Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Brassey]

When did traction engines come into regular use, they would have driven the bailers.  I will check but not tonight.

 

Traction engines appeared in yards in the 1900's.  Note the early car in the centre:

 

[Donw]

I think you will find from about the 1870s machines were invented that would tie the loose straw or hay into bundles. The first machine to produce the compressed square bales seems to have been 1936. Of course the use of the machines would have spread slowly. I suspect that many farms were still collecting the loose hay up to WWI. 

Don

[BG John]

"Straw-bale construction was greatly facilitated by the mechanical hay baler, which was invented in the 1850s and was widespread by the 1890s.^"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw-bale_construction

[The Stationmaster]

I think you will find from about the 1870s machines were invented that would tie the loose straw or hay into bundles. The first machine to produce the compressed square bales seems to have been 1936. Of course the use of the machines would have spread slowly. I suspect that many farms were still collecting the loose hay up to WWI. 

Don

 

Many farms were still collecting loose hay into the 1950s.  My grandfather didn't acquire a (secondhand) bailer until well into the '50s although he had had some contract bailing done before then for straw although he didn't bother much with hay anyway.   Easy to forget that many smaller farms were still using horse well into the '50s and the various other forms of mechanisation beyond various cutting machines and binders (for cutting and binding grain also didn't spread to many smaller farms until the late '50s although contractors were in the market with things like combine harvesters by then.

[Re6/6]

I can concur with that Mike.

 

My grandfather used to gather hay loose and built hay ricks (stacks) using pitch forks until he bought a baler to go with his little grey Fergy T20 running on TVO fuel  It had to be started on petrol and then switched over!

 

Also muck spreading was done by hand from a tipping trailer full of it swilling around. I remember falling into it once when l was about eight! He then bought a muck spreader. I also fell into the sheep dip whilst 'helping'. All that lovely poisonous organophosphate. I'm still breathing in and out though!

 

P.S. No 'nanny state/HSE' back then!

Edited January 16, 2017 by Re6/6

[Miss Prism]

The new iron mink in its base coat, ready for toning down and weathering. Not everyone will agree with the grey W-irons etc, and I admit I could be fighting a loosing battle on that one, but I haven't given up yet.

 

You might like to see an update to http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html, Mikkel.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

You might like to see an update to http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html, Mikkel.

 

As you're getting on with some updates you might as well do the much needed one on this page where the caption to the peculiarly misdescribed ground disc at Croes Newydd needs to be 'sorted'  (seems someone was a bit confused by the mucky state of the signal when they came up with that caption) there being no such thing, especially in that situation, as 'a distant ground signal'.

[Mikkel]

You might like to see an update to http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html, Mikkel.

 

 If that is in fact the original red paint, then this is sensational news!  Especially because it potentially confirms two things -  ie (i) that red was still used in 1900, and (ii) that it was used on and below the solebars too.

 

So what are the possible other explanatations?

 

That a red basecoat/primer was used below the grey?

Some sort of chemical reaction of a colour that was originally different?

I don't suppose preservation work itself has anything to do with it? 

[Miss Prism]

Sorry Mike, my mistake (an error in correspondence, and I got hold of the wrong end of the stick!). Pic now simply says 'disc'.

 

If there are other pictorial contributions on GWR ground signals, I will be delighted to receive them.

 

(Tim V's page on normal signals coming up soon.)

[Bulwell Hall]

I can concur with that Mike.

 

My grandfather used to gather hay loose and built hay ricks (stacks) using pitch forks until he bought a baler to go with his little grey Fergy T20 running on TVO fuel  It had to be started on petrol and then switched over!

 

Also muck spreading was done by hand from a tipping trailer full of it swilling around. I remember falling into it once when l was about eight! He then bought a muck spreader. I also fell into the sheep dip whilst 'helping'. All that lovely poisonous organophosphate. I'm still breathing in and out though!

 

P.S. No 'nanny state/HSE' back then!

 

Maybe there wasn't a 'nanny state' and no HSE back in 'the good old days' but the accident rate on farms was horrendous - as it was in factories, on building sites, on the railways etc.

[Miss Prism]

That a red basecoat/primer was used below the grey?

 

Possibly. We don't know what the painting practice was in that era.

 

Some sort of chemical reaction of a colour that was originally different?

 

Unlikely, in my opinion.

 

I don't suppose preservation work itself has anything to do with it?

 

Possibly.

 

[Donw]

Red Lead primer was fairly common.

Don

[uax6]

Tom Rolt describes how he became the expert for reaper-binders in the vale of the white horse in the first years of WW2. He went to the factory on a course to learn about them, and was basically used as labour to construct the imported machines, every bit apart from the binder, which was the bit you needed to know about. That bit came pre-assembled and was just bolted into place. He came away knowing no more about it.

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

I'm a little confused here. What ropes are we talking about? The ones fixed to eyelets in the sheets, or different ones used to tie down the loads themselves? 

 

That's a question. The ropes discussed in the Essery article are certainly ones used for securing loads, whether sheeted or otherwise. I think I'd been assuming the same ropes would be used to tie down the sheets but on closer reading, Essery quotes an LMS Magazine article of 1925. After describing some of the colourful markings of pre-grouping sheets, "Now, however, all the group sheets are standardised and bear no other identification marks than the initial letters LMS and number. The month of year and issue is shown in two corners, while the opposite corners are post-dated, indicating the date the sheet should be sent into depot for redressing. The standard sheet measures 21ft by 14ft 4in. After painting and stringing (the latter operation consisting of knotting 16 manila cords, tar dipped, through the ringholes), the sheets are again hauled up for the paint to dry until required for traffic."

 

There's a photo of sheets hung up for repair - the lengths of rope hanging down are very knotted and raggy and perhaps at most 6ft long. The issue date appears written fraction-wise e.g. 11 over 26 on the right-hand end of each long side, the best-before date in the same style in red at the left-hand end - and of course doesn't show up in photos. 

 

Also, the beautifully-illustrated instructions on how to fold a wagon sheet total ignore the knotty problem of what to do with the ropes - but anyone who has had to pack a tent back into its just-too-small bag will be familiar with this omission.

 

Does this mean I should take three threads of cotton, one red, one white and one green and twist them?  They would probably need gluing with something to keep them together.  Cut to lengths with a pieces of masking tape or similar in the middle to act as the ferrule.  The whole lot then weathered.  (Corblimmey guvnor you must be 'avin a larf.-  or was that on anuver fred?)

 

Hum... what's not clear is how many strands to a rope. But I assume these coloured strands are just two or three among perhaps a dozen?

 

More on sheets from our Great Northern friend, who was writing in the March 1904 number of the Railway Magazine:

 

"As with ropes, each sheet is numbered, and each railway has its distinctive designs. The Midland has a yellow border with a white Maltese Cross at each corner. The Great Northern, a blue and white stripe from corner to corner. The London and North Western, a red cross. The North Staffordshire, the ubiquitous knot. The Lancashire and Youkshire, red and white stripes, and so on. At the present time each sheet is worth about 40s. Traders are not charged for the use of sheets , except when used to cover lime, etc., or a cattle wagon, when 1s each sheet is charged; neither is the same arrangement adopted as in the case of ropes. Every station, however, keeps a record of arrival and departure of all sheets, and a return is rendered to the Railway Clearing House weekly, of all 'foreign' sheets dealt with. Railways are allowed a stated time to return 'foreign' sheets received, failing which a demurrage charge of 6d. for the first day and 1s. for each day after is incurred.

"With the exception of registering the sheets, these transactions are performed by the Railway Clearing House, who advise the delinquent railway, so that cases of detention may be taken up with the offending station." 

 

As a trainee teacher, I find there's something rather satisfying about that last sentence. The Great Northern man's main interest is sacks. (That's SACKS - stop sniggering at the back - yes you, boy!) 

 

Apologies for having mentioned hay, by the way.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

Red Lead primer was fairly common.

 

And there's the problem - there's no real difference between red primer and 'wagon red'.

[Donw]

And there's the problem - there's no real difference between red primer and 'wagon red'.

 

I would say primers and undercoats dry to a matt finish for better adhesion of the next coat. Top coats dry to a more glossy coat for better weathering as well as appearance.

Almost impossible to tell under numerous layers.

 

Don

[Mikkel]

After painting and stringing (the latter operation consisting of knotting 16 manila cords, tar dipped, through the ringholes)

 

Good to have some further vocabulary on this, thanks! Photos of GWR sheets show the same number of cords by the way (ie 16). But the more GWR photos I look at, the more it becomes clear that this company was fond of using the 3 inner eyelets instead of the outer ones. That's significant when modelling the cords, as they are drawn from much higher up on the sheet.

 

 

The issue date appears written fraction-wise e.g. 11 over 26 on the right-hand end of each long side, the best-before date in the same style in red at the left-hand end - and of course doesn't show up in photos.

 

Looks like the companies had different practices regarding the dates. On the GWR, the sheet date (the visible one) signified the latest date of maintenance - at least according to my trusty GWR Goods Services 2A.

[Compound2632]

Good to have some further vocabulary on this, thanks! Photos of GWR sheets show the same number of cords by the way (ie 16). But the more GWR photos I look at, the more it becomes clear that this company was fond of using the 3 inner eyelets instead of the outer ones. That's significant when modelling the cords, as they are drawn from much higher up on the sheet.

 

 

 

Looks like the companies had different practices regarding the dates. On the GWR, the sheet date (the visible one) signified the latest date of maintenance - at least according to my trusty GWR Goods Services 2A.

 

I think that's the same thing - the figures in white are the last repair date, which the LMS called the 'issue date' - i.e. back into use after overhaul. I think photos show using the inner ringholes was commonplace unless the load was quite tall.

 

I tried borrowing GWR Goods Services 2A but my local Great Western expert said he'd lost the will to live after the introductory volume - no stamina, some people!

[Mikkel]

I think that's the same thing - the figures in white are the last repair date, which the LMS called the 'issue date' - i.e. back into use after overhaul. I think photos show using the inner ringholes was commonplace unless the load was quite tall.

 

I tried borrowing GWR Goods Services 2A but my local Great Western expert said he'd lost the will to live after the introductory volume - no stamina, some people!

 

I have heard that the introductory volume is quite wordy (the others are very well illustrated). It's still on my want list though. 

 

So are these two btw. GWR goods operations are becoming quite well covered in the literature by now. But the Essery books on the MR/LMS must be a real treat too! 

[Dave John]

I have been involved in a number of restoration projects for historic buildings and I have seen experts trace layers of paint back to the original. It is highly skilled and painstaking work. 

 

http://www.cottiers.com/uploaded/2011/04/restoration.pdf

 

So I find all the paint sampling of historic railway wagons very interesting, amazing what the careful use of a scalpel reveals. I used the techniques I had learned from the experts to have a go at paint sampling on the balustrade of Benalder St bridge , from which I concluded that it had been painted mid grey three times. Oh,  and some whitewash underneath for the blackout. 

 

Anyway, I'm following all this with interest. 

[K14]

You might like to see an update to http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html, Mikkel.

 

Sad to say, you'll be needing to edit that...

 

So what are the possible other explanations?

 

That a red basecoat/primer was used below the grey?

Yes, see below.

 

I don't suppose preservation work itself has anything to do with it?

Back of the net!

 

Sadly, it ain't so (although I wish it was). 11152 was subject to a pretty comprehensive repair at Didcot in the late 80s, so was 'bare metalled'.

 

Work done included:-

 

Cutting off 12-18" of the roof at the eaves & welding/riveting new 1/4" plate,

Chopping approx 2 feet off the bottom of the ends & scrapping most of the bodyside panels then welding/riveting in new plate (actually 16 swg coach tin as that was all that was available - tap it & it goes 'boing'),

New doors, and,

Replacing the floor with 3" of concrete so it could be used for oily greasy things like crane bits.

 

The underframe was thoroughly needle-gunned too.

 

Paint spec back then was (IIRC):

1 coat 'Manders' Red Oxide

1-2 coats grey undercoat

2 topcoats (Blue)

Signwriting - 'Salvage Save For Victory' & bogus number 47305

Chassis - 1 coat extra thick B.R. spec 'Chassis' black.

 

In the late 90s it was repainted into FS Grey with 25" GW, & repainted again c.2013 still in FSG but with the smaller 'G.W.R' branding. Each time it received a heavy sanding, but enough of its post-rebuild paint history should remain for future archaeologists to puzzle over.

 

As to the wheels... the odds of 11152 retaining its original wheelsets/boxes/brasses/springs are so tiny they're probably quantum. That said, one of my early tasks at Didcot was to re-instate the brake rigging on Tevan 79933 & repaint the underframe while I was at it. One of the wheelsets has a tyre date of (I think) 1917 & cleaning up in the roots of the spokes with an angle grinder revealed that the Factory method of painting wheels was a coat (or two) of Red Lead followed by a generous application of hot tar. The inner sections of underframe seemed to have been toshed over with Red Lead & then ignored for 70 years.

 

Likely candidates for survival? Not many I fear. Doubtless there are other contenders out there, but most will have had any original paint restored out of existence a long while ago. Look for examples with getting on for 1/4" of paint on them & you *might* get lucky.

 

Fruit 47886/2356 (1892) is a maybe as I'm not certain if the underframe has ever been stripped right back. Even if it hasn't, it'll have to keep until it next gets scheduled for attention (whenever that might be). I suspect that the Mites 32337/8 may harbour information, but there are a lot of Chatham Dockyard mods on them, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

Pete S.

C&W Dept.,

GWS Didcot.

 

Apologies to anyone following MikeOxon's blog entry, as you'll have now read this twice

Edited January 17, 2017 by K14

[Miss Prism]

Sad to say, you'll be needing to edit that...

 

Yes. I feared I might. I will break the news to my contributor. Thanks, Pete.

[Mikkel]

I have been involved in a number of restoration projects for historic buildings and I have seen experts trace layers of paint back to the original. It is highly skilled and painstaking work. 

 

http://www.cottiers.com/uploaded/2011/04/restoration.pdf

 

[snip]

 

I noted this in your link: "research concentrated on investigating the precise colour content, and determining the solubility of intervening layers". Wouldn't it be interesting to have such experts go over an old GWR wagon in detail. If only society had unlimited resources!

 

 

Sad to say, you'll be needing to edit that...

 

[snip]

 

Ah well, it was exciting while it lasted. Some people get an adrenaline kick from bungee jumping, while others... 

 

Thanks for the extensive information Pete. It's good to know that the GWS have the topic in mind when working on the goods stock. There are enough things for you to consider already during every step of a preservation project.

[MikeOxon]

.........................Ah well, it was exciting while it lasted. Some people get an adrenaline kick from bungee jumping, while others... 

 

Thanks for the extensive information Pete. It's good to know that the GWS have the topic in mind when working on the goods stock. There are enough things for you to consider already during every step of a preservation project.

I was going to make exactly the same comment.  Some people must think we are very sad individuals, to get excited by such things.  I also echo your thanks to Pete..

 

I had picked this up in my blog, so have added a note there, too, to damp down any further excitement

[Mikkel]

 Some people must think we are very sad individuals, to get excited by such things. 

 

Whereas suits crowding around luxury cars in airport displays are cool?