Class 800 - Updates

[Ron Ron Ron]

....Soon, the whole country will be infested with this garbage from a company who used to make video recorders! He he!! ....

 

 

Why such a vitriolic tone?

How do you know these trains will be "garbage"?

Hitachi are a large scale train manufacturer and have a long history in train production. They've also been involved in the production of almost all of Japan's high speed Shinkansen train classes, which are regarded as some of the finest trains in the world.

Japanese engineering is generally highly regarded for build quality and reliability, although that in itself is no guarantee that teething problems and minor design issues won't arise. Particularly as most of the bits and pieces that are going into these IET's are sourced and manufactured by UK and mainland European subcontractors.

 

The Mk3 is regarded by many as BR's finest hour in passenger vehicle design, but the world has moved on in technological and production engineering terms.

If anyone set out today to make a new "copy" of the Mk3, it would almost certainly be a better rail vehicle, not to mention, much safer in crash worthiness terms.

Crap seating and internal layout, do not make a crap train.

 

The IET diesel power issue is nothing but a sideshow, being dragged up by critics of the IEP (and the trains that have resulted from it) and by those looking for any excuse to find fault.

As has been stated over and over and over again, the diesel power requirements were set deliberately lower than they might have been, as the anticipation at the time of specifying the change to underfloor engines, was that electrification would have been substantially ready by now and would have extended over a much larger part of the network than is likely to be the case for the next few years.

It's the delays and cost over-runs of the electrification programme that have resulted in where we are today.

That's left a problem that is having to be addressed by the IEP and Hitachi.

[Coryton]

Why such a vitriolic tone?

How do you know these trains will be "garbage"?

Hitachi are a large scale train manufacturer and have a long history in train production. They've also been involved in the production of almost all of Japan's high speed Shinkansen train classes, which are regarded as some of the finest trains in the world.

Japanese engineering is generally highly regarded for build quality and reliability, although that in itself is no guarantee that teething problems and minor design issues won't arise. Particularly as most of the bits and pieces that are going into these IET's are sourced and manufactured by UK and mainland European subcontractors.

 

 

I seem to recall that the replacement of Deltics with HSTs wasn't universally appreciated at the time - HST's were boring unit trains rather than carriages pulled by a proper engine, the seats didn't line up with the windows, etc. etc.

 

I thought at the time that people would probably miss HSTs when they were gone but I couldn't have imagined how long they would last and how much the rolling stock scene would have changed by then.

 

I suspect that when the 800's reach the end of their life, what replaces them won't be all that different because once you have a multiple unit with distributed (ac motored) traction and just about everything underfloor/on the roof I don't know where else you go.

 

But of course that might just be my lack of imagination. Perhaps in another 40 years we'll be marvelling at the short-sightedness of stringing up gantries and overhead wires everywhere when we have trains powered by miniature fusion reactors, and as they drive themselves we don't need cabs any more.

 

Or travel will have become so rare that trains become hopelessly uneconomic.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Coryton

[37114]

I suspect that when the 800's reach the end of their life, what replaces them won't be all that different because once you have a multiple unit with distributed (ac motored) traction and just about everything underfloor/on the roof I don't know where else you go.

 

But of course that might just be my lack of imagination. Perhaps in another 40 years we'll be marvelling at the short-sightedness of stringing up gantries and overhead wires everywhere when we have trains powered by miniature fusion reactors, and as they drive themselves we don't need cabs any more.

 

Or travel will have become so rare that trains become hopelessly uneconomic.

I agree with your vision of the future to be honest. Battery technology will advance to the point that you won't need overheads. Driverless trains already exist and the way business is changing will place less reliance on travel as we use more digital comms. I work for an international business and Tele presence rooms are in place at our global offices. The rooms have the same desks in each office so you genuinely feel like you are sat in the same room. Edited June 16, 2017 by 37114

[jjb1970]

Battery technology is advancing rapidly and huge sums are being poured into battery development with a lot of it going into batteries which can be re-charged very quickly. I really think it is entirely possible that we could see battery powered trains become a viable alternative to diesels or wiring in the not too distant future.

[jjb1970]

Why such a vitriolic tone?

How do you know these trains will be "garbage"?

Hitachi are a large scale train manufacturer and have a long history in train production. They've also been involved in the production of almost all of Japan's high speed Shinkansen train classes, which are regarded as some of the finest trains in the world.

Japanese engineering is generally highly regarded for build quality and reliability, although that in itself is no guarantee that teething problems and minor design issues won't arise.

 

 

 

+1. I find there is a rather unpleasant under current to a lot of the comments I hear from rail enthusiasts about Hitachi and Japanese engineering.

[Coryton]

+1. I find there is a rather unpleasant under current to a lot of the comments I hear from rail enthusiasts about Hitachi and Japanese engineering.

 

Indeed, though it does rankle a bit that it's one way - the Japanese will happily sells trains to the world (and why not?) but so far as I know they won't buy trains from other countries.

[Coryton]

Battery technology is advancing rapidly and huge sums are being poured into battery development with a lot of it going into batteries which can be re-charged very quickly. I really think it is entirely possible that we could see battery powered trains become a viable alternative to diesels or wiring in the not too distant future.

 

I find it hard to imagine batteries good enough to power a high speed long distance train. Maybe that's just my lack of imagination showing but I'm not sure the physics works out.

 

However I can certainly see there might be sensible alternatives to electrification such as fuel cells. Or maybe intermittent electrification with batteries (or flywheels?) in the gaps? Maybe some kind of inductive charging instead of overhead wires?

 

As for driverless trains, if we give the 800's a 40 year life, then who knows? Driverless National Rail trains are clearly a very different thing to the DLR, but driverless cars seem to be doing pretty well so in 40 years I can see it being reality with trains in 40 years.

 

Assuming we still want to travel anyway, though my experience with video-conferencing with dedicated equipment has been that it's good but not that good, and in any case there is the problem that you can have the meeting itself via a video-link but you miss the social aspect of meeting people and the informal conversation that can often be more important than the formal side of a meeting itself.

 

And plenty of travel isn't business travel anyway - will grandparents be happy to video-conference rather than visit grandkids, or families virtually visit a zoo rather than actually going there?

[billbedford]

Indeed, though it does rankle a bit that it's one way - the Japanese will happily sells trains to the world (and why not?) but so far as I know they won't buy trains from other countries.

 

 

Reminds me of another off-shore island in times past.....

[jjb1970]

There is a lot of interest in battery powered ships. Scandlines converted some large Ro-Pax to diesel electric hybrid configuration a few years ago, at the time they had the worlds biggest lithium ion battery pack, I signed some of the approvals. Designers are now looking at going to the next step, a fully battery ship, this is in relation to large sea going ships, not riverine craft. Mind you, submarines have used batteries for over a century and some surface vessels have used battery for creeping.

[jamie92208]

Indeed, though it does rankle a bit that it's one way - the Japanese will happily sells trains to the world (and why not?) but so far as I know they won't buy trains from other countries.

 

Unfortunately the spec was written by civil servants and as Uncle Roger in Modern Railways kept pointing out, some of them thought that they could re write the laws of physics and the chickens have now come home to roost.  Hitachi have built the train that was specified but they have got caught with the negative reaction to the fact that the trains have turned out to be underpowered for the circumstances in which they are having to operate and with what are reported to be poorly specified interiors.  It will be very interesting to see how the GWR and Hull Trains specced IEP's perform.

 

Jamie

[Coryton]

Reminds me of another off-shore island in times past.....

 

You might think that....I couldn't possibly comment...

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately the spec was written by civil servants and as Uncle Roger in Modern Railways kept pointing out, some of them thought that they could re write the laws of physics and the chickens have now come home to roost. Hitachi have built the train that was specified but they have got caught with the negative reaction to the fact that the trains have turned out to be underpowered for the circumstances in which they are having to operate and with what are reported to be poorly specified interiors. It will be very interesting to see how the GWR and Hull Trains specced IEP's perform.

 

Jamie

Hitachi designed and built the train to DfT's specification, as you infer, if that specification is found wanting then it isn't the fault of Hitachi. Even in fairness to DfT (not an organization I hold in high regard) it probably wasn't entirely unreasonable to expect the electrification program to have been managed and executed a lot more effectively than turned out to be the case.

In terms of Japan and trade, what they do is what most countries want, i.e. freedom to export while keeping things at home domestic. They're not the only country to do that and it is pretty much what many politicians and most unions in most countries want.

Edited June 17, 2017 by jjb1970

[Hilux5972]

I suspect that when the 800's reach the end of their life.....

Can we get them into regular service first before we talk about there replacements?

[D854_Tiger]

Unfortunately the spec was written by civil servants and as Uncle Roger in Modern Railways kept pointing out, some of them thought that they could re write the laws of physics and the chickens have now come home to roost.  Hitachi have built the train that was specified but they have got caught with the negative reaction to the fact that the trains have turned out to be underpowered for the circumstances in which they are having to operate and with what are reported to be poorly specified interiors.  It will be very interesting to see how the GWR and Hull Trains specced IEP's perform.

 

Jamie

 

 

One fairly simple way to boost the available power might be to build some of the trailer cars as power cars. Currently a five car IEP is specified with two trailers and a nine car with four.

 

A bit messy and hardly elegant but that wouldn't be a first and they might have to switch some of those additional motors off under the wires.

[Coryton]

Can we get them into regular service first before we talk about there replacements?

 

Where's the fun in that?

[D854_Tiger]

A 2+8 HST has 4500 hp to play with - that's 450 hp per car.

 

A 5 car class 802 will have 2820 hp and a 9 car 4700 hp - that's at worst 520 hp and best 564 hp per car.

 

A 5 car class 800 will have 2250 hp and a 9 car 3750 hp - that's at worst 416 hp and best 450 hp per car.

 

However both the class 800 and the class 802 have identical diesels it's just that the class 802 diesels will be configured to deliver an extra 200 hp. 

 

Thus we see that a class 802 will have plenty of power over a HST and the class 800 could be configured by one bloke with a screwdriver (or a software change as it's known nowadays) to easily become a class 802.

 

The only issue with power seems to arise with a nine car class 800, where the available diesel power is slightly down on a HST, however that could be easily remedied by that bloke with the screwdriver.

 

However underpinning this entire power debate is the assumption that an IEP won't have benefited from forty years of technology, since the HST was introduced, to make it much lighter and far more efficient at delivering the available power to the wheel.

 

As for the 110 mph limit when running on diesel surely that is only a theoretical limit, that most likely stems from the original specification specifying all that was thought would be needed at the time.

 

Off the top of my head I can't think of any reason why that limit could not be increased, by the bloke with the screwdriver again, after all these are 125 mph trains.

 

I can only guess that if any power issues have emerged, during testing, then it's just for the case of a nine car class 800 but, depending on who is asked and reading between the lines of various Hitachi statements, I'm willing to bet those class 800s will be class 802s by the time they enter service.

 

Then as electrification is extended those diesels could be derated down again, when appropriate, and indeed, come that happy day in Swansea, I believe the plan is to remove all the diesels altogether from most of the fleet.

[Titan]

One fairly simple way to boost the available power might be to build some of the trailer cars as power cars. Currently a five car IEP is specified with two trailers and a nine car with four.

 

A bit messy and hardly elegant but that wouldn't be a first and they might have to switch some of those additional motors off under the wires.

 

Do remember that the driving trailers have pantographs, low floors and 25kv transformers etc. underneath them, so the 5 cars cannot have any more diesel engines than they already have.

[SouthernMafia]

Southampton Docks this morning - first Class 802 arrives in the UK.

 

 

[Christopher125]

Well, from what I've recently heard, personally from a very reliable source,

Not only are they not designed for 125 operation on diesel, they're not actually up it. "We've not had 125 out of them yet, max 121 /123 descending Stoke bank."

If the engines are operating at the output specified for 100mph operation that should hardly come as a surprise.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Christopher125

[D854_Tiger]

One further point on 110 mph running, typically (depending upon the number of stops) the time penalty for Exeter to Paddington, routed via Bristol instead of via Newbury, can be as little as 20 minutes, thanks to the 125 mph running that is possible east of Bristol

 

The new IEP timetable will be offering four trains per hour from London to Bristol, two of them limited stop not serving Swindon, or Didcot, as is the case currently, couple that with the benefits of electrification and we see how that twenty minute time penalty comes down to just five.

 

It's not difficult to imagine then a scenario where going via Bristol is as fast, if not faster, than going via Newbury, 

 

We can guess, with the introduction of the new IEP timetable, there will be far more services in total between London and Devon, couple that with need to still serve Weston Super Mare, without the benefit of wires, what's the betting a significant proportion of those extra trains to Devon will be routed via Bristol,.to take advantage of the electrification, rather than via Newbury.

[tetsudofan]

Indeed, though it does rankle a bit that it's one way - the Japanese will happily sells trains to the world (and why not?) but so far as I know they won't buy trains from other countries.

 

Ah, but they did back in 1891 and it was from us:

 

 

 

Took the original picture at a Technical University just outside Tokyo where it was working on a short running line using compressed air. Painting was done for me by Jonathan Clay based on my original picture.

 

Enough history, now back to the present.

 

Keith

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

A 2+8 HST has 4500 hp to play with - that's 450 hp per car.

 

A 5 car class 802 will have 2820 hp and a 9 car 4700 hp - that's at worst 520 hp and best 564 hp per car.

 

A 5 car class 800 will have 2250 hp and a 9 car 3750 hp - that's at worst 416 hp and best 450 hp per car.

 

 

 

There's something that you've missed out.

A great many of the services on the GWML will be run by pairs of 5-car 800's and 802's.

 

Using your figures...

A 10 car (2 x 5) class 800 will have 4500 hp 

A 10 car (2 x 5) class 802 will have 5640 hp

equalling the 9 car trains in terms of hp.

 

Most importantly (totally trumping hp or top speed IMHO) is the increased passenger capacity the IET's bring over the HST's they'll be replacing.

They will definitely beat the HST's on electric power and if they can match or beat the HST timetable on diesel, then this additional efficiency will be some achievement.

 

 

.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[Rob F]

In reality, it is not hp per vehicle that matters but hp per tonne. I don't know the weights of an 8 coach HST or any of the Class 80x variants but that is the comparison that needs to be made.

 

Rob

[Geoff Endacott]

I like the way each set carries two names, Brunel/Gooch, Victoria/Elizabeth.

 

I think that an ideal theme for the rest of them would be the comedy class. Morecambe & Wise, Laurel & Hardy, French & Saunders...

 

Geoff Endacott

[4630]

First trip to Penzance and return appears to be scheduled now for 22nd June;

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K07052/2017/06/22/advanced

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K07053/2017/06/22/advanced