Bachmann Hawksworth Autocoach

[K14]

I think it should be a reddish-brown fabric for the seats - typical of Hawksworth era coaches. It was the later batch with bus style seating that were blue, I believe.

 

Attached are three pictures I took a few years ago of one of these coaches at Didcot before restoration. I think the fabric on the back of the bench seat running below the windows on the right is the original fabric.

 

The curtains were a light grey colour.

er... Not as such.

 

The cloth on the seat back looks like the 1937 'Fan' pattern:—

 

 

(Stick marked at 3" intervals for scale)

 

Hawksworth 3rd class cloth looks like this:—

 

 

As far as we know it only came in one base colour, The examples above are rather faded, but the background was originally turquoise & the pattern a rich red. The above show 7372 at Didcot and is as it left BR service,

 

This was superseded c.1949 by 'filigree':—

 

 

This is the red version which was used to indicate Non-Smoking compartments. Smoking was the same pattern on a dark blue base. in W231 the small saloon (16 seats) is Non-Smoking. The photo frame on the end wall is an original BR-era fitting, but wasn't there as built.

 

After that we get all Nationalised & find the 'crowsfoot' pattern (which the Bluebell call 'Sprig and Octopus' & date it to the mid-50s):—

 

 

This example is from 7313 at Didcot and is as it left BR service,

 

I can't be certain, but I believe that curtains & Rexine blinds were colour-coordinated to the upholstery. We have a number of Rexine blinds at Didcot that are Brown, Green, Red and Dark Blue. Some are embossed with the GWR roundel whereas others have B.R. in an oval.

 

In W231 the cab & luggage floors are painted and the saloon & vestibule floors are covered with a mid-brown lino (this also shows the blue variant of the filigree pattern):—

 

 

When I was repainting W231, I removed all the aluminium sliding vents - the first time they'd been out since the coach was purchased from BR. When stripping them down I found...

 

Several coats of preservation-era cream over

Maroon over

Crimson over

Cream.

 

So it carried all three main variants. Whether it was ever lined crimson is another matter; on p.262 of Vol 2 of John Lewis' trailers book are a couple of letters dated 7th & 22nd July '52 relaying the diktat from 222 Marylebone Road that non-mainline stock should be unlined crimson & that Swindon would enforce that as of the 22nd.

 

Pete S.

C&W Dept.,

GWS Didcot

Edited November 7, 2015 by K14

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for popping the interior pic in Larry, there's a fine old mixture of material there! I would guess that the brown seat backs are BR period, the plain red being replacements (bums and feet cause more wear and tear, than backs)? On the other hand, you'd think the hard working preservationists would want it all to match, so maybe all of this is how it looked as it came out of service, those curtains certainly do?Then there's this darker red nearer the camera? I bet by the 60s, they were patched up with all sorts of fabrics. The chocolate and cream walls are near enough, for the 1951 batch the John Lewis book quotes "dark oak paint below the waist and off-white above", which would be paler. It also tells us that the 1954 batch and the rebuilt 220 had full depth "pale plastic laminate in pastel shades" (cream, green?), 221 gained "brown plastic laminate". The preserved W238W and W240W are from the 1954 batch with DMU seats, anyone got any interior colour pics from the DVR?   BK

Edited November 7, 2015 by Brian Kirby

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for that Pete, very useful info and pics, although strictly speaking, no one's talking about lined crimson, although that did appear on some loco-hauled sub stock in the late 40s and very early 50s, but not these Hawksworth autos (AFAIK). Well done spotting those two letters (actually on page 362), Mr.Riddles telling off the naughty WR for applying crimson and cream to these non-corridor autos, the reply is slightly sheepish, saying we'll repaint them whenever they appear back at Swindon, so no rush there then. Now i ask you, how soon would a 1951 vehicle need repainting? In five or so years time the livery would be replaced by maroon.   

                                                        Cheers, Brian.

[Douglas G]

Hi Pete S,

 

I have spent hours puzzling over the black and white photos and text in the Russell, Harris and Lewis books trying to work out what colour to paint the seats. As a 2mm modeller I am trying to recreate the overall colour of the seats seen from a distance—it is not practical to recreate the seat pattern—so I have found a mix of red, brown and grey gives the best overall impression of most of this different patterns. I find screwing up my eyes tends to help to determine the correct overall colour.

 

You say that the smoking compartment of W231 has the blue version of the "filigree" and the other seats are the red version of the "filigree" pattern. In the picture I linked to above in #176, the seats look the same reddish colour in both the smoking compartment to the right and the other seats nearer the camera. Is this just due to the two patterns looking similar from a distance? Certainly at a scale distance the blue filigree pattern would be nothing like the bright blue in the Bachmann model.

 

It was W231 that I photographed myself (!) many years ago when it was still in the preservation chocolate and cream livery.

[The Stationmaster]

If you read the relevant section of John Lewis's otherwise excellent book "GW Autocoaches Vol.2.", i think there's some confusion over the liveries of these vehicles, especially regarding crimson and maroon. As far as i can see, all the 1951 batch (220-234, diag.A38) when new were painted crimson and cream, and all the 1954 batch (235-244, diag.43) when new were painted plain crimson, nothing changed until after 1956/7, when repaints were in either plain maroon or lined maroon. Concerning non-corridor stock post-1956, the general trend was plain maroon usually came first, followed by lined maroon, there is proof that a WR General Manager (Stanley Raymond?) was keen on lined stock for their smarter appearance, including DMUs, although he also got rid of the chocolate and cream corridor stock livery. Some Hawksworth autocoaches remained in plain maroon until withdrawal in the mid-60s.

    The dilemma for Bachmann would have been that the 1951 version and interior (as produced) is probably not correct for plain crimson, equally producing the 1954 version with DMU seats, would have precluded application of the crimson and cream livery. I think they made the right decision, but they still can't correctly produce "Thrush" (diag.A39) or "Wren" (diag.A40) and any of the 1954 batch, without new interiors (which probably could not be justified). They could correctly do 225,228,231 and 232 in "preserved" DVR/GWS chocolate and cream, but would they sell?  BK  

I'm fairly sure that Stanley Raymond didn't arrive on the Western until 1962 although it might possibly have been a year earlier and I was under the impression that the lined maroon livery on the auto coaches pre-dated that. 

[Ian Hargrave]

I'm fairly sure that Stanley Raymond didn't arrive on the Western until 1962 although it might possibly have been a year earlier and I was under the impression that the lined maroon livery on the auto coaches pre-dated that. 

That's correct. Stanley Raymond's war on the W.R. began in 1962.....the first evidence of the new regime being the rapid disappearance of chocolate & cream on titled expresses. Mind you,he did have to tackle a large deficit.

[The Stationmaster]

That's correct. Stanley Raymond's war on the W.R. began in 1962.....the first evidence of the new regime being the rapid disappearance of chocolate & cream on titled expresses. Mind you,he did have to tackle a large deficit.

He also set out to destroy any traces he could find of any hint at all of the Great Western past - his destruction of much history along the 1st floor corridor of the General Offices at Paddington was never forgotten by those who worked there at the time and I never came across anybody anywhere on the Region who had (or was prepared to admit they had) any time or respect for him.

[Ian Hargrave]

Going back to my roots,I 've just looked at my copy of The Vale Of Neath Line by Jones & Dunstone and on page 178 are two photos dated July& August 1962 of the Hirwaun- Merthyr auto train with 64XX and single lined maroon Hawksworth.....which would pre date the Raymond "putsch".

In the mid 50's I can ....just....recall a ride in a crimson&cream example from Aberaman to Abercynon.It was not usual but I think it happened on a weekend journey to either Ponty or Cardiff.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Here is an interior shot of W236 notice the red seats. It seems very sparse compared to the earlier examples more like a bus!

 

I would think the picture dates from around 1960

 

David 

Edited August 8, 2019 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Market65]

Just to let you all know that I purchased a BR maroon auto coach at the Hull Model Railway show, from Caistor Loco at £62.00.

A really lovely model, and noticed on the Wizard Models stand, a kit for one of these coaches priced at £47.50. I think I have that price right. So when you add on paint, glue, solder, etc, time taken to build and paint it, then the Bachmann model works out quite good as far as it's pricing is concerned.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The picture I posted is not Thrush as that should have high backed seats but one of the standard later lots

[Brian Kirby]

Here is an interior shot of Thrush notice the red seats. It seems very sparse compared to the earlier examples more like a bus!

 

I would think the picture dates from around 1960

 

David 

Great picture, thanks for posting, yes it does look rather spartan. That's not you in the photo is it, or is it the kid from the cover of M-A-D comic? Also, are they integral ashtrays on the back of the seats, for the cancer stick brigade?   BK

[Brian Kirby]

Going back to my roots,I 've just looked at my copy of The Vale Of Neath Line by Jones & Dunstone and on page 178 are two photos dated July& August 1962 of the Hirwaun- Merthyr auto train with 64XX and single lined maroon Hawksworth...

Did you mean to say a single (one) coach with lining, as opposed to a coach with single lining? I've got the book, and the two pics show a regular lined maroon Hawk.auto, although i can't make out whether it's a 1951 or 1954 car? These pics highlight another Bachmann potential hiccup, this photoed one and many others have plain black back ends, whereas Bachmann have carried the maroon and the lining all the way around the rear. It's faintly possible one or two were like this, but i think it's dodgy. Anyone seen a pic of an inside end in lined maroon? I'd say yes to crimson and cream all the way around, not sure about plain crimson? Airfix always did their earlier autocoach with a plain maroon back end. 

    Regarding Stanley Raymond, or perhaps his immediate predecessor, whoever was W.R. General Manager in the early 60s, instructed that brand new Pressed Steel DMUs in plain green were to have lining added, to improve their appearance, so it's not much of a leap that the policy was extended to any surviving non-corridor stock in plain maroon. On the other hand, maybe they just followed the general trend with sub.stock in the late 50s?     BK

[chrisf]

As I recall, lining was first applied to non-corridor stock from mid 1959.  The change was not immediate across the fleet.  On a visit to Barry in February 1962 I noted non-corridor coaches still sporting crimson and unlined maroon.

 

Chris

[ELTEL]

Who's going to be first to get one apart to add a driver and or passengers.

Driver & Passengers all seated for the guards whistle and we're off.

 

Light weathering to come later

 

Terry

[K14]

Hi Pete S,

 

I have spent hours puzzling over the black and white photos and text in the Russell, Harris and Lewis books trying to work out what colour to paint the seats. As a 2mm modeller I am trying to recreate the overall colour of the seats seen from a distance—it is not practical to recreate the seat pattern—so I have found a mix of red, brown and grey gives the best overall impression of most of this different patterns. I find screwing up my eyes tends to help to determine the correct overall colour.

 

You say that the smoking compartment of W231 has the blue version of the "filigree" and the other seats are the red version of the "filigree" pattern. In the picture I linked to above in #176, the seats look the same reddish colour in both the smoking compartment to the right and the other seats nearer the camera. Is this just due to the two patterns looking similar from a distance? Certainly at a scale distance the blue filigree pattern would be nothing like the bright blue in the Bachmann model.

 

It was W231 that I photographed myself (!) many years ago when it was still in the preservation chocolate and cream livery.

 

Hi Douglas,

 

I'm not sure when W231 was re-upholstered, but it was prior to 1990, so there's a good chance that your slides of W231 show it when it still had the red 'crowsfoot'/'octopus' cloth.  In that guise there is no distinction between 'smoking classes' other than the little triangular transfers on the windows. AFAIK 'filigree' was the last incarnation of the distinction. 7313 still retains its ex-service cloth in the 3rds & they are all crowsfoot; it's 1sts were clothed in the blue 'autumn leaves' pattern - again without distinction.

 

I totally appreciate the problem of representing interiors at reduced scale & a compromise is the best that can be hoped for. A while back I attempted to produce a printed representation of the c.1900 'white star' motif & found that, even in 7mm, it just didn't work at all. For the purposes of the Hawksworth trailers, I'd suggest a dark blue/red combination for the B 'n' C vehicles & agree with your red-brown for maroon (erring towards the red).

 

P.

Edited November 8, 2015 by K14

[K14]

The chocolate and cream walls are near enough, for the 1951 batch the John Lewis book quotes "dark oak paint below the waist and off-white above", which would be paler.  

BK

When we gave W231 its 'facelift' we had the interior to bits in a fairly big way - all the seats out, all the polished trim off and also the wall panels above the windows (as the gutters were replaced & we needed access to the cant rail channel). This was the first time it had been done in preservation & revealed a few things...

 

The saloon walls were finished with a self-coloured predecessor to Formica; below the waist was a very dark brown - near enough 'Bourneville' - & the upper panels were very nearly white (memory suggests they may have had a green tinge which could imply they were some kind of celluloid that had discoloured over time). Jointing strips were brown-anodised aluminium H-section all round.

 

Seat ends, interior sliding doors & the window surrounds were all stained & varnished dark walnut. One of the seat backs was chalked 9/61 which indicates its last shopping date. The regulator in the underfloor small 'battery' box bears the same date.

 

The cab & vestibule were grained dark & light oak with the waistline being the nominal division. The van was also grained, but had been hacked about over the years such that next to no clues survived as to the graining arrangement. As such I took as my reference the surviving ex-factory graining in 7371 which is light oak top to bottom apart from the Guard's door which was dark oak. It may well be that this is wrong & the van ought to follow the cab pattern.

 

For modelling purposes I'd suggest dark brown/white for the saloons & a deep red-brown/sandy brown for the cab, vestibule & van. Mid/dark brown for the lino.

 

Another intriguing variation is the positioning of the PCA box & downpipe on the end.

The official shot of W221 in JL's book shows it mounted on the centre flat panel. W231 has it in the same position, but when the old paint was stripped from the end four holes emerged on the L/H angled panel that could only have held the PCA box. W225 on the South Devon shows this variant:—

 

(photo from Wikimedia Commons)

 

When that happened (& to which vehicles) is anybody's guess. Note that in the above pic the PCA gear should be body colour, as should the feet of the handrails on the cream and the backs of the steps & lamp bracket. Pretty sure that the handrails below the waist were red all over.

 

With regard to works shopping intervals, the painted 'SP' date (Shopping Proposed) was 3 years from build date. A bit of paint archaeology on one of the internal panels from 7371 suggests a maximum five year interval as does an emergency tool cupboard door from 1184.

 

One thing Bachmann seem to have missed is the white line across the driving end windows & droplights.

 

P.

[Ian Hargrave]

Did you mean to say a single (one) coach with lining, as opposed to a coach with single lining? I've got the book, and the two pics show a regular lined maroon Hawk.auto, although i can't make out whether it's a 1951 or 1954 car? These pics highlight another Bachmann potential hiccup, this photoed one and many others have plain black back ends, whereas Bachmann have carried the maroon and the lining all the way around the rear. It's faintly possible one or two were like this, but i think it's dodgy. Anyone seen a pic of an inside end in lined maroon? I'd say yes to crimson and cream all the way around, not sure about plain crimson? Airfix always did their earlier autocoach with a plain maroon back end. 

    Regarding Stanley Raymond, or perhaps his immediate predecessor, whoever was W.R. General Manager in the early 60s, instructed that brand new Pressed Steel DMUs in plain green were to have lining added, to improve their appearance, so it's not much of a leap that the policy was extended to any surviving non-corridor stock in plain maroon. On the other hand, maybe they just followed the general trend with sub.stock in the late 50s?     BK

Single meaning one autocoach The images themselves are not clear,just sufficiently so to indicate that they are lined.

[coachmann]

I never rode in a GW auto coach in BR days, only Hawksworth corridor stock. I can only describe compartment walls above the seats as looking like hardboard sprayed cream colour. From memory the finish was referred to as 'Holoplast', a sprayed finish. It was certainly cheap after riding in LMS coaches with varnished timbers. I find it best to represent interior colours with somewhat lighter paints than in life so that they show in the gloom of 4mm coaches. 

Edited November 8, 2015 by coachmann

[Brian Kirby]

 

 

One thing Bachmann seem to have missed is the white line across the driving end windows & droplights.

 

P.

I took these to be internal handrails, or perhaps bars to stop a loose cab window hitting the driver on the head, like on very early Derby Lightweight DMUs? It's a practice carried on from GWR days, but the 1954 batch (with DMU seats) never seemed to have had them. Even the 1951 batch and older GW vehicles appear to have lost them later on in the 1950s. Thanks for the info K14.

      Another distinction between batches is the fitting of curtains, 1951 cars (Bachmann) had them, 221 aka "Wren" lost them when rebuilt with bus/DMU seats, and the 1954 batch never had them. Even some of the regular 1951 cars lost their curtains in later years (e.g. W232W in Lewis WSP page 289) BK     BK

[David Bigcheeseplant]

A crop of Wren at High Wycombe in what looks like unlined Maroon, all the photos I can find of Wren show it as unlined in Maroon while Thrush was lined.

 

I am not too sure if the non driving end was painted black or just got that way due to lack of cleaning in either crimson or maroon livery.

 

It is not me in the inside photo, I was not around then. The photo is a clip from a film Landscapes of steam of an autotrain on the Risborough Aylesbury branch, most of the outside shots are of Thrush but the inside ones are of another trailer so thats where the confusion came from, there are a few outside shots of the auto train which show an unlined hawksworth trailer which I guess is the same one of the inside shot. 

 

David

[Brian Kirby]

The back end looks black to me too, don't think Wren ever received lined maroon, odd to see it behind a non-auto 61xx, on the Banbury to High Wycombe service. No curtains either, with it's DMU spec.interior. Thrush on the other hand, went from crimson and cream, (missed out plain crimson?), to plain maroon, then to lined maroon and retained curtains throughout.    BK

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Landscapes of steam No. 3 Countryside Through the Chilterns it has plenty of interest if you know the area.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Whatever coach model I tend to spray the roof with Pheonix roof dirt and the underframe and ends in a matt colour. and try and gloss up the sides a bit, it really makes a model look something like the real thing.

[Brian Kirby]

 it really makes a model look something like the real thing.

That's what we're all trying to do old son, innit?     BK