Bachmann Hawksworth Autocoach

[coachmann]

The colour of Auto Trailer inside ends is not straightforward. They were definitely painted in carmine or maroon in the 1950s and into the 1960s. The latest dated picture I found with maroon ends is 1963, but it does appear they were painted black in all the 1964 pictures seen (so far). If the pre-war examples had gone by 1962-3, it is a fair bet they never got black inside ends.

Edited November 8, 2015 by coachmann

[David Bigcheeseplant]

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Three photos of Thush at Aylesbury taken by John Reid, I have noticed although there is no horizontal while line on the end windows there is a vertical white line on the drivers door window, normally if there was white lines applied this line was horizontal.

 

David

Edited November 8, 2015 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Metr0Land]

July61 Calvert station looks to be unlined maroon:

https://flic.kr/p/e5UNGp

[Market65]

That photo' at Calvert also means that you can make some use of a BR Standard 2-6-2T.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Market65

[unravelled]

A few pictures from 1964, of the Chalford services. I think they are the correct version. Some interesting weathering/distressing effects.

 

At Chalford in the charge of 9711. Shows white line on cab droplight. Not much sign of cleaning above window level. There is paint loss on the cover strip between cab windows. Good job it's downhill judging by the empty bunker.

 

 

 

Better view of white line on droplight. Any idea of the reason for this? Did someone suffer concussion trying to look in/out of a closed one?

 

 

 

Looks like the same trailer approaching St Mary's Crossing Halt. Driver standing, possibly applying brake.

 

 

 

Another trailer (W237W) leaving Brimscombe. Almost no paint on cover and corner strips. No cleaning above window line again. White line on droplight possibly narrower on this trailer. Driver seemes to be seated.

 

 

 

Dave

[Torn-on-the-platform]

That photo' at Calvert also means that you can make some use of a BR Standard 2-6-2T.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

 

The Middleton Press Moretonhampstead book contains a photo of 3MT 82032 in charge of two crimson auto coaches, I'm relatively sure that they are Hawksworth. There is also a photo of 3600 with the same formation and 3659 with two crimson cream autos. I hope to be able to recreate these formations in the not too distant future!

[coachmann]

A B&R Video of the GWR (Western Region actually) shows the way things deteriorated on that region. It starts at Paddington in 1959 with clean green engines and some blood & custards (the popularity of the Western meant has left us a lot more movie from the 1950's than on the other regions). Paddington in 1964 shows a bvery different picture with a marked decline in cleanliness. By this time movie cameramen were down to filming any steam engine that moved, which meant light engine and empty stock movements. The film then shows sequences from the last year pf the Kings and cleanliness is a mixed bag but mostly rather neglected.  The branch push pull services in 1964 are also on the program and things looked pretty shabby, as shown in the Chalford photos above. Even in 1963 though, the deteriorating external appearance of WR locos was still in marked contrast to inter-regional LM Region and S Region workings where locos had always been pretty shabby. I also have a video showing W.Region steam between Chester and Wrexham in 1964-5 showing the depressing state of 4-6-0s with missing name and number plates following the LM Region takeover. The cameraman was probably very glad there was still some Western steam about.

 

On a personal level I saw this chain of events unfold on the Cambrian coast 1956 - 64 and latterly around Croes Newyd..... It was very sad. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by coachmann

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if the white bar on the drop light was there as a hint to Signalmen that the window was not open and it was therefore inadvisable to try to show a token through it?  It would be useful if the appearance of the white line could be dated - I can't find any official reference to it (which is not surprising as I'm sure it wouldn't necessarily relate to any particular Instruction) but the Autotrain Instructions regarding single line tokens were slightly amended in December 1958 which suggests what had gone before might have been found to be ineffective.

[Bulwell Hall]

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Three photos of Thush at Aylesbury taken by John Reid, I have noticed although there is no horizontal while line on the end windows there is a vertical white line on the drivers door window, normally if there was white lines applied this line was horizontal.

 

David

Hi David

 

Would the young fireman in the first photo be your Dad by any chance!  Certainly looks like he could be!

 

Gerry

[chrisf]

The Middleton Press Moretonhampstead book contains a photo of 3MT 82032 in charge of two crimson auto coaches, I'm relatively sure that they are Hawksworth. There is also a photo of 3600 with the same formation and 3659 with two crimson cream autos. I hope to be able to recreate these formations in the not too distant future!

 

They are.  For much of the 1950s there were shortages of auto trailers in Devon and there were shortages of auto fitted engines.  These shortages never coincided.

 

When there were trailers, the regular pair for much of the 1950s was 224 and 234.  This information comes from an article in the Railway Observer by the late R P Walford, who lived at Bovey Tracey and was apparently of independent means.  Sadly it is not clear from the article exactly when various things happened, such as coaches visiting the paint shops!   However, it does say that for the last few weeks of passenger working on the Moretonhampstead branch the regular trailer was 241, liveried in maroon.  This would have been unlined.

 

By the way, I bought a crimson model yesterday.  I have to say that I don't think much of the shade of crimson but I don't have a British Standards colour chart either.  Beauty, they tell me, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Chris

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi David

 

Would the young fireman in the first photo be your Dad by any chance!  Certainly looks like he could be!

 

Gerry

No its not, but I will find out who they are, the middle one is the shed master.

 

Attached is a photo of my Dad at Risborough he will be 82 next week and still rides his bike to the paper shop most day.

Edited November 9, 2015 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Ian Hargrave]

They are.  For much of the 1950s there were shortages of auto trailers in Devon and there were shortages of auto fitted engines.  These shortages never coincided.

 

When there were trailers, the regular pair for much of the 1950s was 224 and 234.  This information comes from an article in the Railway Observer by the late R P Walford, who lived at Bovey Tracey and was apparently of independent means.  Sadly it is not clear from the article exactly when various things happened, such as coaches visiting the paint shops!   However, it does say that for the last few weeks of passenger working on the Moretonhampstead branch the regular trailer was 241, liveried in maroon.  This would have been unlined.

 

By the way, I bought a crimson model yesterday.  I have to say that I don't think much of the shade of crimson but I don't have a British Standards colour chart either.  Beauty, they tell me, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

You are not alone in your judgement of that shade,In his review for Model Rail,Chris Leigh reaches the same conclusion.....and he should know.

 

Chris

[Brian Kirby]

When freshly applied BR Crimson can be as bright, and as light, as "buffer-beam red", at least via photographic interpretation. After a year or two in sunshine, the shade of red will slightly darken, before it starts to fade. Same goes for maroon, it's strawberry red when brand new, and darkens to a red wine colour when exposed to sunlight. I wish people wouldn't criticise a manufacturer's efforts, without knowing the basics of paint ageing, i think all three livery renditions are fabulous, but maybe depicting them after a year or two in service. Do we really want our stock in brand-new ex-works and polished condition?

On the other hand, another factor is what undercoat/primer lies underneath, many (but not all) WR crimson and cream coaches had a quite dazzling shade of crimson, but that could be caused by a very light shade of undercoat grinning through. Crimson never seemed quite as bright on ER or LMR stock, assuming it was exactly the same spec Crimson, maybe they used a darker undercoat? (Again, all above relies on photographic interpretation)

Try this experiment, build two identical coaches, spray one with grey primer, the other in red oxide primer, when dry spray the same crimson on both, then sit back and watch the difference.

Another test, take your Bachmann autocoach outside and check the colour in daylight, then go back indoors and check the colour under your workshop lamp. I bet it looks different.    BK

[No Decorum]

It's an ill wind blows no good. I wear Rule 1 to a frazzle and I also have a number fetish - one of the joys of RTR today is that even humble goods wagons of the same type can be got with different numbers. With a fancy for an auto-fitted Pannier sandwich and bearing in mind the howls at the price of the autocoaches, I doubt that Bachmann will do a re-run any time soon. Hence the crimson version will pass as a somewhat less faded unlined maroon in conjunction with the lined maroon. It's good enough for me and if anyone complains, I'll retreat back to the excuse that it's a crimson one not yet repainted maroon.

 

I have the greatest admiration for what Brian Kirby does but I'm the sort who can even mess up renumbering.

[Bulwell Hall]

No its not, but I will find out who they are, the middle one is the shed master.

 

Attached is a photo of my Dad at Risborough he will be 82 next week and still rides his bike to the paper shop most day.

Good on him - long may he continue!  Good photo of him at Risborough - unusal to see a tall safety valve bonnet on a 'tanner oner' as well!

 

Gerry

[coachmann]

Despite me having seen the early BR liveries first hand, it is not possible with any certainty to say what is 'right' these days, except to say I know what isn't right. Carmine red was not as bright as people who rely on photographic evidence might imagine. It does indeed come over as not much darker than bufferbeam vermilion or red, but that would be the films interpretation plus in-camera over-exposure and the variables of scanning for publication and ink printing. Put carmine red on a coach on its owwn and it invariably looks darker than when it accompanies cream. Could be a couple of reasons, but the carmine might have been applied on top of white undercoat or even the cream on so-called 'blood & custard' livery, whereas plain carmine might have gone on top of grey undercoat. The thing is, it is "correct" when it is light and it is correct when it is dark seeing as the difference depends of time in traffic and local pollution. In Manchester Victoria, I saw numerous variations on the carmine theme, but no doubt all started from the same paint from BR Stores.

 

Crimson Lake was a transparent paint and depended on red-oxide undercoat for its depth. Copal varnish then added a slight yellowing effect, which again gave the maroon a hidden depth thta made the paint look rich in bright sunlight and "black" (exaggeration of course) in lousy overcast conditions. It weathered to a satin or matt finish over time and further changes took place. I remember it tended to look browner in a way LMS coaches had weathered, and yet in the 1960s it weathered to a pinkish state. I put this down to spraying or varnishing with modern clear varnishes.

 

Speaking from a painters viewpoint, it is useless for me to say what you should use, as I use cellulose paint mixed to patterns. My crimson lake (maroon) pattern was from Derby Works around 1971 and was applied to all David Jenkinson's 7mm scale carriages over a period of some thirty years. Red Oxide primer was awful in the 1970s and so I had to apply a home-mixed undercoat colour on top of grey primer until I found a very good red-oxide primer in the mid 1980s.

 

My carmine red 'pattern' was simpler. I wanted my coaches to match some Bachmanns a few years ago and so I mixed the cellulose to match the RTR coaches. It then became my standard superseding a lighter Alfa Romeo colour. In other words, I have settled for an "in-traffic" version of carmine to suit the eggshell finish my customers want these days rather than a bright ex-works carmine to suit gloss finish as produced for Lawrence Scale Models.  I should say Phoenix Precision P116 BR Coach Crimson (1949-55) (BLOOD) is the gold standard seeing as it was first produced so many years ago. In fact, I personally take it as the darkest variation of the theme. Others may see thing differently.

 

I haven't yet seen any Bachmann Auto trailers first hand unfortunately.

Edited November 9, 2015 by coachmann

[dibber25]

They are.  For much of the 1950s there were shortages of auto trailers in Devon and there were shortages of auto fitted engines.  These shortages never coincided.

 

When there were trailers, the regular pair for much of the 1950s was 224 and 234.  This information comes from an article in the Railway Observer by the late R P Walford, who lived at Bovey Tracey and was apparently of independent means.  Sadly it is not clear from the article exactly when various things happened, such as coaches visiting the paint shops!   However, it does say that for the last few weeks of passenger working on the Moretonhampstead branch the regular trailer was 241, liveried in maroon.  This would have been unlined.

 

By the way, I bought a crimson model yesterday.  I have to say that I don't think much of the shade of crimson but I don't have a British Standards colour chart either.  Beauty, they tell me, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Chris

To me, it still looks like unlined - and maybe slightly faded - maroon. (CJL)

[Brian Kirby]

Putting the Bachmann crimson and cream autocoach alongside it's plain crimson cousin, you'd expect the crimson to be the same on each, but no, unless my eyes deceive me, the plain crimson model looks slightly lighter. Now the optical experts tell us that "we all see colours differently", and as Larry says above, the proximity of the cream could be playing tricks on me, as i go cross-eyed? Whatever the outcome, i welcome a bit of shade variation, members of the coaching fleet were never all the same shade.

I have repainted one of the Bachmann interiors, but will hold off showing the pic until others can buy their examples, not wishing to rub salt into the wound! When i've got time, i'm gonna flick through a few colour albums, to see if any maroons have lining around the rear, maybe black ends began with lined maroon livery on autocoaches? Ironically, by the early 60s, BR started spraying ends in body colour on standard stock.     BK

[coachmann]

 When i've got time, i'm gonna flick through a few colour albums, to see if any maroons have lining around the rear, maybe black ends began with lined maroon livery on autocoaches? Ironically, by the early 60s, BR started spraying ends in body colour on standard stock.     BK

Western Steam in Devon & Cornwall by Michael Welsh page 72 :- 6430 at Tavistock South August 1962. Lined maroon Hawksworth Auto Trailer with maroon ends and lining. Also page 24 in April 1963 on Exe Valley line and page 19 at Tiverton Junction in June 1963.

 

A pair of Hawks auto trailers behind 6430 on the Seaton Branch are interesting (page 10), as one is lined maroon but 'tother is either very badly bleached maroon or faded carmine red. The date is July 1963

Edited November 9, 2015 by coachmann

[Brian Kirby]

Western Steam in Devon & Cornwall by Michael Welsh page 72 :- 6430 at Tavistock South August 1962. Lined maroon Hawksworth Auto Trailer with maroon ends and lining. Also page 24 in April 1963 on Exe Valley line and page 19 at Tiverton Junction in June 1963.

 

A pair of Hawks auto trailers behind 6430 on the Seaton Branch are interesting (page 10), as one is lined maroon but 'tother is either very badly bleached maroon or faded carmine red. The date is July 1963

Ta for that, so it's live and let live for both versions, i'm rather pleased about that, more variety. I haven't got Welch's WSinD&C, but i do have his "Western Branch Lines" book, plenty of autocoaches in there, but all lined maroon have black ends, which i suggest is more typical. Also plenty of plain cars with coloured inside ends, including two 1930s cars in all-over crimson leading a 4-car sandwich at Liskeard. BTW, There's also a nice pic of 1458 + Hawk.auto at the real Ellesmere in colour. Caption also mentions the branch crossing "Fenn's Moss" "by means of a timber-framed brushwood raft", - sounds boggy. Good excuse for a bog on Ellesmere North?   BK 

Edited November 9, 2015 by Brian Kirby

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The first two photos in post 203 were taken on the last day of the autotrains on the Risborough - Aylesbury 17th June 1962 with 1440 as motive power, note the bow tie on the driver! the third photo was taken on 29th August 1961.

 

Looking through colour photos I have found black painted inner ends in 1961 and lined maroon ends in 1964 so it I think some got painted black and some were left maroon and some just got dirty! It is far easier to paint a lined maroon end black than do it the other way round.

 

David

Edited November 9, 2015 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Metr0Land]

Putting the Bachmann crimson and cream autocoach alongside it's plain crimson cousin, you'd expect the crimson to be the same on each, but no, unless my eyes deceive me, the plain crimson model looks slightly lighter. Now the optical experts tell us that "we all see colours differently", and as Larry says above, the proximity of the cream could be playing tricks on me, as i go cross-eyed?   BK

 

Not the Bachmann coach but a pic I did a couple of yeras back for another discussion.  I'd used Ford rosso red for the crimson (which I think is ok when weathered).  However the point here is that all 3 coaches have used the same can of rosso red yet the blood and custard one looks decidedly brighter (though of course the undercoat on this one is lighter as the coach was sprayed beige first.

 

[coachmann]

............... but i do have his "Western Branch Lines" book, plenty of autocoaches in there, but all lined maroon have black ends, which I suggest is more typical. 

Brian, it is only a case of being more typical towards the end of autuo trail working circa 1963-4. In earlier times, the typical was carmine or maroon ends with or without lining, born out by dated photographs in six of my colour albums. 

[Douglas G]

I was really interested to see the image in post #184 of an autocoach with "bus type" seats having commented earlier in the thread that I thought they had blue seats.

 

I have gone through all the reference sources I have collected and realise that the source for this belief was a video sold by Tiverton Museum of an old film produced by the "Twyford group" showing a trip on the Exe Valley Line in 1963. There are various interior shots showing blue bus or DMU type seats, very different from these reddish seats. the accompanying exterior shots showed one of the unnamed autotrailers from the second batch. However, as the film edits together shots obviously taken at different times, I wondered if the interior shown might be of Thrush, which was moved to the Exe Valley Line at least by September 1962.

 

However, later in the film there are some exterior shots where blue coach type seats can be seen through the window, but it is an unnamed trailer, not Thrush. So might there have been two types of fabric in the later batch of coaches with the bus type seats, some with blue and some with red?

Edited November 9, 2015 by Douglas G

[Douglas G]

I have now gone thorough photos I have of Dulverton and the Exe Valley Line and there are quite a few, mostly taken by Peter Gray in 1963, which clearly show blue bus type seats in unnamed Hawksworth steel autotrailers.

 

There is also a picture of W220W Thrush at Dulverton in November 1962 on page 13 of the book British Railways Western Region in colour by Laurence Walters where the seat cushions and seat backs look a bluey- grey colour. The chrome hand rails on the seat backs are clearly visible.