Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Mikkel]

23 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Mikkel,

 

I have found that, while pinpoint axles from various suppliers don't vary in overall length (26mm IIRC), the depth of pinpoint bearings can.

 

I often find it necessary to try different suppliers pp bearings  in etched bogies or w-irons for a proper match to keep the etched sides parallel. One supplier of etch sprung bogie  frames even includes a simple etched depth "gauge" in the kit to identify the correct pp bearing to use.

 

Jol

 

Thanks Jol, I've had the same experience. I have been wondering whether apart from internal length it also has to do with the angles of the pinpoint axle and the insides of the bearing.

 

[Mikkel]

23 hours ago, Bluemonkey presents.... said:

A lovely sequence for the build, thank you. Roxey Mouldings have a Dean 8'6" pair of bogies available. I have recently picked some up for a K3 build. Looking at them they seem to follow the conventional, fold and solder as others I have come across, without the inside framing. Roxey appear to be the only source for Dean 8'6" unless you are lucky enough to find a pre-owned set may be. Great job.

 

Thanks Matt, I was not aware of the Roxey bogie, good to know. I wonder if it originated in another range.

 

The Broad Gauge Society also have the ex-IKB etches for the standard gauge Dean 6'4 and 8'6 bogies (items

F4161and F4162 in their online shop). The 6'4 is out of stock but not the 8'6 at time of writing.

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Thanks Jol, I've had the same experience. I have been wondering whether apart from internal length it also has to do with the angles of the pinpoint axle and the insides of the bearing.

 

Hi Mikkel,

 

unless the width between the point end of the bearings matches the length of the axle fairly well, then one or both axle ends will run somewhen along the conical side of the bearing. The greater the angle of the bearing "hole" the further the axle end will ride up it so it would seem better if  the the angle of the axle end and bearing are reasonable similar.

 

However all axle/bearing manufacturers seem to produce similar products (other than variation in bearing depth), so there must be a view that those dimensions are pretty well right.

 

On occasion I have used Exactoscale 1.0mm diameter parallel end axles and bearings but they have a bit more friction and need careful control of side play so am unsure if they offer any real benefits.

 

Jol

[Miss Prism]

20 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

On occasion I have used Exactoscale 1.0mm diameter parallel end axles and bearings but they have a bit more friction and need careful control of side play so am unsure if they offer any real benefits.

 

They can take more weight. (Pinpoints can splay W-irons if they are overloaded.)

 

[Mikkel]

Update on the C10 build.

 

 

I tried building while watching the cycling classics, but that did not go well. Good excuse for all my mistakes though!

 

 

 

One mistake was to put off strengthening the bogie stepboard supports with solder. They are very fragile and will soon break off otherwise. The photo shows the ones I managed to rescue, the rest were replaced with wire  later on.

 

 

 

There’s a good deal of detailing involved with the bogies, satisfying enough as I learnt about some parts I hadn't paid much attention to before.

 

As the wheels were gradually becoming inaccessible, I primed the bogies and painted the Mansell wheels. The latter are brownish red as a loose indication of varnished redwood (see good discussion on Western Thunder here).

 

 

Another silly mistake cost me dearly. I forgot to fit brake shoes until the wheels were firmly in place. Retrofitting the 16 shoes was a hellish task as I could not use the dedicated apertures. As a result the various brake pull yokes didn’t fit properly, so much of that is just indicated with brass wire.

 

 

 

Once back on track, the cross stays and scroll irons were fitted.

 

 

 

A dry run to understand how scroll irons were fitted on the real bogies. There are useful close-ups and drawings of Dean bogies in Russell's GWR Coaches Part 1 p. 93-95.

 

 

 

I didn't fancy making working scroll irons (has anyone done it in 4mm scale?), so cut them as seen here. Clint is not happy, the cuts were all but neat. I need a proper flush cutter!

 

 

 

For the bogies to rotate, the frames have to be modified at each end.

 

 

 

I hope I got the position of the gas cylinders right. I peered into the murky darkness of prototype photos and Didcot's C10, which suggests it's more or less OK.

 

 
 
Then the underframe details (brake pull rods to follow).

 

 

 

I shortened the queen posts, as I felt the truss rods ended up too low if fitted as intended. Prototype photos like this one (and the C10 at Didcot) shows them higher up and fairly discrete. Unless truss rods changed over the years?

 

 

 

The main buffer components. There’s an option of springing them, though I didn’t use it. The instructions state that the buffers "consisted of a curved oval steel plate bolted onto a round buffer head". 

 

 

 
The outer plate needs to be lightly curved and then fitted to the buffer heads. I didn't make a good job of this, it looks a bit odd. I wonder if some ready-made buffers can be obtained instead.

 

 

Next the stepboard hangers went on. This required patience as the hangers, solebars and stepboards all need modification for the parts to fit, as also indicated in the instructions.

 

 

The material used for the stepboards somehow managed to be both bendy and brittle at the time, though note that this is a secondhand kit of some age. My high-tech, high-spec, super-adjustable, multi-purpose jig a.k.a. “The Piano” saved the day.

 

 

The lower stepboards provided a conondrum.  When fitted in the holes provided in the solebars, the hangers sit at the extreme ends of the lower central stepboard. I wonder if that is correct, especially as it means one of the splayed supports sticks out and needs cutting off.

 

 

GWR Dean Third No.1941 by Hugh Llewelyn, on Flickr

The position of the hangers does in fact match Didcot’s preserved C10 (zoom in on above photo), but photos and drawings of similar diagrams in Russell Vol 1 show them further inboard. I’ll leave it for now and see if anyone has further info.

 

 

 

Lastly the bogie stepboards were fitted. It’s striking what a difference stepboards make to the appearance of a coach.

 

 

 
So that’s the state of play. Now for the roof details, door handles and end steps.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mikkel
Fixed link and typos

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Hi Mikkel, Looks like you have had very tricky obstacles to overcome but overcome you have very well. It's surprising how much detail is included within the bogies and how one seemingly small omission can result in a world of pain. I welcome you with open arms to my world 🙂

Great build though, a superb looking coach.

[Mikkel]

Thanks Matt, no doubt a more experienced coach builder would have avoided some of the mistakes I made.

 

What has become clear to me is that these kits are not simply "like Ratio kits but with brass bogies" as I have seen them described. The details and design solutions do require time, and some components need modification to fit properly (as also stated in the instructions in some cases).

 

It's not that they require particularly advanced skills though (which I don't have), just a "one-step-at-the-time" approach. Once I got my mind into that gear and forgot about quick results, it became more satisfying.

 

[Regularity]

8 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Thanks Matt, no doubt a more experienced coach builder would have avoided some of the mistakes I made.

Making mistakes is how they became experienced…

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mikkel I didnt know that you are on WT. 

 Some how I have manage to miss the classics so far this year 

John 

[Charlie586]

Very nicely built, Mikkel. I never realised how detailed these kits were.

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

Making mistakes is how they became experienced…

 

Very true, we must all strive to make more mistakes.

 

6 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Mikkel I didnt know that you are on WT. 

 Some how I have manage to miss the classics so far this year 

John 

Hi John, I'm just lurking on WT so far. Excellent forum though.

 

2 hours ago, Charlie586 said:

Very nicely built, Mikkel. I never realised how detailed these kits were.

 

Thanks Charlie, yes lots of detail in them. Not for those who dislike mixed media though.

 

[N15class]

I was once told if your not making mistakes your not making anything.

Looking good, I wouldn't fancy painting them, it was hard for me in 7mm. By the way those bicycles will never fit in the guards compartment.

[Mikkel]

Your paint job was superb Pete, I won't be able to get close to that.

 

In fact, this coach will start off in 1908-12 all brown livery, as it will form part of a little historical "re-enactment" that I have in mind. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Mikkel
Typo

[kitpw]

On 08/05/2022 at 11:06, Mikkel said:

one of the splayed supports sticks out and needs cutting off

The instructions in the 7mm version direct that the bracket needs to be modified.  I also wasn't entirely convinced but took the easy way out and, claiming it was 1927 (which at Swan Hill, it always is), left off the central lower footboard  which photos suggest is sometimes the case, even with the bogie footboards not replaced with a steel step. 

 

A nicely built model for sure and I'm already looking forward to the....

44 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

historical "re-enactment"

Kit PW

Edited May 9, 2022 by kitpw
typo (as usual)

[Denbridge]

On 13/04/2022 at 07:06, Mikkel said:

 

Thanks, yes it's good to have some 8'6 bogies out there. I assume they are very light, I wonder if that has any effect.

 

The whitemetal bogies from the 247 Developments range were also an option, but they seem to be discontinued as new ones cannot be cast. 247 have ventured into 3D printing though I see, an interesting development.

 

 

 

I think it's worth saying that the Slaters bogies are not difficult to construct or solder - and that's coming from someone inexperienced with this sort of thing. The issue as I understand it is not that they are hard to construct, but that some modellers have struggled to get reliable running with the method as designed. As mentioned I didn't have the right parts to test the Slaters method, but did try out the springing just to understand the principle, as seen below.

 

 

 

When the kits are reissued they will come with a different design of bogie. 

[Mikkel]

23 minutes ago, kitpw said:

The instructions in the 7mm version direct that the bracket needs to be modified.  I also wasn't entirely convinced but took the easy way out and, claiming it was 1927 (which at Swan Hill, it always is), left off the central lower footboard  which photos suggest is sometimes the case, even with the bogie footboards not replaced with a steel step. 

 

A nicely built model for sure and I'm already looking forward to the....

Kit PW

 

Thanks Kit, that's good to know. I will leave the hangers for the central stepboards as they are then. Don't much fancy moving them anyway! 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

When the kits are reissued they will come with a different design of bogie. 

 

That sounds good and constructive. I'm glad that these are coming back on the market, they deserve more attention. 

 

 

 

[Coal Tank]

I think WT would be very interested in the Farthings

John 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Coal Tank

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

When the kits are reissued they will come with a different design of bogie. 

 

I'd definitely be interested in them. (Said the man with a box full of not quite finished coaches!)

[Regularity]

15 hours ago, Denbridge said:

When the kits are reissued they will come with a different design of bogie. 

 

13 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

I'd definitely be interested in them. (Said the man with a box full of not quite finished coaches!)

Because they await 8’6” bogies?

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

 

Because they await 8’6” bogies?

 

Pretty much!

[Dana Ashdown]

I thought I should repost these two pictures from January 2018 (now lost in the ethers), when you were exploring the liveries as described in the magazines.

 

The mostly unaltered Tri-ang clerestory “composite” represents the experimental 1903 Great Western all-brown livery. (The foot-boards are meant to be unpainted wood, but they come out rather bright in the picture.) At the time, I think we agreed that all-brown was dull but it grows on you. It forms part of my 1904-08 “semi-fast” set (still to be completed), the rest of the carriages being in chocolate and cream. I still have to replace the plastic wheels and add a few details to the bogies. I might do another composite in chocolate and cream at some point, though.

 

 

The second picture is GWR Composite Brake Corridor No.7672 (corridor side), circa 1910, from W.J. Gordon, Our Home Railways, Volume I (Frederick Warne & Company, London, 1910). The coloured plates were by W.J. Stokoe, based on photographs and pictures. Whether the brown is accurate remains to be seen, but it does show how the Toplights were treated. I don’t see any “GWR” initials, but I don’t know if that’s an omission by the artist, or just a difference in livery specifications.

 

 

I see in the Railway Magazine comments from October 1909, that you posted back in 2017, that the 1908 GWR livery was a “red-brown tint,” which Toplight No.7672 does seem to exhibit in the picture. But I think chocolate brown is close enough, given what others have said about the GWR’s experience with the stability 1908 livery colour.

 

Humbrol actually do German Camouflage Red Brown (No.160). The colour on the tin lid looked promising, but I found that the actual hue was more of a medium brown with a hint of red. I did use some to paint the shoes of one of the Gnomes. He liked it, so not a total loss!   

 

Personally, I hope you leave your Slaters 3rd in brown, if only to add a bit of variety. Speaking of variety, the October 1909 Railway Magazine also observed that the first “Cunard Special,” connecting with Mauretania and Lusitania at Fishguard, was made up with a mixture of chocolate and cream and all-brown carriages.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Dana Ashdown
Correcting identity of the paint.

[Mikkel]

Many thanks Dana, nice to see that rendering of the experimental 1903 livery. A first, perhaps?

 

Since you've also posted over in the blog I've responded there:

 

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Mikkel

[WFPettigrew]

On 03/04/2022 at 12:23, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. The smallest ones are just small enough to fit inside a 4 mm scale wagon with an internal width of 7 ft...

 

A very belated reply, but I was inspired by this exchange back in April to buy myself the smallest size of Smart Models corner clamps, and today finally had reason to use them.  (Apologies for anyone offended by a freelance livery wagon, but in my defence it is a pregrouping Glos wagon (a Cambrian kit), destined to go on top of a Brassmasters Glos chassis.)  

Very impressed with the clamps, once I realised that you need to keep the two pairs well apart, they can sniff each other out from an amazing distance, and come together with such velocity that whatever was clamped is usually knocked well apart!  

And actually to answer Stephen's point, the smallest ones could almost fit inside a 5' sided thing in 4mm.

 

So thanks Mikkel for the tip, and also @airnimal for the idea of the wedge to stop the wagon sides bowing inwards. 

 

All the best 

 

Neil 

Edited July 10, 2022 by WFPettigrew
Photo didn't upload first time

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

A very belated reply, but I was inspired by this exchange back in April to buy myself the smallest size of Smart Models corner clamps, and today finally had reason to use them.  (Apologies for anyone offended by a freelance livery wagon, but in my defence it is a pregrouping Glos wagon (a Cambrian kit), destined to go on top of a Brassmasters Glos chassis.)  

 

Very impressed with the clamps, once I realised that you need to keep the two pairs well apart, they can sniff each other out from an amazing distance, and come together with such velocity that whatever was clamped is usually knocked well apart!  

And actually to answer Stephen's point, the smallest ones could almost fit inside a 5' sided thing in 4mm.

 

So thanks Mikkel for the tip, and also @airnimal for the idea of the wedge to stop the wagon sides bowing inwards. 

 

All the best 

 

Neil 

 

I did buy myself a set of the small and the medium sized ones but so far I've used them when making a card building, not yet for rolling stock. I threw the boxes away but very quickly got them back out of the bin! loose in the toolbox, the clamps are a menace.

[Schooner]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the cla umps

 

...my experience, anyway!