Class 800 - Updates

[David41283]

Three photos from around 9 o'clock this morning. Looked very smart.

 

As if to prove I only just caught the early running train, the first picture is a little rushed....

 

 

 

 

It was noteworthy how much interest it generated, and everyone (not enthusiasts) seemed to know what it was - GWR PR machine has done a good job!

 

Cheers

 

[Reorte]

I almost hate myself for thinking that they don't look too bad

[cornish trains jez]

A 2+8 HST has 4500 hp to play with - that's 450 hp per car.

 

A 5 car class 802 will have 2820 hp and a 9 car 4700 hp - that's at worst 520 hp and best 564 hp per car.

 

A 5 car class 800 will have 2250 hp and a 9 car 3750 hp - that's at worst 416 hp and best 450 hp per car.

 

However both the class 800 and the class 802 have identical diesels it's just that the class 802 diesels will be configured to deliver an extra 200 hp.

 

Thus we see that a class 802 will have plenty of power over a HST and the class 800 could be configured by one bloke with a screwdriver (or a software change as it's known nowadays) to easily become a class 802.

 

The only issue with power seems to arise with a nine car class 800, where the available diesel power is slightly down on a HST, however that could be easily remedied by that bloke with the screwdriver.

 

However underpinning this entire power debate is the assumption that an IEP won't have benefited from forty years of technology, since the HST was introduced, to make it much lighter and far more efficient at delivering the available power to the wheel.

 

As for the 110 mph limit when running on diesel surely that is only a theoretical limit, that most likely stems from the original specification specifying all that was thought would be needed at the time.

 

Off the top of my head I can't think of any reason why that limit could not be increased, by the bloke with the screwdriver again, after all these are 125 mph trains.

 

I can only guess that if any power issues have emerged, during testing, then it's just for the case of a nine car class 800 but, depending on who is asked and reading between the lines of various Hitachi statements, I'm willing to bet those class 800s will be class 802s by the time they enter service.

 

Then as electrification is extended those diesels could be derated down again, when appropriate, and indeed, come that happy day in Swansea, I believe the plan is to remove all the diesels altogether from most of the fleet.

Bearing in mind the HST is 40 years old, you'd expect the new rubbish being introduced onto the network to be far superior..........obviously not the case! The DfT are clearly extremely short sighted as if they had an inch of intelligence they would have recommended tilting trains for the route to Cornwall and the ECML (certainly the Northern section Darlington upwards would benefit).

Edited June 22, 2017 by cornish trains jez

[St. Simon]

Bearing in mind the HST is 40 years old, you'd expect the new rubbish being introduced onto the network to be far superior..........obviously not the case! The DfT are clearly extremely short sighted as if they had an inch of intelligence they would have recommended tilting trains for the route to Cornwall and the ECML (certainly the Northern section Darlington upwards would benefit).

 

Having seen very detailed specs on the 80x units as part of my work, they are overall superior than the HST; better accelerating, power operated doors, more capacity, better signalling systems, automatic selective door operation, better passenger information systems, more tables by the looks of it, a better quality interior (as in build quality), the 802's will have better engines for coping with Cornwall. Okay, there may be some power issues when running on diesel, but we don't certainly know until they enter service.

 

Frankly, I can't wait to get rid of the HST, they are drafty, noisy, the doors don't fit, the drops lights are broken, it seems to me that every set has at least on wheel flat, I've been on more than one HST has had one of the power cars shut off. I have no doubt that when they were introduced they were the bees knees, but they are old, we need to move on, which is what's happened.

 

As for tilting trains in Cornwall, I've spoken to many railway professionals on the subject, and it's a non-starter, the severity of the curves and the speed restrictions would mean that fitting a tilt system would add colossal cost and might save, 30 second probably. The ECML doesn't have the same curvy nature as the WCML, so I suspect tilt would add little benefit here as well.

 

Simon

[Zomboid]

Frankly, I can't wait to get rid of the HST, they are drafty, noisy, the doors don't fit, the drops lights are broken, it seems to me that every set has at least on wheel flat, I've been on more than one HST has had one of the power cars shut off. I have no doubt that when they were introduced they were the bees knees, but they are old, we need to move on, which is what's happened.

As a daily commuter on GWR HSTs, I don't recognise that at all. Which route do you suffer on?

[Captain Kernow]

Frankly, I can't wait to get rid of the HST

I think they said that about the Westerns, Kings and Castles too, Simon 

[Captain Kernow]

There was a brief segment in BBC Spotlight South West with a GW manager saying that there was more leg room and more tables as that was what people wanted. Whether that is just for the GW 'purchased' units remains to be seen. I still hope they have a better ambience than Voyagers...

I was lucky enough to have a guided tour around the Hitachi IEP Depot at Stoke Gifford, Bristol a couple of weeks ago, courtesy of a visiting professional association, of which a friend of mine is a member and I was his guest.

 

We were permitted unrestricted photography, provided it was for personal use. I do consider many RMWebbers my personal friends, but posting photos of the visit might be stretching the concept of 'personal' a bit too far.

 

We did get to go in one of the 800s that was on the depot. There were 3 or 4 sets there, all 5 car ones, and all in the Hitachi grey livery with 'birds' on the side of the cab fronts.

 

One thing the guide did say was that these units have the same leg room in the 1st as in the Standard. I'm not sure if that's a good thing for Standard class ticket holders or a bad thing for 1st class travellers, who are used to the HSTs.

 

One thing I will venture to say, however, was that the interior ambience of both 1st and Standard (which seemed identical apart from the slightly wider 1st class seats, which were 2+1 formation as opposed to the 2+2 formation in the Standard) was about as inviting as a doctor's waiting room. I'm hoping that the seating on these is some kind of 'Hitachi sample seating' and that the GWR interiors, when fitted, will be a little more comfortable and decorative.

[jim.snowdon]

 

One thing the guide did say was that these units have the same leg room in the 1st as in the Standard. I'm not sure if that's a good thing for Standard class ticket holders or a bad thing for 1st class travellers, who are used to the HSTs.

 

One thing I will venture to say, however, was that the interior ambience of both 1st and Standard (which seemed identical apart from the slightly wider 1st class seats, which were 2+1 formation as opposed to the 2+2 formation in the Standard) was about as inviting as a doctor's waiting room. I'm hoping that the seating on these is some kind of 'Hitachi sample seating' and that the GWR interiors, when fitted, will be a little more comfortable and decorative.

I'm sure First GW will find a way to get more sardines (sorry - people) into the standard class carriages. It has been common practice for some time for carriage seating to be mounted on longitudinal rails in tha car body structure so that they can be set at any pitch, as against old-fashioned practice where everything was secured to discrete holes in the body structure/floor.

 

Jim

[David41283]

On a completely trivial note, one thing that does stick out a bit (IMHO) is that the 800's are so obviously "vinyled". You can see the light grey base coat around the doors, handrails and other gaps where the vinyls don't cover. At first glance the 802's which have been built for GWR appear to have been built dark green from the factory so don't have the unsightly edges.

[St. Simon]

As a daily commuter on GWR HSTs, I don't recognise that at all. Which route do you suffer on?

 

I travel Reading to Swindon and back 2 days a week during term times, to be fair, the passenger saloon is actually okay, apart from when the vestibule doors get stuck open (very often in my experience). I usually get stuck outside on the vestibule in at least one direction, and that will be fair more pleasant on an IEP.

 

Another thing with the HSTs, which is annoyance if I look it as a railway work who wants to the trains to keep time, is that some people are too stupid to either work out how to open the doors from the inside or are too stupid to close behind them, which can increase what would otherwise be a 30 second stop to a 3 or 4 minute stop (something I see everyday at Tilehurst on the 07:40). Thankfully, these delay causes will be removed when the IEPs come in!

 

Simon

[jjb1970]

There are some people for whom the following are constants in life:

 

New trains are never as good as the old ones which everybody so loves (apart from when they were new and hated for replacing even older trains)

 

Anything intended to make the world safer or cleaner will result in the end of civilisation, the sky will fall in and it’s just elf’n safety gone mad

 

Train fares are too expensive

 

The younger generation are just not as clever, hard working or as good as in our day

 

Why-oh-why can’t the government wave a magic wand to conjure up limitless new trains to everywhere in the world on millions of miles of gleaming new track, how hard can it be? (personally, it might be good if some politicians learn how seats on trains work first, walk before you run and all that)

 

The railways were far more user focused and efficient when class 25’s hauled half a mk.1 brake composite restaurant to somewhere nobody has ever heard of twice a day, the service was destroyed when the service was reduced to an hourly service using those ghastly super sprinter things

 

Tin foil hats aren’t what they used to be

 

    

[Richard E]

I was looking at doors on both HST and 225 recently. Granted this is with VTEC rather than GWR.

 

I think that my revelations echo those posted on here.

 

HST

1. People don't know how to open the doors from inside. VTEC now mobilise their station staff at Peterborough to open the doors from the outside, and close them behind them in order to speed up the station stop

2. The droplights are often left open or slide open of their own accord due to the vibration. They can also be very difficult to open in some cases being almost jammed shut

3. There is a 4" x 2" gap at the bottom of each door on the hinge side through which one can watch the trackbed whizzing past

4. The automatic vestibule doors don't always work

5. As a result they can be noisy and draughty. Earlier in the week the carriage on the HST I was on was cold except in the tunnels when it warmed up considerably and that was down to how draughty it was

 

225

1. Door frames plastered in silicone sealant around the edges

2. Gaps appearing at the coach end side of the door

3. Doors single glazed

4. Air con creates a surprising amount of noise and vibration

5. Double glazing units failing and are not being replaced

6. Vestibule doors not working

7. Not as draughty as an HST but still get some draughts from odd places

 

Both sets of stock are showing their age, a lot is down to maintenance or the lack of it depending on how you wish to view matters. As for the seating it is a bit like a curates egg, good in parts. the refurbished seats are firmer (but beginning to sag already) and more comfortable. This morning I couldn't plug my laptop in as the seat in front of me was blocking access to the powerpoint! Legroom is very poor and I'm sure it has got worse over the last 10 years. The only bright point is the hired in EMT HST which still has the original HST seats in it - comfortable, wider than the 225 seats VTEC have fitted and because they are low backed they make the carriage feel a lot brighter and airier.

 

Routinely the VTEC sets come off depot with the windows filthy on the outside and coated in hair gel on the inside where people have rested their heads against the windows. All they seem to do nowadays is hoover the floor (sparingly it seems) empty the bins and refill the water tanks. I have known a set that was off depot about an hour before I boarded it to have the waste tanks full and smelling to high heaven. They don't seem to know what carriage washers are either.

 

Coming back on to the Class 800 subject I see that there are at least two dark green vinyled sets in Doncaster as well as two or three grey sets. I don't think that the interior will change from that fitted in the sets that are on test when looking at the artists impressions that are floating around on the web. I'll not get to travel on the 800 on my commute as that will finish in December. Perhaps I'll have to take a trip or two just to see what the are like.

[Zomboid]

I travel Reading to Swindon and back 2 days a week during term times, to be fair, the passenger saloon is actually okay, apart from when the vestibule doors get stuck open (very often in my experience). I usually get stuck outside on the vestibule in at least one direction, and that will be fair more pleasant on an IEP.

 

Another thing with the HSTs, which is annoyance if I look it as a railway work who wants to the trains to keep time, is that some people are too stupid to either work out how to open the doors from the inside or are too stupid to close behind them, which can increase what would otherwise be a 30 second stop to a 3 or 4 minute stop (something I see everyday at Tilehurst on the 07:40). Thankfully, these delay causes will be removed when the IEPs come in!

 

Simon

IEPs should have more seats at least. I do Reading - Paddington daily, which means I can ensure I catch a train with seats (only had to stand once, when I was in a hurry and couldn't wait for an emptier one). Vestibule doors are almost always working, and only once have I had a train running on one power car. I did suffer failed AC on Wednesday (obviously!), but other than that the trains I've caught have been flawless as far as the passenger experience goes.

 

The doors are annoying though, and on electric power at least an IEP will probably be an upgrade in almost every way, once they've got the expected early gremlins sorted out.

[Gerald Henriksen]

Bearing in mind the HST is 40 years old, you'd expect the new rubbish being introduced onto the network to be far superior..........obviously not the case! The DfT are clearly extremely short sighted as if they had an inch of intelligence they would have recommended tilting trains for the route to Cornwall and the ECML (certainly the Northern section Darlington upwards would benefit).

 

I believe the Cornwall issue has been dealt with on RMweb in the past - essentially tilt gains you nothing because the speeds can't be increased even with it.

 

But it is also worth considering that a lot of people don't like the tilting trains due to the decrease in interior space required when building to the tilt profile, so building a train with the compromises for tilt - there is also extra complexity and maintenance - for limited benefit would actually be short sighted.

[Zomboid]

To accelerate trains to Cornwall, you'd probably get better returns upgrading the B&H and line to Exeter to 125 or even 140.

 

The same would apply to the ECML. Hatfield to Darlington at 140 (where possible) would probably buy you more than tilt.

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst that may be the theory, experience of travelling on GWR HSTs on several Freedom of the South West Rovers is that anything goes. I've certainly done Chippenham - Penzance (via BTM) and back to Taunton (train was then B&H to Paddington) on a high density mini-buffet set. Without taking notice of actual set consists the impression on all routes is of very few tables on HST stock. Maybe I just get unlucky!

 

There are definitely sets with a TF converted to a compo, and a mini-buffet in the adjacent TSO, working regularly on the West of England route (or I keep getting the same set irrespective of the day of the week).  As far as I can see the only sets properly kept in specific diagrams are those on trains offering Pullman catering - on both the West of England and Swansea routes.

[Coryton]

There are definitely sets with a TF converted to a compo, and a mini-buffet in the adjacent TSO, working regularly on the West of England route (or I keep getting the same set irrespective of the day of the week).  As far as I can see the only sets properly kept in specific diagrams are those on trains offering Pullman catering - on both the West of England and Swansea routes.

 

So do they really have 'low density' sets with more than a token few (very small) tables per coach?

[Zomboid]

I believe so. There are definitely more than one type of coach C, one with entirely airline seats, another with a few tables.

[Captain Kernow]

Coming back on to the Class 800 subject I see that there are at least two dark green vinyled sets in Doncaster as well as two or three grey sets. I don't think that the interior will change from that fitted in the sets that are on test when looking at the artists impressions that are floating around on the web

Oh dear, then.

[Coryton]

I believe so. There are definitely more than one type of coach C, one with entirely airline seats, another with a few tables.

 

Good grief - there are coaches without any tables?

[wombatofludham]

With regard to the discussion on the performance of the two five car units GWR dangled in front of the Devonians and Kernowyon like a Georgian Tantalus in front of an alcoholic butler, are they the "normal spec" diesel output rather than the "cranked to the max" versions GWR ordered themselves for the WoE services?  I'm a bit confused because presumably any running time variation between the special and the current HST timings over the hills will be resolved by the beefier engines in the new trains, or were the two special units "uprated" to the West of England spec to allow some indication as to how the actual fleet will perform?

 

Given in the discussion earlier suggested the trains seemed to do reasonably well, if they are to the lower output of the main fleet presumably the beefier engine spec for the West of England fleet ought to give a bit more reassurance that they will cope with the timetable under loaded conditions?

[Reorte]

There are some people for whom the following are constants in life:

 

New trains are never as good as the old ones which everybody so loves (apart from when they were new and hated for replacing even older trains)

 

Anything intended to make the world safer or cleaner will result in the end of civilisation, the sky will fall in and it’s just elf’n safety gone mad

 

Train fares are too expensive

 

...

And there are some people who think every new thing is great just because it's new, how finally they've got the faster one they need (just like they said when they got the last new faster thing) etc.

[Coryton]

Given in the discussion earlier suggested the trains seemed to do reasonably well, if they are to the lower output of the main fleet presumably the beefier engine spec for the West of England fleet ought to give a bit more reassurance that they will cope with the timetable under loaded conditions?

 

Do we know that these weren't loaded with sandbags?

[D854_Tiger]

With regard to the discussion on the performance of the two five car units GWR dangled in front of the Devonians and Kernowyon like a Georgian Tantalus in front of an alcoholic butler, are they the "normal spec" diesel output rather than the "cranked to the max" versions GWR ordered themselves for the WoE services?  I'm a bit confused because presumably any running time variation between the special and the current HST timings over the hills will be resolved by the beefier engines in the new trains, or were the two special units "uprated" to the West of England spec to allow some indication as to how the actual fleet will perform?

 

Given in the discussion earlier suggested the trains seemed to do reasonably well, if they are to the lower output of the main fleet presumably the beefier engine spec for the West of England fleet ought to give a bit more reassurance that they will cope with the timetable under loaded conditions?

 

The five car class 800 has virtually the same power per car, when running on diesel, as a HST and this train was two five car sets.

 

The class 802s will have much more power, as much as 110 bhp more per car (depending on configuration) than a HST, I reckon we should see some sparkling performances from them through Devon and Cornwall with potential for much reduction in schedules.

 

It's notable that shorter HST formations are also planned for Cornwall probably so they can keep up with the IEPs, in  fact  it will be overkill but we guess the HSTs will be covering services with more stops so will need it.

 

The only IEP that would seem (on paper) to be lacking on diesel power compared to the HST is the class 800 in nine car formation but without knowing which routes they are planning to use them on it's difficult to know whether or not that will be an issue, most likely that perceived lack of power will be put to the test between Cardiff and Swansea but blimey that's hardly a race track as it is.

 

I'm guessing though, on either of the Cotswold routes will all those stops, they might be a bit slower but it's worth remembering not all the trains currently, on either of those routes, are actually HSTs. Class 150 and class 166 operating quite a few services so we doubt the punters will be complaining too much  as service frequencies are to be doubled on both routes to London and all IEP.

 

Plus whatever time may be lost coming over, say Sapperton, will be more than made up for once the train is running under the wires.

 

Mind you all this talk of power is nothing compared to the extra station dwell times with HSTs and I'm guessing a HST on the Hereford run must be a bit of a nightmare for the train manger with all those slam doors, short platforms and stop after stop.

[D854_Tiger]

And there are some people who think every new thing is great just because it's new, how finally they've got the faster one they need (just like they said when they got the last new faster thing) etc.

 

The mk3 coach was a world beater, in my opinion, and has never really been bettered but let's not forget what horrors they produced with that same basic design once they decided to adopt it for for units.

 

Then when new meant a class 31 and six coaches was replaced with a two car class 156 on the Brum - Norwich run, new was truly awful.

 

At least today's new trains do not derogate service quality to anything like that kind of extent, indeed, I rather like this new generation of train, even including those Voyagers (OK not so new now).

 

Had one tilting at 125 mph between Euston and Chester and the performance, ride and all round ambience was stunning, the only thing that let that design down really was the rather short formations they were delivered in but that was not the fault of the train.

 

I have to say sprinterisation was a horrible period, the only time it made me consider what on earth are they doing to my railway and even reconsider rail travel as an option. It was only the arrival of the class 158 that improved matters but even then that required generosity of thinking when so many two car sets kept tuning up.

 

It was the arrival of class 168 Turbostars on Chiltern when I finally thought maybe units are not so bad after all.