Craftsman models

[TheWeatheringMan]

Right an update .

 

I have had a full refund through PAYPAL , I quote

 

" Refund as requested due to non-supply by new owner of business. All monies received up to 1st January held in separate account for such situation."

 

This was after I emailed Ian Hayman as he was shown as the payee on my paypal order . I would recommend anybody who has payed through paypal after the first of Jan check the details of their order and proceed as you see fit.

 

This is my own personal opinion ( of which I am entitled ) but I would warn people not to use this company as of now , yes maybe I dont know all the details and there may be other issues with the company but at the end of the day the company is still trading and taking money and it would seem people are getting their fingers burnt.

Hi,

 

Although this will only be partly relevent to the situation discussed in this thread I do think it is important.

I have dealt with Craftsman Models for many years under its previouse owners - indeed my most recent order is still sitting in my workshop as yet unstarted on - and if there is now a problem or the range might dissapear then i'm very glad i've got those dmu conversion kits in stock.

 

During a conversation with Darrel or Ian at CM when placing my order they told me that a couple of items would be delayed a few weeks due to needing to order in more etching brass.

I had always had the impression that the etchings were done in house in small batches and that sometimes a kit would go out of stock for a while until sufficient brass needed to be ordered to meet the suppliers minimum.

A perfectly acceptable situation and my kits were all delivered in the stated timescale.

I must add that the owners of CM always provided exemplary service and on occasion went to some trouble to supply castings.

The above does of course apply to the previous owners.

 

Now as it seems that CM has changed hands we need to consider several factors prior to making sweeping statements that might do the new owner a lot of harm.

 

Taking over such a range will of course involve a lot of work getting it up and running again.

The previous owners may have run the stock down in preparation for sale as a safeguard should the buisiness not sell as a going concern.

If the previous is correct then the new owner will need to address the issue.

It is possible that the new owner will need to establish suppliers of raw materials prior to restocking the range - things like new accounts and meeting minimum orders will effect this.

The new owner may be running the operation as a sideline and may have missjudged the ammount of work involved - this he will hopefully overcome given time and experience.

 

Yes I agree totally that it is wrong to advertise and take money for items not in stock and yes he should make an announcement so customers know the position during the changeover - if he needs time to get up and running again we will all accept this as it wont be the first time an undertaking has transfered and required time to be sorted out.

Comunication with customers will go a very long way.

 

What we dont need is sweeping statements that could do a great deal of harm to the undertaking in what will be a formative period for the new owner.

 

To the new owner I would say this :

 

If you see this thread then please let your potential customers know whats going on.

You have inherited a well liked range with a proud heritage in Craftsman Models - dont let it slip.

We will all understand if you need a bit of time BUT LET US KNOW.

The range has a strong following and you can build on that.

Over to you Mr Jones.

 

Regards All.

[Derekstuart]

The statement was taken in good faith from Mr C K, whom I have no reason to doubt.

 

My statement isn't specifically about CM and would apply equally to ANY AND ALL suppliers.

If there is a delay then you need to communicate that with customers- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?
If there is going to be a delay in despatch of the item- such as being made to special order- then if a supplier makes this clear (as with Ultrascale for example) then the customer has chosen this and accepts it as perfectly reasonable- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

If there is a substantial delay in delivering an item, that the customer has NOT been made aware of (and given an opportunity to amend or cancel order) then that is not acceptable- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

If there is a delay between retailer and ultimate manufacturer then this is not the problem of the customer- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?


Most people in my experience DO accept delays (I do and have done), but the response from them is always more favourable when you communicate the problem in a straight forward way.
 

You don't know the whole story, either from the customers perspective or from the suppliers, so it is grossly wrong that you make such statements.

 

 

I would politely suggest you keep your comments to yourself and let's hope that whatever the problems are can be resolved soon.

 

 

PGC

 

Quite frankly it doesn't matter what the issue is. It is not reasonable to take money from someone on a vague promise of "when we receive the stock". UNLESS that is made clear at the time of sale, as many companies do.

 

Look at companies such as Ultrascale- you can wait SIX MONTHS (or if you're smart you can get them next day from Alan Gibson!) but that is something that they make perfectly clear and they seem to stick to their stated deadlines. A company such as Craftsman saying "when we get the stock" isn't reasonable.

 

If I were the owner of CM I think I'd have at least put a statement on here or even their website.

[Derekstuart]

I'm sorry to disagree with you TWM,

 

If there is any discredit brought upon CM it is by the new owner him/her/themself.

 

People here are making statements about their own personal experiences with this company -OR- commenting upon the general position of this and other similar businesses in a factual and objective manner.

 

I run a company and I am well aware that my actions- or inactions- will be commented upon, and as long as it is factual then I have to accept it is legitimate criticism if I fail on something.

 

No one here is making spurious or sweeping statements that I can see. But specific and justifiable criticisms of a supplier that is not acting in a professional manner. There can be NO excuse for accepting payments if you cannot deliver and then not making a refund (it appears that paypal refunded Mr CK?). This is just not acceptable under ANY circumstances.

 

It may well be that the new owners are having issues in setting everything up, or they may have personal issues affecting their lives that are none of our business. In that case, the website should reflect that with a basic "we are not currently open for business, please leave your email address if you wish to be contacted when we re-start."

I find it staggering that you would seek to excuse their behaviour, I really do.

 

That you dealt with the old CM is of little relevance in this case as the new owner has bought a name only. (perhaps some stock and plans too). Odd that someone would seek to buy a name (its main asset I would think given it has been around for some time) and then allow that main asset to be degraded like this.

 

People can and will accept things going wrong, but people won't accept being messed around like this.

Hi,

Although this will only be partly relevent to the situation discussed in this thread I do think it is important.
I have dealt with Craftsman Models for many years under its previouse owners - indeed my most recent order is still sitting in my workshop as yet unstarted on - and if there is now a problem or the range might dissapear then i'm very glad i've got those dmu conversion kits in stock.

During a conversation with Darrel or Ian at CM when placing my order they told me that a couple of items would be delayed a few weeks due to needing to order in more etching brass.
I had always had the impression that the etchings were done in house in small batches and that sometimes a kit would go out of stock for a while until sufficient brass needed to be ordered to meet the suppliers minimum.
A perfectly acceptable situation and my kits were all delivered in the stated timescale.
I must add that the owners of CM always provided exemplary service and on occasion went to some trouble to supply castings.
The above does of course apply to the previous owners.

Now as it seems that CM has changed hands we need to consider several factors prior to making sweeping statements that might do the new owner a lot of harm.

Taking over such a range will of course involve a lot of work getting it up and running again.
The previous owners may have run the stock down in preparation for sale as a safeguard should the buisiness not sell as a going concern.
If the previous is correct then the new owner will need to address the issue.
It is possible that the new owner will need to establish suppliers of raw materials prior to restocking the range - things like new accounts and meeting minimum orders will effect this.
The new owner may be running the operation as a sideline and may have missjudged the ammount of work involved - this he will hopefully overcome given time and experience.

Yes I agree totally that it is wrong to advertise and take money for items not in stock and yes he should make an announcement so customers know the position during the changeover - if he needs time to get up and running again we will all accept this as it wont be the first time an undertaking has transfered and required time to be sorted out.
Comunication with customers will go a very long way.

What we dont need is sweeping statements that could do a great deal of harm to the undertaking in what will be a formative period for the new owner.

To the new owner I would say this :

If you see this thread then please let your potential customers know whats going on.
You have inherited a well liked range with a proud heritage in Craftsman Models - dont let it slip.
We will all understand if you need a bit of time BUT LET US KNOW.
The range has a strong following and you can build on that.
Over to you Mr Jones.

Regards All.

[TheWeatheringMan]

I'm sorry to disagree with you TWM,

 

If there is any discredit brought upon CM it is by the new owner him/her/themself.

 

People here are making statements about their own personal experiences with this company -OR- commenting upon the general position of this and other similar businesses in a factual and objective manner.

 

I run a company and I am well aware that my actions- or inactions- will be commented upon, and as long as it is factual then I have to accept it is legitimate criticism if I fail on something.

 

No one here is making spurious or sweeping statements that I can see. But specific and justifiable criticisms of a supplier that is not acting in a professional manner. There can be NO excuse for accepting payments if you cannot deliver and then not making a refund (it appears that paypal refunded Mr CK?). This is just not acceptable under ANY circumstances.

 

It may well be that the new owners are having issues in setting everything up, or they may have personal issues affecting their lives that are none of our business. In that case, the website should reflect that with a basic "we are not currently open for business, please leave your email address if you wish to be contacted when we re-start."

 

I find it staggering that you would seek to excuse their behaviour, I really do.

 

That you dealt with the old CM is of little relevance in this case as the new owner has bought a name only. (perhaps some stock and plans too). Odd that someone would seek to buy a name (its main asset I would think given it has been around for some time) and then allow that main asset to be degraded like this.

 

People can and will accept things going wrong, but people won't accept being messed around like this.

I think you should take the time to read my post properly before you press the disagree button and then post something so wrong.

 

Firstly I said outright that what I was about to say would be only partly relevent to the discussion.

Secondly, My commenting on the previous owners was intended to convey that any percieved problems at the moment should not reflect on the previous owners.

 

I very clearly stated later in my post that I did not condone the situation as mentioned by another poster and that the new owner should tell customers what is happening and why.

I also stated very clearly that my opinion was that advertising and taking money should cease if goods could not be supplied - or clearly tell the customer about any possible delay.

 

All of the above was perfectly clear in my post but obviously totally missed by you.

 

I also said that I felt it was wrong for anyone to say avoid this trader in such a sweeping way unless and until something more concrete is known.

As I also very clearly outlined there could easily be a genuine reason for a problem so it is both wrong and very unfair to say something that could damage the traders reputation virtually before he has had time to get on his feet.

 

I was not defending the alleged actions of the new owner as such, simply saying that consideration should be given to possible problems that may have occured before starting to tell all and sundry to avoid the trader.

The damage this might do unjustifiably might be very difficult to put right.

[Horsetan]

.....Odd that someone would seek to buy a name (its main asset I would think given it has been around for some time) and then allow that main asset to be degraded like this.

 

For past examples, see:

 

- Centre Models

- Impetus

- MTK / NNK

- Sharman Wheels

- DMR Models

- Modelex

 

For examples of the "lack of communication" category, see:

 

Coopercraft / Blacksmith / Slaters

 

I'm praying the Martin Finney range doesn't go the same way.....

[Derekstuart]

TWM

 

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine, as are others.

 

You yourself have indicated that you do not approve of their conduct and yet you seek to condemn others for warning people of the same. Very, very strange indeed.

 

It is not OUR fault that these problems have arisen. It is solely down to the owners of CM. That is a fact, is it not?

One person at least has had to claim a refund via paypal and as such is recommending people to heed his warning. This is TOTALLY responsible.

 

You are making very little sense to me. If you believe it's acceptable business practice- well, you know what they say about a fool and his money.

I can see this thread heading for a lock, so unless their are any developments from CM, can I suggest this thread would be better used for helping people to source remaining CM parts?

Howes still have a good selection of some/most lines.

[TheWeatheringMan]

TWM

 

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine, as are others.

 

You yourself have indicated that you do not approve of their conduct and yet you seek to condemn others for warning people of the same. Very, very strange indeed.

 

It is not OUR fault that these problems have arisen. It is solely down to the owners of CM. That is a fact, is it not?

One person at least has had to claim a refund via paypal and as such is recommending people to heed his warning. This is TOTALLY responsible.

 

You are making very little sense to me. If you believe it's acceptable business practice- well, you know what they say about a fool and his money.

 

I can see this thread heading for a lock, so unless their are any developments from CM, can I suggest this thread would be better used for helping people to source remaining CM parts?

 

Howes still have a good selection of some/most lines.

I will make this my last comment here as it hurts to keep banging my head on the wall.

 

What I said was that damaging comments about a trader should not be made until there is more proof that something untoward is happening.

 

Everything else you infer i've said is rubbish.

 

As the saying goes 'there's none so blind as those who wont see'

[Derekstuart]

The comments made here ARE damaging. But they are factual.

 

Why not report this to Mr York and if he believes this not to be the case then I suggest that myself and others will likely be barred.

 

You use the word "untoward" to imply that CM is criminally dodgy, NO ONE has suggested that and it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that anyone has. I think we are talking a case of credibility and competence which is a world away from accusing them of being fraudsters or whatever. All comments here have been factual as far as I can see.

Are you made of straw?
 

I will make this my last comment here as it hurts to keep banging my head on the wall.

What I said was that damaging comments about a trader should not be made until there is more proof that something untoward is happening.

Everything else you infer i've said is rubbish.

As the saying goes 'there's none so blind as those who wont see'

[PGC]

The statement was taken in good faith from Mr C K, whom I have no reason to doubt.

 

My statement isn't specifically about CM and would apply equally to ANY AND ALL suppliers.

 

If there is a delay then you need to communicate that with customers- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

If there is going to be a delay in despatch of the item- such as being made to special order- then if a supplier makes this clear (as with Ultrascale for example) then the customer has chosen this and accepts it as perfectly reasonable- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

 

If there is a substantial delay in delivering an item, that the customer has NOT been made aware of (and given an opportunity to amend or cancel order) then that is not acceptable- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

 

If there is a delay between retailer and ultimate manufacturer then this is not the problem of the customer- DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

 

 

Most people in my experience DO accept delays (I do and have done), but the response from them is always more favourable when you communicate the problem in a straight forward way.

 

 

DerekStuart - I don't disagree with your statements about delays etc., but you seem unable to realise that the new owners have only had the company in their possession for 21 days, so there may well be teething troubles with stock, art work for etchings etc. that we don't know about and they've not had a chance to resolve them or talk to people about them yet.

 

If the new owners are having problems, they may well be thinking "what have we done" and if negative comments continue, it may well be those comments are what tip the decision of the new owners in the way of thinking "let's throw the towel in" in which case we may lose the Craftsman range for ever, and it could possibly be your fault.

 

As I said earlier, I would respectfully suggest you keep you opinions to yourself until we know facts.

 

Question 1 - Are the new owners members of RM Web? The answer can only be Yes or No, that is a fact.

 

Question 2 - If the answer to Q1 is No, has anyone made an effort to ask CM what's happening and provide us with facts rather than supposition?

 

Question 3 - If the answer to Q1 is Yes, do we KNOW that they are aware of this thread and our concerns? (we would like to think they are, but that's assumption, not fact)

 

Phil

[PGC]

The comments made here ARE damaging. But they are factual.

 

Why not report this to Mr York and if he believes this not to be the case then I suggest that myself and others will likely be barred.

 

You use the word "untoward" to imply that CM is criminally dodgy, NO ONE has suggested that and it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that anyone has. I think we are talking a case of credibility and competence which is a world away from accusing them of being fraudsters or whatever. All comments here have been factual as far as I can see.

 

Are you made of straw?

 

 

Reported, as suggested.

[Derekstuart]

We HAVE been discussing facts, pgc. Unless you have evidence that someone is writing un-truths?

It may surprise you to know that my company- that I have set up, sold and now work as MD, has bought out struggling rivals. The first thing we do is to tell customers what has happened, that we cannot perform miracles overnight, but we ALWAYS GIVE PEOPLE A REASON TO HAVE FAITH IN US.

 

As a result, we find that we gain understanding, loyalty and support and often customers will give us help to understand what might have been wrong. That way we build/ keep credibility in the brand. It ISN'T easy to do and you often have people asking all sorts of different questions- but even a "I don't know at the moment, but I hope to shortly" statement usually does the trick.

 

But I never, repeat never, update sales lists and take payments from customers if I am not sure if/when I can fulfill the contract.

 

If you find that sort of approach improper then that is up to you.

 

I am un-comfortable with discussing this sort of thing with you as I believe you and TWM are deliberately trying to inflame this and I will have nothing to do with it any more. If Mr York reads this, then I'd invite him to read the whole thread.

[col_kilgore]

As I am the person making " sweeping " statements I feel I should respond .

 

At the end of the day , I payed for a service , that service to my mind has been very poor , therefore I am perfectly within my rights to express the opinions I have , that is the nature of a public forum.

 

This was the first time I had ordered from this company , which I thought had a good reputation and was well regarded. 

[Mod4]

Please can members refrain from making posts that can be considered by some as being inconsiderate, impolite and potentially inflammatory. This thread will now be locked for consideration by the Admin team in due course.

[Re6/6]

This topic having been locked: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94518-craftsman-models/page-2I would like to know any information that is out there regarding this company.

 

I would very much like to acquire a couple of their kits. Has anybody had any recent experiences of orders received?

 

Just info is all that I need and not postings that would get this thread locked!

 

Thanks chaps.

[stovepipe]

There was a subsequent thread which was still being added to last week. In short no kits are being supplied at present.

[RANGERS]

One or two retailers still have stocks, Caistor Loco and Rural Railways had some still in stock recently.

[Derekstuart]

Howes of Oxford (Kidlington) had some stock when I was there about 2 weeks ago. What was there, I don't know. I think their website is usually pretty up to date for stock availability.

[muddys-blues]

I still have some DMU kits and bits from my now defunct 4mm projects if anybody is interested, genuine reason for disposal, I have gone 7mm because I am bit 'opeless with me eyes now.

 

Please PM if interested

Craig.

[Simon Moore]

From what i can gather from the some of the latest news elsewhere on the forum, the web designer for Craftsman is away for 6 months in china???? This could be the reason nothing is sold. I personally find this hard to believe because surely you would pop a notice on the website so customers know the situation.

I really do hope we see the range return i would like the L&YR class 27 A class kit. Fingers crossed it is either returned by the current owner or the brand is sold to someone else who can start trading with the range once more.

Simon

[BenS]

Hi all,

 

I'm also curious I have recently placed an online order (no previous knowledge of this thread) and have tried email and phoning them to no response. I would like the bits I have ordered and if this means waiting that's fine but I just want to know. At least that way I can either claim for my money back or sit tight and wait.

 

Kind regards

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi Ben,

 

Looking at the thread....

 

You appear to have about a 1 in 50 chance of getting the items.

 

Good Luck!

[John Tomlinson]

I'd refer people to the thread "Craftsman Detailing Kits", in this Smaller Suppliers section.

 

In short, several folk including myself who've ordered from Crafsman in recent months have not received the goods, but if using Paypal have had a refund which comes from the supplier, i.e. not Paypal itself. This does imply that the proprietor of the company is still around, and possibly might at some point restart supplying product. A case perhaps of "fingers crossed, but don't hold your breath!"

 

John.

[highpeakman]

Hi all,

 

I'm also curious I have recently placed an online order (no previous knowledge of this thread) and have tried email and phoning them to no response. I would like the bits I have ordered and if this means waiting that's fine but I just want to know. At least that way I can either claim for my money back or sit tight and wait.

 

Kind regards

It appears from another thread that one person has recently received the products they ordered whereas most others gave up and got refunds. 

Whether this delivery represents an overall response change is anybody's guess so far. Perhaps anyone else who has received their product could let us know?

 

 

I tried to chase the problems down and, after some time, was given the information that the owner indicated to someone that he had been in hospital recently and his web designer had gone to Thailand for five months. If this is correct then I can be sympathetic but I am a little unsure whether this really explains the total lack of response to orders and enquiries for some considerable period of time now. If the owner is back in business then it would seem logical to post some information about what is happening on the web site (which after ten months still shows old and conflicting contact information) and also to respond to any email enquires/chase ups with an explanation of delays (even if just an automatic email response). People can live with delays if they know what is happening but zero reaction does not help.

 

As I have said before, I would really like to see Craftsman products available again and hope that they can get their act together to let everyone know what is happening.

[Kenton]

Can we stick to one topic on the subject please?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97228-craftsman-detailing-kits/page-4&do=findComment&comment=2046035

 

Some of us are watching/subscribing to that one for good news ... that glimmer of hope posted recently.

[Andy Y]

Merged and unlocked once again.