Bachmann Hawksworth Autocoach

[chrisf]

That the loco is black with early totem does not stop the trailer from being unlined maroon.

 

Chris

[David Bigcheeseplant]

6429 was transfered to Banbury on 13/06/59 before that it was in Wales so my guess is that Wren is in maroon, also Wren was in carmine and cream before so I think it would be unlikely to have then gone in to plain carmine before maroon.

 

David

Edited November 12, 2015 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Brian Kirby]

I'd say the Hawk.auto (pictured above) is in plain weathered maroon (IMHO), so i'm with Chris Foren on this one.   BK

[Brian Kirby]

In Great Western Coaches Appendix  Vol 2 by J H Russell there are some full page photos of boths sides of both Thush and Wren in carmine and cream, both before and after names were applied. Interesting both have white horizontal lines on both the three end windows and drivers doors. Thush was built unnamed with the normal trailer seating and was then rebuilt more or less straight away with the new interior, repainted in lined Maroon and lost the white lines on the end windows while the white line on the drivers door went from horizontal to vertical all this in a life of only 13 years.

 

David. 

Not quite Dave, as you say both Thrush and Wren carried on in carmine and cream livery after their respective rebuilds, for how long is uncertain, but Thrush didn't get lined maroon until at least after 1958. It was recorded "at Southall shed in March 1958 in post-1956 plain maroon", with maroon ends (Lewis). Later on Thrush would be lined maroon, but with what colour ends? Weathered shades of crimson and maroon can end up quite close to each other, hence the confusion, like when Hornby released their Thompson suburbans, it was difficult to distinguish which colour was depicted. If you read John Lewis's GW Autocoach books, there is plenty of confusion between the colours.  BK  

[Brian Kirby]

I think the seats are a green leather/plastic/vinyl with a brown fabric down the centre you can see this in black and white in the John Lewis book.

 

I still think all the bus seat type trailers were in red, The seats in the preserved Chaffinch should have the bus type seating and no windows in the end bulkhead, I am pretty sure one of the preserved trailers on the South Devon Railway has the bus style seats that may be original. some had all the interiors ripped out and turned into observation cars when used by the Paignton Steam Railway in the 1970s  

Yes, i'd go along with the green, but on the bus seats fitted in the 1954 W235W to W244W. As i mentioned before, my copy of the GWS's  "Auto Train" book states: "These had bus seats with green upholstery, a feature which was extended to W221W (Wren) during a later overhaul (so Wren's bus seats were obviously a different colour before). When i was contructing my  Swindon 1956 Inter-City and 1957 Cross-Country sets, i determined that their second-class seats were also green, so perhaps it was the same fabric?    BK

[Douglas G]

I have had another look at the Peter Gray photos showing coaches of the second batch W235 to W244, Diagram A43. Looking under a magnifying glass in daylight the seats could perhaps be a grey-green colour rather than a blue-grey as I first described. The best image is a view of a coach with loco 1421 taken from above the cattle dock at Dulverton in 1963. I think as they are all distant shots, the effect of the atmosphere is likely to have given them a blue tinge, and it does also depend on the colour reproduction. The only interior colour photo of these photos I am aware of is the Exe Valley Line film from Tiverton Museum I referred to earlier in post #240. This was filmed on very grainy cine film, and there are only brief glimpses of the seats. They look blue-grey to me, but perhaps they were indeed a greenish grey - again it could be the effect of light from the windows and the colour reproduction.

 

Regarding the screen shot of a coach in post #184, which shows bus type seats with a red brown fabric—is it possible that this is Wren before it was refurbished and given the greenish fabric, as mentioned in post #281? Wren was a one-off modified diagram given coach type seats some time before the second batch W235 to W244 were built. If you look closely at the seats in #184, they are of a slightly different design from those in W239 of Diagram A43 shown on page 293 of the Lewis GW Auto Trailers book. In W239 the grab handles on the top seat corners in the aisle are chrome loops separate from the seat, while in the coach in #184 they are a solid part of the seat frame with a cut-out in the fabric. This makes me think it is a one-off design, and it could not be Thrush as that had high back seats with a headrest.

 

I wonder if the South Devon railway have any of the original seats or fabric from the autocoaches they own?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Douglas G

[Trevellan]

My lined maroon version arrived yesterday and I am quite pleased with it, although I agree with others that the floor looks odd. However, there is also a feeling of something which is not particularly good value for money. I already have the Airfix and Hornby autocoaches and, when comparing the three of them, there doesn't seem to be the major step-change in quality and detail that has occurred with other models to current standards.

 

I'm aware of development and tooling costs, but the price tag on this coach seems odd. The Bachmann 64xx is a superb model and well worth the £72.99 I paid for it. However, the Hawksworth autocoach set me back £62.61 with postage, which seems wrong for a model which is not particularly complex, especially in comparison with the ex-LMS inspection saloon.

 

I rarely feel dissatisfied when it comes to the high quality models we now enjoy and the bottom line, I suppose, is that I should just be grateful Bachmann have produced something I couldn't. But despite all the foregoing, the ambivalent feeling persists....

[Douglas G]

I wonder if this is where Bachmann got the idea of bright blue seats for their autocoach - the restoration of W233W, which has been given new seats:

 

http://www.auto169.co.uk/workon233.htm

 

http://www.auto169.co.uk/images/2015_03_08-w233w-04.jpg

 

http://www.auto169.co.uk/images/2015_06_10-w233w-03.jpg

Edited November 14, 2015 by Douglas G

[Budgie]

The four-coach autotrain I mentioned a few days ago:

[TrevorP1]

My plain crimson example has just arrived from Kernow and it is a beautiful little model.

 

The height of the floor is bit of an issue but it doesn't show from rail level which will be my normal viewing point. Not sure what to do about passengers, or come to that the driver, as I fear 'amputations' may make the appearance worse... I'll consider this when the Hattons 1400 is available to make the train complete.

 

Foe the record, as regards the body colour it is almost the same as the recent Hornby exLMS suburbans in the same contempory livery. I have a couple of these as they were used in the west country late 1950s early 60s.

 

My other modelling interest is late 1980s Scotrail so it will be interesting to see how the coming Bachmann Mk2 DBSO compares in construction, detail, floor height etc

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Here are some shots from landscapes of steam, what looks like one auto train from Princes Risborough to Aylesbury and also filmed at Haddenham is in fact two auto trains one with a lined Thrush and the other a unlined maroon train from which the inside shots are taken. The film is edited so a train arrives at a station and then filmed departing but is not the same one! I never noticed it before. At this time there were two auto trains at Aylesbury so I guess who ever filmed them took both, as they had both Hawksworth trailers and 64XX as motive power.

 

I have stopped framed in a few places and can see the number of the unlined trailer as W236.so this one proves the fact that the later bus type trailers had red seats well W236 at least.

 

Also seen in the screen shot is Thrush which the inside end is lined maroon and very dirty and not black.

 

Another interesting thing in the film is 64XX is lined green and left hand tank is lined green late crest while the right hand tank is plain black with early crest!

 

Judging by the DMU and other clues the film must date from no earlier than 1960 and no later than 1962, I would think more 1962.

 

David

Edited November 14, 2015 by David Bigcheeseplant

[TheSignalEngineer]

64XX same loco, different dates or different locos?

The nearest allocation was Banbury. It had 6429 from 6/69 to 10/61, 6403 from 1/60 to 10/62 and 6421 from 7/60 to 10/61. 

 

Post #276 above shows 6429 at Aylesbury South, apparently in early emblem plain black hauling Thrush (probably) in what looks like plain carmine livery.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Dave,

    It's difficult to piece the history together, especially from clips of old cine film. I think the interior is the rebuilt Wren (or possibly a contrasting 1954 car), not Thrush, these are the curved-top bus seats which on Wren were "red",  the image may make them look more brown or tan, although confusingly, Lewis reports a brown plastic interior?. I believe all the later 1954 batch had green seats, which might appear bluey in some film? The rebuilt Thrush had higher backed seats with straight tops, which came almost halfway up the main window panes. The exterior shot of Thrush, showing the lined maroon inner ends is particularly useful.

                             Cheers, Brian.

[RJS1977]

I'm guessing you mean the model? If so, depending on the timing of them arriving (they've been sent today apparently) we may be doing just that. I'll post a link if it gets done

 

If you mean the real thing, I could have done until recently when the DFR auto trailers + 14xx moved to the Severn Valley :-/ oh well, they may be back

 

I can't tell one version of an autocoach from another (one reason why I'm not prepared to fork out £70 for the model!) but are either of these videos of a 64XX and Autocoach on the Wallingford branch for the 50th Anniversary of closure in 2009 of interest? (Apologies that there is some duplication between the two videos):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0xQDPtCNA8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0xQDPtCNA8

[Brian Hawkins]

Hi everyone, just a quick question on the Auto Trailers if I may, i recently purchased Bachmann 31-636 Class 64xx Pannier Tank in preparation for the arrival of the now released Auto Trailers I purchased 39-575 in crimson & cream and very nice they both are, now I'm so impressed by 39-575 that I wish to purchace 39-576 in maroon, would they look out of place if I ran them with the Pannier sandwiched between ? Thanks for any advise.

[Brian Kirby]

I can't tell one version of an autocoach from another (one reason why I'm not prepared to fork out £70 for the model!) but are either of these videos of a 64XX and Autocoach on the Wallingford branch for the 50th Anniversary of closure in 2009 of interest? (Apologies that there is some duplication between the two videos):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0xQDPtCNA8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0xQDPtCNA8

Wrong kind of autocoach mate, nice videos though. The autocoach shown is more like the earlier Airfix/Hornby type. The Wallingford line seems to have come on leaps and bounds, i must pay it a visit. Question: If a group of people were born and bred in Wallingford, would they be "a bunch of wallies"?  (Sorry!) :-))   BK

[Brian Kirby]

Hi everyone, just a quick question on the Auto Trailers if I may, i recently purchased Bachmann 31-636 Class 64xx Pannier Tank in preparation for the arrival of the now released Auto Trailers I purchased 39-575 in crimson & cream and very nice they both are, now I'm so impressed by 39-575 that I wish to purchace 39-576 in maroon, would they look out of place if I ran them with the Pannier sandwiched between ? Thanks for any advise.

Hi Brian,

It's quite possible, but has anyone found a pic of this combo yet? No one seems to know for sure, how long the crimson and cream livery lasted. Western Region were told off by BR headquarters about this livery and WR agreed to repaint them into a single colour livery. This might have been into the plain crimson, like the following 1954 batch, if they were repainted prior to 1956, but there isn't much proof? They definitely went into plain maroon and then lined maroon after 1956. The Bachmann plain crimson would be a safer partner for your crimson and cream car, IMHO.       BK

Edited November 14, 2015 by Brian Kirby

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The inside shots are of W236 the number apears several times in the film, It is not Wren as in bench seats by the entrance door were longer than the A40 diagram the bench seats only run for one window length, which they do in the photo I posted earlier. on Wren they were longer maybe two windows but one an a half at least.

 

The preserved autocoach 233 is a real dogs dinner and nothing like how it was in BR service, different bogies it has a window plated up different buffers, and the current restoration has put windows in the non driving end which none of the BR built trailers had. The seats are from a modern road coach.

 

I have been looking through other colour photo books and agree in some shots the seats do seem green on the A40 batch but not clear enough to know for sure. What we do know is that the seats in the first batch as modelled by Bachmann should be brown, W220 Thrush was green, W221 Wren maybe green. W236 is red

 

I recived my maroon autocoach yesterday and I must admit it is a really nice model the finish and lining are fantastic. It needs a few extras the brackets and linkages under the driving end and the weathering of the roof and underframe and changing the inside to Thrush. The bogies seem really fine and there is even the drain on the steam heat pipe on the underframe.

 

David

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Dave,

    I must have read your post straight away this afternoon, before you edited it later on!    BK

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have noticed on page 374 of autotrailers book by John Lewis it gives details of trailer 240 on the Dart Valley Railway as it was in 1968 and notes seats mid green moquette! So we have W236 with red and W240 with green seats, as was noted in a previous post the seats are slightly different between W236 and W221 with the chrome surround to a differnt patten.

 

I guess if you are modelling the first batch with bench seats like the Bachmann model, these trailers plus Thrush had curtains the later batch did not.

 

David

Edited November 14, 2015 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Brian Kirby]

I think we can agree that there seems to be some seat colour variation, even within each batch, there must have been odd instances, when the works would have reupholstered with whichever fabric was available at the time. We can only pinpoint what was common or typical at the time. Just look at all various seat fabrics used on BR Mk1 coaches!      BK

[TheSignalEngineer]

I think we can agree that there seems to be some seat colour variation, even within each batch, there must have been odd instances, when the works would have reupholstered with whichever fabric was available at the time. We can only pinpoint what was common or typical at the time. Just look at all various seat fabrics used on BR Mk1 coaches!      BK

Even more so with Bitza DMUs at Tyseley, where it was often possible to find three different styles in the same coach. 

[RJS1977]

Wrong kind of autocoach mate, nice videos though. The autocoach shown is more like the earlier Airfix/Hornby type. The Wallingford line seems to have come on leaps and bounds, i must pay it a visit. Question: If a group of people were born and bred in Wallingford, would they be "a bunch of wallies"?  (Sorry!) :-))   BK

 

Thanks for that - it gives me another reason not to buy one!

 

I'm afraid the line hasn't come on in quite as many "leaps and bounds" as the video might make out - the loco and autocoach were both only visiting for the weekend. There is progress, but it is only as volunteer and financial resources allow.

[dibber25]

64XX same loco, different dates or different locos?

The nearest allocation was Banbury. It had 6429 from 6/69 to 10/61, 6403 from 1/60 to 10/62 and 6421 from 7/60 to 10/61. 

 

Post #276 above shows 6429 at Aylesbury South, apparently in early emblem plain black hauling Thrush (probably) in what looks like plain carmine livery.

I don't have access to the reference here at home, but when I wrote-up the prototype notes on the 64XXs for Model Rail there was certainly a picture of one member of the class with mis-matched tanks - one black tank on an otherwise green loco, if I recall correctly. This would doubtless have happened due to hasty replacement of a leaking tank with whatever was available. Probably done as a shed repair without time or access to materials and skills necessary to repaint it. Other such repairs to note were the Oxford-based 74XX which had its cracked chimney repaired with a section of a 50gallon drum, and of course the most famous of all, 7816 which had its leaking tender replaced - very late in its career - with one which still carried GWR initials, leading some to assume that the loco had never been repainted into BR livery. (CJL)

[Brian Kirby]

I don't have access to the reference here at home, but when I wrote-up the prototype notes on the 64XXs for Model Rail there was certainly a picture of one member of the class with mis-matched tanks - one black tank on an otherwise green loco, if I recall correctly. This would doubtless have happened due to hasty replacement of a leaking tank with whatever was available. Probably done as a shed repair without time or access to materials and skills necessary to repaint it.  (CJL)

So a tank was probably swapped from an out of service, or scrap, loco and as you say, with no time to match up the paintwork? The livery may have been restored a week or so later, during a quieter period, or perhaps never was, such was the state of play towards the end of WR steam?       BK