Class 800 - Updates

[jamie92208]

On ‎29‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 22:50, billbedford said:

 

Not Hell or Halifax?

In the interests of decency, I better not put in writing the test that a Home Office Pathologist used to use to determine if one of his customers was from Hull.

 

Jamie

[159220]

On 30/08/2019 at 01:44, royaloak said:

TBH lately I have noted there is very little difference between an 800 and an 802 despite the (supposed) extra power of the 802s.

 

The best test is climbing Hemerdon Bank as there is a 60mph restriction at the bottom and very little room to build speed before hitting the gradient, an 802 will get up to a maximum of about 72 before falling back to about 55 at the top (a HST would get up to about 75 and still be doing 65 near the top), I had a 9 coach 800 up there the other week (we dont get many 800s down here) and the speeds were with 1 or 2mph of what I would expect from a 9 coach 802 so either the 800s are running at the higher rating (very unlikely) or the 802s are not providing the full 700kW we are supposed to be getting.

 

They are okay to drive if a bit boring, until all the alarms start then they are bloody annoying although that has settled down of late.

 

The IEP/Agility West class 800s are currently undergoing software modifications which up-rates the engine drive system performance to that of the Eversholt class 802s - inc. 0.82m/s acceleration. This allows the IEP part of the fleet for GWR to deliver the December 2019 timetable. The class 800s won't (yet) be receiving larger dynamic braking resistance performance/radiator grills as per the class 802, so braking shall continue to be disc - thus (for now) the class 802 is more suited to West of England (extended diesel mode) operations. 

[Mallard60022]

14 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

They could save money on individual plates by just calling them all "North of Potters Bar".

You mean by that where they mostly konk out before reaching said place?

P

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 159220 said:

 

The IEP/Agility West class 800s are currently undergoing software modifications which up-rates the engine drive system performance to that of the Eversholt class 802s - inc. 0.82m/s acceleration. This allows the IEP part of the fleet for GWR to deliver the December 2019 timetable. The class 800s won't (yet) be receiving larger dynamic braking resistance performance/radiator grills as per the class 802, so braking shall continue to be disc - thus (for now) the class 802 is more suited to West of England (extended diesel mode) operations. 

So yet another expensive VO to be signed off by somebody.  At this rate it would have been cheaper to continue the electrification because I bet Hitachi are charging a bomb for the work (and they're fools if they aren't).

[Zomboid]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

So yet another expensive VO to be signed off by somebody.  At this rate it would have been cheaper to continue the electrification because I bet Hitachi are charging a bomb for the work (and they're fools if they aren't).

It would probably have been cheaper to finish the electrification than change the order to full bi-mode.

With the cost of the subsequent changes I expect the wires could have got to Swansea.

[JJGraphics]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It would probably have been cheaper to finish the electrification than change the order to full bi-mode.

With the cost of the subsequent changes I expect the wires could have got to Swansea.

 

. . . especially when you include the cost of the electricity to cart hundreds of tons of diesel oil and shut-down engines about under the OHLE.

 

John

[royaloak]

6 hours ago, 159220 said:

The class 800s won't (yet) be receiving larger dynamic braking resistance performance/radiator grills as per the class 802, so braking shall continue to be disc - thus (for now) the class 802 is more suited to West of England (extended diesel mode) operations. 

None of the fleet are using the dynamic brakes on diesel or electric and they havent been for months, probably due to NR picking up the tab for the increased wear because of the cancelled electrification projects, why use dynamic brakes when you can make huge profits on the pads and discs you have to change!

[159220]

7 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It would probably have been cheaper to finish the electrification than change the order to full bi-mode.

With the cost of the subsequent changes I expect the wires could have got to Swansea.

The original VO from 801s to 800s was somewhere between £300,000 and £3,000,000 - I am not saying where, but it is significantly cheaper than full electrification in the hundreds of millions. 

Not that I am defending the decision! My opinion is we should be electrifying 200 track miles a year through a rolling, efficient, programme.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, 159220 said:

The original VO from 801s to 800s was somewhere between £300,000 and £3,000,000 - I am not saying where, but it is significantly cheaper than full electrification in the hundreds of millions. 

Not that I am defending the decision! My opinion is we should be electrifying 200 track miles a year through a rolling, efficient, programme.

But that is surely just the cost of the VO?  So it won't include the additional maintenance and fuel costs, additional stock of spare parts, additional fleet mods/software updates should they be required, or the extra time out of traffic for engine maintenance etc.

[rodent279]

35 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But that is surely just the cost of the VO?  So it won't include the additional maintenance and fuel costs, additional stock of spare parts, additional fleet mods/software updates should they be required, or the extra time out of traffic for engine maintenance etc.

Hitachi must be looking at the UK, comparing it to Japan, and rubbing their hands in glee-Xmas every day for them.

Where else would you be able to sell a diesel and an electric train rolled into one, and get to be able to charge for maintaining the diesels for the foreseeable future, because the government won't take the long term view and electrify properly?

[Zomboid]

It's not just us... Japan are seriously looking at some similar insanity. The Nagasaki shinkansen may well be a gauge change train with all the complexity and ongoing costs that that involves so they can avoid building a relatively small part of the route from Kurume to Takeo Onsen. So it'll have a low speed narrow gauge trundle between two sections of proper shinkansen.

[Coryton]

9 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It's not just us... Japan are seriously looking at some similar insanity. The Nagasaki shinkansen may well be a gauge change train with all the complexity and ongoing costs that that involves so they can avoid building a relatively small part of the route from Kurume to Takeo Onsen. So it'll have a low speed narrow gauge trundle between two sections of proper shinkansen.

Wouldn't that be fun though?

[St. Simon]

9 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Where else would you be able to sell a diesel and an electric train rolled into one

 

The Bi-Mode concept has been around for a while on the continent....

 

Simon

[Zomboid]

12 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

The Bi-Mode concept has been around for a while on the continent....

 

Simon

I don't know when the concept first appeared, but the EMD FL9 bi-modes were built in the late 1950s. (And were a considerable downgrade on the electric locos they replaced, but that's a bit of American madness for you).

[Oldddudders]

8 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I don't know when the concept first appeared, but the EMD FL9 bi-modes were built in the late 1950s. (And were a considerable downgrade on the electric locos they replaced, but that's a bit of American madness for you).

The McGinnis era at New Haven seems to have had its share of financial problems and the FL9s were another way of reducing costs. I suspect that the market for New York - Boston train travel was already on the wane, as was most such travel in the wake of the Boeing 707. 

 

But British bi-modes probably started with the EDL, aka Class 73? 

[rodent279]

12 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It's not just us... Japan are seriously looking at some similar insanity. The Nagasaki shinkansen may well be a gauge change train with all the complexity and ongoing costs that that involves so they can avoid building a relatively small part of the route from Kurume to Takeo Onsen. So it'll have a low speed narrow gauge trundle between two sections of proper shinkansen.

Off topic slightly-does anyone do a working model of a gauge changing train, like a Talgo?

[JeffP]

12 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Hitachi must be looking at the UK, comparing it to Japan, and rubbing their hands in glee-Xmas every day for them.

Where else would you be able to sell a diesel and an electric train rolled into one, and get to be able to charge for maintaining the diesels for the foreseeable future, because the government won't take the long term view and electrify properly?

I was once told that the Japanese referred to the UK as "Treasure Island". For YEARS we have been paying £ for $ for everything. Even when the $ was nearer 2 to the £.

[dhjgreen]

51 minutes ago, JeffP said:

I was once told that the Japanese referred to the UK as "Treasure Island". For YEARS we have been paying £ for $ for everything. Even when the $ was nearer 2 to the £.

That's odd, when I was buying in Japan everthing was priced in USD.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The McGinnis era at New Haven seems to have had its share of financial problems and the FL9s were another way of reducing costs. I suspect that the market for New York - Boston train travel was already on the wane, as was most such travel in the wake of the Boeing 707. 

 

But British bi-modes probably started with the EDL, aka Class 73? 

Unless you count bi-mode battery electric locos which could run off either the conductor rail or use battery power - in which case you back to the District Railway in 1909.

[JeffP]

9 hours ago, dhjgreen said:

That's odd, when I was buying in Japan everthing was priced in USD.

Maybe...but I'm on about Japanese goods pricing.

CD player, $200, in the UK £200.

Camera $1200, in the UK £1200

etc etc etc

[royaloak]

On 02/09/2019 at 17:01, royaloak said:

None of the fleet are using the dynamic brakes on diesel or electric and they havent been for months, probably due to NR picking up the tab for the increased wear because of the cancelled electrification projects, why use dynamic brakes when you can make huge profits on the pads and discs you have to change!

Sorry about quoting myself but just to prove I am a liar I drove 800309 today and the dynamic brake was working  (and the blending issue was as bad as ever), I only found out on arrival at Swindon as I sailed past the stop car marker with the brakes doing the square root of naff all despite putting more and more brake in until at full service as the computer tried to make up its mind that the dynamic wasnt going to work as the speed was too low so it had better use the pads and discs, bleddy brilliant!

 

This is the first one I have driven with the DB working for well over 6 months and I hope its another 6 months before I get another!

[4630]

11 minutes ago, royaloak said:

 

This is the first one I have driven with the DB working for well over 6 months and I hope its another 6 months before I get another!

 

As a matter of curiosity after the experience you’ve outlined, presumably with the approaching autumn and the potential adverse rail head conditions, braking to a stop for any given point, be it stop marker or signal, will be even more of a challenge. 

[royaloak]

24 minutes ago, 4630 said:

 

As a matter of curiosity after the experience you’ve outlined, presumably with the approaching autumn and the potential adverse rail head conditions, braking to a stop for any given point, be it stop marker or signal, will be even more of a challenge. 

Because its been so long since I had one with an operative dynamic brake (still with the same issue which caused it to be isolated in the first place) I didnt check the gauges so it did catch me out, but now I am aware that some are having the dynamic brake reinstated I will keep an eye on it in future.

 

The brakes are actually pretty good, the issues are when you are braking for a station and have lost most of the speed and release the brake to allow the train to reach the stop marker, when you re-apply the brakes the computer tries to use the dynamic brake but because of the low speed the traction motors wont produce enough electricity (they are effectively alternators at this point) to cause retardation so there is no braking effect, after a few seconds the computer will realise the problem and then initiate the air brakes, unfortunately this means we have no brake force just when we need it most and the train doesnt stop where we intended which can lead to station over-runs etc, the easy fix would be for the computer to swap (blend) from dynamic to air brakes at a higher speed, say 30mph, which means we would get the problem out of the way much earlier and could then control the train properly and stop on the marker, plus most of the braking would be dynamic so not much brake wear overall.

 

Unfortunately this seems to be an impossible task (despite Voyagers and other trains successfully using dynamic and air brakes with no blending issues for nearly 20 years) so most of the fleet are using just the air brakes from 125 mph to 0 mph which 'solves' the blending issue but eats through pads and discs like there is no tomorrow but as Network Rail are picking up the tab its a nice little earner* for Hitachi so they are in no rush to fix the issue.

 

As the pads and discs are only supposed to be used below about 15 mph on the 802s all the time, and 800s when on electric (all the time on the 800s when running on diesel) you can imagine the increased wear rate.

 

Still when taken on board with the CCTV faults, traction converter faults, engines which shut down when they feel like it, the overheating issues etc etc (plus of course the profits from all the pads and discs Network Rail are paying for) its no wonder they havent come up with a fix yet.

 

* I was told the cost of A brake pad from a normally reliable source and it was well into 4 figures, so with 80 on a 5 coach and 144 on a 9 coach set the costs are eye watering.

 

As for leaf fall, Network Rail have been cutting back a lot of foliage so it shouldnt be too much of an issue, plus the drivers know to brake bloomin early for adverse signals to give us as much room as possible to get the speed down.

Edited September 3, 2019 by royaloak

[bgman]

In light of the above I think I'll be sticking with my mountain bike ! 

[rodent279]

It really shouldn't be rocket science to fix an issue like that. Why the computer can't look at train speed, and decide it's too low for dynamic braking, and just apply the friction brakes, instead of using the dynamic brake, sensing the braking effort isn't high enough, and switching to friction braking, I don't know.