

Similarly Chiltern invested in the infrastructure (Project Evergreen) to boost capacity and introduce new services - I don't see anyone else rushing to do that with their 7 year franchise.

 

Yes things might be tailing off now but thats not exactly unexpected given the franchise is drawing to an end and the complete mess HM Government is making of letting new ones meaning a lack of confidence as to what the future will bring.

[jim.snowdon]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

These are small niggles compared to some of the issues that have affected other TOCs though - try asking Thameslink, Southern or Northern users! Standing room only NO GUARDS (thanks to a certain Messrs Wilkinson + Grayling), etc

On services that are operating on fully signalled lines, with continuous radio communication between driver and signaller, what exactly makes a guard (in the traditional sense) a necessity, as against a nice to have? The railway has moved on from the days of signal boxes at intervals, with dark spaces in between and communications with the train only possible by stopping it at a signal box.

 The "guard's" job these days is more to do with passengers and revenue.

 

Jim 

[The Stationmaster]

30 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

On services that are operating on fully signalled lines, with continuous radio communication between driver and signaller, what exactly makes a guard (in the traditional sense) a necessity, as against a nice to have? The railway has moved on from the days of signal boxes at intervals, with dark spaces in between and communications with the train only possible by stopping it at a signal box.

 The "guard's" job these days is more to do with passengers and revenue.

 

Jim 

Yes, and interestingly a train was cancelled on the B&H Line last week because there was no Guard available to work on an IET (door camera problems so a Guard is currently needed on the Bedwyns).  Sort of takes us back full circle to why BR started going over to DOO(P) in the first place - shortages of Guards so trains were being cancelled.   (Reason for the shortages - it was getting ever more difficult to recruit Guards, the problem existed by the early 1970s and back then one of my past colleagues spent several days in Shepton Mallet trying to recruits chaps being discharged from a certain place of detention there because it was so difficult to get recruits.)

[Coryton]

16 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes, and interestingly a train was cancelled on the B&H Line last week because there was no Guard available to work on an IET (door camera problems so a Guard is currently needed on the Bedwyns).  Sort of takes us back full circle to why BR started going over to DOO(P) in the first place - shortages of Guards so trains were being cancelled.   (Reason for the shortages - it was getting ever more difficult to recruit Guards, the problem existed by the early 1970s and back then one of my past colleagues spent several days in Shepton Mallet trying to recruits chaps being discharged from a certain place of detention there because it was so difficult to get recruits.)

 

OK but is there really a recruitment problem now, as opposed to companies not hiring enough staff to cover illness etc.?

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

OK but is there really a recruitment problem now, as opposed to companies not hiring enough staff to cover illness etc.?

I would be surprised if there isn't a recruitment problem.  It's noticeable that on occasions when there should be a Conductor on trains on our branch there sometimes isn't one and presumably that is down to a shortage rather than anything else because money is potentially being lost when the job isn't covered.  Equally of course if we regard the camera/screen problem on the IETs as 'something which can be resolved' why should anyone bother to recruit and train Guards only to make them redundant when the technical problem is resolved - that approach would be no different from the way things were done back in BR days.

[Coryton]

31 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I would be surprised if there isn't a recruitment problem.  It's noticeable that on occasions when there should be a Conductor on trains on our branch there sometimes isn't one and presumably that is down to a shortage rather than anything else because money is potentially being lost when the job isn't covered.  

 

Maybe.

 

Doesn't that depend on how much is lost vs what it would cost to have enough staff to be (reasonably) sure of always having cover, even though some would just be sitting around doing nothing much of the time?

[Siberian Snooper]

10 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Lack of reservations? Crap utilisation? I thought we'd try them yesterday on a family return to the capital. The mid-morning train was standing room only and no sign of a guard to police the ignoramuses who had a ticket for their hand luggage in the seat next to them. Likewise the late peak departure from Marylebone was only 3 cars so standing room only, and it failed at Banbury. Again, no sign of a guard until we got on the next train and even then there wasn't a ticket check.

 

Any reason why they can't use the loco hauled sets more intensively and provide more seats? First and last time on Chiltern for us, next time we'll be back on the WCML.

 

The joys of half term travel!

 

I suspect that the relatively cheaply priced tickets is a huge incentive to travel on Chiltern trains for cash strapped families.

 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

On services that are operating on fully signalled lines, with continuous radio communication between driver and signaller, what exactly makes a guard (in the traditional sense) a necessity, as against a nice to have? The railway has moved on from the days of signal boxes at intervals, with dark spaces in between and communications with the train only possible by stopping it at a signal box.

 The "guard's" job these days is more to do with passengers and revenue.

 

Jim 

 

I was responding specifically to 298s post where he was bemoaning the lack of a Guard in the Chiltern railways service he used and implying it was absolutely terrible - not making a point about the need for a traditional Guard generally. That debate was had in a now locked thread discussing DOO.

 

 

[298]

14 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

The joys of half term travel!

 

I suspect that the relatively cheaply priced tickets is a huge incentive to travel on Chiltern trains for cash strapped families.

 

 

 

 

 

Only £10 cheaper than Virgin which is 20 minutes quicker...

[The Stationmaster]

30 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Maybe.

 

Doesn't that depend on how much is lost vs what it would cost to have enough staff to be (reasonably) sure of always having cover, even though some would just be sitting around doing nothing much of the time?

Not quite - what they do I believe is cover the turnas which rake in the highest on-train revenue (which doesn't seem such a daft idea when you think about it).

[Siberian Snooper]

42 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

Only £10 cheaper than Virgin which is 20 minutes quicker...

 

There's a bigger difference, if booking in advance,  rather than turn up and go.

 

 

[iands]

Yesterday evening I was very fortunate enough to visit the Hitachi factory on an IRO arranged visit.

 

The staff showing us around were very kind and friendly and were able to answer most of our questions, except for a couple that I asked, one in relation to jumper cables between each vehicle potentially acting as a ladder, and another question relating to immunisation.

 

Thought I'd share a few photos. Most of the vehicles being fitted-out were the Azumas, but there were also a couple of 385s still in the factory, one of them being '001'.

As you will, see the factory was immaculately clean and tidy for an assembly plant (somewhat different to my weekly jaunts around Doncaster Plant in the late 70s/early 80s). Fitting-out was actually taking place whilst we were walking around and we were allowed to take pictures of anything - the only restriction on photography was to avoid shots (as much as possible) of staff working on the vehicles as not all people are happy to have their photo taken whilst working. Understandable, I'm not too sure I would like 20 or so cameras clicking away whilst trying to do my job. 

 

A general view of the factory with a number of vehicles in various stages of fit-out, and the internal traverser in the foreground. There is another traverser external to the building at the far end of this shot.

 

This is a photo of vehicles on the other side of the traverser (with the first shot now behind the camera). Basically, the body shells arrive at the factory via road transport and enter the factory on the far left of this photo where the fit-out process begins. Once one fit-out process has been completed (whatever it may be e.g. fitting windows, fitting wiring looms, electrical control cabinets, seats, etc., etc.) each vehicle is moved along the bays on temporary bogies (until it is time to fit the correct bogies) to it's next fit-out procedure.

 

As there is a 10MB limit on file sizes that's all for now, but if anyone is interested I'll post a few more either later today or tomorrow.

 

 

[4630]

26 minutes ago, iands said:

Yesterday evening I was very fortunate enough to visit the Hitachi factory on an IRO arranged visit.

 

...but if anyone is interested I'll post a few more either later today or tomorrow.

 

 

 

Very interesting.  Yes, please post more Ian.

[31A]

Thank for showing us these Ian, looking forward to seeing more!

[caradoc]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes, and interestingly a train was cancelled on the B&H Line last week because there was no Guard available to work on an IET (door camera problems so a Guard is currently needed on the Bedwyns).  Sort of takes us back full circle to why BR started going over to DOO(P) in the first place - shortages of Guards so trains were being cancelled.   (Reason for the shortages - it was getting ever more difficult to recruit Guards, the problem existed by the early 1970s and back then one of my past colleagues spent several days in Shepton Mallet trying to recruits chaps being discharged from a certain place of detention there because it was so difficult to get recruits.)

 

In the late 1980s, in the run-up to introducing DOO on the Glasgow North Electric routes, BR (understandably) did not fill Guards vacancies. However implementation of DOO was then delayed, resulting severe Guard shortages for several months. The late shift Controller for that area, in conjunction with the Train Crew Supervisor at Yoker, spent every shift trying to cover as many trains as possible, however there were cancellations every day. There was one train in particular, which ran ECS from the depot, formed an evening peak service, and returned to the depot, which never ran, because it was easy to cancel and released a Guard for more productive work. So neither DOO, nor cancellations due to Crew shortages, are merely a result of privatisation !

 

[iands]

19 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

In the late 1980s, in the run-up to introducing DOO on the Glasgow North Electric routes, BR (understandably) did not fill Guards vacancies. However implementation of DOO was then delayed, resulting severe Guard shortages for several months. The late shift Controller for that area, in conjunction with the Train Crew Supervisor at Yoker, spent every shift trying to cover as many trains as possible, however there were cancellations every day. There was one train in particular, which ran ECS from the depot, formed an evening peak service, and returned to the depot, which never ran, because it was easy to cancel and released a Guard for more productive work. So neither DOO, nor cancellations due to Crew shortages, are merely a result of privatisation !

 

The DOO Cab Secure Radio scheme in Glasgow was referred to as the SMA - Single Manning Agreement (or sometimes it was referred to as the Strathclyde Manning Agreement - depending on who you conversed with). A subtle technical difference between the two systems was that the SMA did not monitor the DSD functionality (and never did) unlike the DOO CSR schemes installed elsewhere on the UK rail network - but that has gone of the Guard topic, sorry.

[caradoc]

15 minutes ago, iands said:

The DOO Cab Secure Radio scheme in Glasgow was referred to as the SMA - Single Manning Agreement (or sometimes it was referred to as the Strathclyde Manning Agreement - depending on who you conversed with). A subtle technical difference between the two systems was that the SMA did not monitor the DSD functionality (and never did) unlike the DOO CSR schemes installed elsewhere on the UK rail network - but that has gone of the Guard topic, sorry.

 

SMA stood for Strathclyde Manning Agreement Ian (I referred to it as DOO to keep things simple !), as BR introduced it to avoid losing funding from Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive. It led to a series of strikes in 1985 - 30 plus years on and there are still disputes over the same issue.

[iands]

7 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

SMA stood for Strathclyde Manning Agreement Ian (I referred to it as DOO to keep things simple !), as BR introduced it to avoid losing funding from Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive. It led to a series of strikes in 1985 - 30 plus years on and there are still disputes over the same issue.

Thanks Caradoc for confirming the correct title as "Strathclyde". As I mentioned, both were used but the "Single" bit being the incorrect term.

[iands]

A couple more photos from the Hitachi factory.

 

385043, the back of which you can see on the far left of the first photo posted earlier.

 

And what I assume is one of the Driving Trailers of unit 801103 judging by the info on the sign.

 

I'll post a couple more photos tomorrow.

[4630]

LNER has announced today that the first Azuma in passenger service from Edinburgh to London Kings Cross will commence on 1st August 2019.

 

https://twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1134434038121488384

 

 

[iands]

Another couple of photos from the Hitachi visit.

 

The other end of the vehicle of 385043 seen in an earlier photo.

 

And for comparison, the end view of one of the Azuma vehicles.

 

A couple more to follow shortly.

[iands]

As promised.

 

Yet another view of 385043. Apologies for 385043 being slightly out of focus in the photo but I only had my phone with me to take the pictures and it focussed on the lifting jack rather than the unit, which was a bit hard to tell by looking at the phone screen when taking the photo. (Note to self: next time you go on what might well be a once in a lifetime visit, take a proper camera with you!).

 

The bogies are also designed and built by Hitachi and shipped into the uk with each vehicle (though not attached to the vehicle). Each vehicle is assigned two specific bogies 'as a matching pair' for its initial build and will stay with the vehicle for entry-into-service up until the time the bogies "service mileage" target is reached (or a serious fault develops before this target is reached that requires a bogie change), then the bogies are changed for any other same spec bogies that are available.

 

A question was asked about the long term plans for the factory once the existing orders have been completed. The response was that if no new build orders were placed with Hitachi in the future, it was envisaged that mid-life refurbs/upgrades would be undertaken at the factory. So hopefully some good ongoing employment opportunities for the local populace and continued use of that stretch of line with potentially lots of unit 'comings-and-goings' for years to come.

 

I still have a few more photos to sort and will post more over the next few days.

[Coryton]

45 minutes ago, iands said:

Another couple of photos from the Hitachi visit.

 

The other end of the vehicle of 385043 seen in an earlier photo.

 

 

And for comparison, the end view of one of the Azuma vehicles.

 

A couple more to follow shortly.

 

Keep 'em coming...fascinating.

 

And impressive they were happy with photography.

 

The coupling on that looks rather like the inter-coach ones on the Bachmann 00 Voyager.

 

I don't expect they have to turn the train upside down to poke them in though.

[iands]

Today's offering from the Hitachi visit.

 

One of the Driver Trailers up on the temporary bogies for easier access to the lower half/underneath for installation of the various equipment, components, wiring etc. Some of the group accessed the drivers cab for a look, but there was very little to see as the fit-out of the drivers cab hadn't really started, just a couple of cables hanging down, so I didn't bother to take any photos of what was an empty space.

 

That said, I did take a photo of what is an empty coach. What struck me (but not literally), was how low the overhead luggage rack seemed to be compared to other rolling stock. I'm just over 6' 1" (on a good day) and I could rest my chin on top of the overhead luggage rack edge. May be it's my imagination, but I don't recall overhead luggage racks on other rolling stock being that low, or maybe it's a bit of an optical illusion because no seats were fitted. If the overhead luggage racks are bit lower than on other rolling stock, I'm sure it will benefit those among us of a shorter stature when putting luggage on or off the racks, but might cause a bit of a problem for us 6 footers sat in a window seat if we stand up too quickly and bang our heads, or at least a shoulder, if we are not careful.

 

Hopefully the next photo might show better what I mean, to follow in a few minutes.

Edited June 1, 2019 by iands

[Siberian Snooper]

I've not noticed the luggage rack to be any lower than on other trains.