Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Dave John]

The early board of trade requirement was to have a "break-vehicle" every three or four coaches in a train. Each would have breakman. 

 

So part of the incentive for the development of continuous brakes was economic, you could run a train with fewer paid staff. ( Yep, as ever, money was the imperitive. ) 

[Compound2632]

I suspect that in the 1880s the cost of fitting and maintaining the continuous brake greatly exceeded the cost of employing the brakesmen...

[Donw]

Even though it ought to have been the case that railway managements who consider the death of passengers as bad for business it took the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 which gave the Board of Trade the Authority to require continuous automatic brakes on passenger trains ( also Block signalling and interlocking of points and signals). Implementation took place over a number of years. The Act was passed after the Armagh disaster which was so serious it gave the impetus to get the act passed it took just over 6 weeks for the Act to come into force. 

 

Don

[Mikkel]

This discussion prompted me to re-read Churchward's 1896 lecture at the GWR Mechanic's Institution (Russel's GWR coaches vol 1 p 77ff). Continuous brakes do seem to have been considered a very costly exercise:

 

"Continuous Brakes. This has been in past times one of the most burning questions in railway working, but after the exercise of much ingenuity and the expenditure of vast sums of money, there are now only two systems left on express trains in this country. These are the vacuum automatic and the Westinghouse automatic".

 

I didn't know that some companies used both types:

 

"In this country, the vacuum brake is more generally employed than the Westinghouse, while some companies, for purposes of interchange, have fitted a portion of their stock with both brakes."

 

I like his description of emergency brakes, so simple that even I can understand it: 

 

"Applying Brakes in Cases of Emergency. For many years the idea of allowing passengers to apply the continuous brakes in cases of emergency received a very general opposition. Now that high speeds and very long runs between stops are becoming so general it is felt to be necessary to provide some means by which a passenger may, in case of  a mishap, be enabled to apply the brakes gradually. On the Great Western Railway, a small spring valve has been fitted on the brake pipes at the ends of carriages. This valve may be opened by pulling a wire which runs along under the cornice of the roof, and air is thus admitted to the train pipe. The diameter of the air inlet is only 5/8", so that the application of brakes is gradual."

[Miss Prism]

Quite a lot of GWR NCCPS was dual-fitted (vacuum and Westinghouse), primarily Horse boxes, some of the Fruits (Y2 and Y3 in particular), some Siphons (O8 and O9, and I think a few O2/O3/O4/O5/O6). This enabled them to interwork with the LBSCR and GER, which was important for horse box traffic (Epsom, Newmarket etc).

 

Not sure when the Westinghouse gear started to appear on GWR NPCCS, possibly 1906 (as a wild guess!). Generally, I think it had been removed by c 1931.

[Mikkel]

Quite a lot of GWR NCCPS was dual-fitted (vacuum and Westinghouse), primarily Horse boxes, some of the Fruits (Y2 and Y3 in particular), some Siphons (O8 and O9, and I think a few O2/O3/O4/O5/O6). This enabled them to interwork with the LBSCR and GER, which was important for horse box traffic (Epsom, Newmarket etc).

 

Now that is interesting, especially the bit about horsebox traffic workings between the GWR and LBSCR for Epsom. I wonder where the GWR horseboxes were exchanged, somewhere on the West London Extension maybe?

 

Not sure when the Westinghouse gear started to appear on GWR NPCCS, possibly 1906 (as a wild guess!). Generally, I think it had been removed by c 1931.

 

Churchward does not mention whether the GWR is among the companies using dual fitted stock in his 1896 lecture. I searched the web but haven't found anything yet.

 

I did however find several other interesting lectures from the GWR Mechanical Institute on the KESR website, and so my commute today was spent reading early 1920s papers on "Brakes for Modern Passenger Trains" and "Brakes for Long Goods Trains":

 

http://kesr-mic.org.uk/9.html

 

The one on passenger trains was particularly interesting I thought, with it's discussion of the Vacuum and Westinghouse brakes, and the challenges of braking passenger trains in general. I especially liked the "Discussion" towards the end. 

[Miss Prism]

I wonder where the GWR horseboxes were exchanged, somewhere on the West London Extension maybe?

 

'Exchanged'? I don't understand you, Mikkel.

[Nick Holliday]

'Exchanged'? I don't understand you, Mikkel.

Generally goods traffic from foreign lines to the Brighton was exchanged at Lillie Bridge, for GWR & LNWR, Battersea for Midland and GNR, via Snow Hill, New Cross for GER using the East London Railway. Vehicles were also transferred at Redhill from the GWR at Reading, and SECR workings.

However, when there were races on somewhere on the Brighton system, the number of boxes expected usually warranted special trains, and one was timetabled to pick up an entire GWR horse box train at Kensington, and a Brigthon vacuum fitted loco was allocated for this working. I also recall reading, but I can't recall where, instances when GWR locos continued as far south as Redhill with their trains.

[Graham456]

I suspect that in the 1880s the cost of fitting and maintaining the continuous brake greatly exceeded the cost of employing the brakesmen...

Well yes in the short term, but over the life time of thirty years for a stock that wage bill would sure mount up in evcess of the cost of fitting continuous brakes

But the main reason for fitting brakes would of course being forced to By the board of trade and haveing had a few runaway Armagh type problems

Edited February 8, 2017 by Graham456

[Nick Holliday]

Probably the most comprehensive and lucid account on coaching stock brakes is in Mike Williams' superb volume on Caledonian Coaches. At eleven pages long it is impossible to précis it here. It is a very balanced account. Although the CR eventually settled on the superior Westinghouse brake it went through extensive trials to get to that decision. They also had to accommodate their operating ally, the LNWR, who parsimoniously followed the cheapest options, sticking with the less than perfect Clark and Webb chain brake for too long, and then eventually adopting the cheaper vacuum brake. The unfortunate Caledonian had to pander to their neighbour, fitting both types to some of their stock, so that through trains could be run.

[Northroader]

I think in the case of the LNWR, there's a story that Mr. George? Westinghouse came to Crewe pushing air brakes, but unfortunately using American sales techniques, told Francis Webb that he would qualify for a commission for every one fitted. This of course impugned Webbs integrity in acting as the Railways engineer, and Westinghouse was very nearly slung out on his ear. No air brakes at Crewe. Whether Westinghouse learnt from this in approaching other Railways, or kept to the same tactics, I couldn't say.

[Craigw]

Quite a lot of GWR NCCPS was dual-fitted (vacuum and Westinghouse), primarily Horse boxes, some of the Fruits (Y2 and Y3 in particular), some Siphons (O8 and O9, and I think a few O2/O3/O4/O5/O6). This enabled them to interwork with the LBSCR and GER, which was important for horse box traffic (Epsom, Newmarket etc).

 

Not sure when the Westinghouse gear started to appear on GWR NPCCS, possibly 1906 (as a wild guess!). Generally, I think it had been removed by c 1931.

 

Do you know if they were just Westinghouse through pipe fitted or had actual WH brake as well? This is mentioned in the D&S instructions but I have not noticed and WH brake components at all. any ideas ?

 

regards,

 

Craig W

[Nick Holliday]

More critically, Webb surely had the patent for the chain brake, so he was receiving a commission for every one fitted. Perhaps he gave his part of the royalties to charity.

[Miss Prism]

Do you know if they were just Westinghouse through pipe fitted or had actual WH brake as well? This is mentioned in the D&S instructions but I have not noticed and WH brake components at all. any ideas?

 

I stand to be corrected, but as far as I know, if a GWR NPCCS vehicle was 'Westinghouse fitted', then it did have actual WH gear. I have yet to see a decent diagram showing exactly what or where it was, but I think it was a comparatively small cylinder tucked up under the underframe. I used some dimensions from the drawing on page 142 of Great Western Coaches Part 1, but to and to all intents and purposes, the cylinder was not really visible (from a vehicle side view). I have no idea how it was connected to the rest of the brake gear linkages (vacuum and, where fitted, hand). D&S kits tend to be somewhat 'simplified' in the brake gear area anyway. The Perseverance Y2 has full DCIII vacuum and hand clasp-brakes, and that is nightmare enough! Pragmatically, the only real manifestation of the WH brake is the characteristic pipe on the ends of the vehicle, and they tend to be taller and thinner* than a normal vacuum pipe. Steam, vacuum and Westinghouse pipes make headstocks quite busy.

 

I think the SDJR and MR used Westinghouse as well?

 

 

* I seem to remember using 0.8mm

Edited February 8, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Mikkel]

'Exchanged'? I don't understand you, Mikkel.

 

I meant at what location did GWR horseboxes destined for Epsom Downs stop being pulled by a GWR loco and start being pulled by an LBSCR loco. 

 

 

Generally goods traffic from foreign lines to the Brighton was exchanged at Lillie Bridge, for GWR & LNWR, Battersea for Midland and GNR, via Snow Hill, New Cross for GER using the East London Railway. Vehicles were also transferred at Redhill from the GWR at Reading, and SECR workings.

However, when there were races on somewhere on the Brighton system, the number of boxes expected usually warranted special trains, and one was timetabled to pick up an entire GWR horse box train at Kensington, and a Brigthon vacuum fitted loco was allocated for this working. I also recall reading, but I can't recall where, instances when GWR locos continued as far south as Redhill with their trains.

 

Thanks very much Nick, that is exactly what I was wondering about - and what fascinating information! Imagine an LBSCR loco in marsh umber pulling a train of GWR horseboxes. I'm getting all misty eyed    Yet another reason to model the West London Extension one fine day! 

[Dave John]

Heh, I do apologise Mikkel, folk dive in and get involved. I am as guilty as the rest, if not more so.  Nick Holliday sums it up well on two counts:  Firstly the recognition that the westinghouse brake was by far the best continuous brake available, and secondly that Mike Williams book is the best researched account available. Anyone up for modelling the Steel-McInnes brake ? 

[Mikkel]

Heh, I do apologise Mikkel, folk dive in and get involved. I am as guilty as the rest, if not more so.  Nick Holliday sums it up well on two counts:  Firstly the recognition that the westinghouse brake was by far the best continuous brake available, and secondly that Mike Williams book is the best researched account available. Anyone up for modelling the Steel-McInnes brake ? 

 

Getting involved is what a forum is about! 

 

But unfortunately the dicussion has brought  the ghosts of 8 angry men to my door, outraged at the absurd assertion that the Westinghouse brake was best. In the 1921 paper on "Brakes for Modern Passenger Trains" that I linked to above, the Chairman - a certain Mr F.W. Hawksworth - closes the discussion as follows:

 

"In closing the discussion the Chairman said that though the Great Western Railway was the only Railway Company running with 25in., this was really due to the fact that no one else had got an ejector which would create that Vacuum, and as the result of experiments carried out by the G.W.R. Technical Staff, the present Vacuum Brake, as fitted by the G.W.R. Company, was far superior to any other vacuum brake fitted by a Railway Company or put on the market by a commercial firm."

 

Presented with this entirely unbiased view, I expect you will all have seen the light.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Mikkel

[Worsdell forever]

'Superior to any other vacuum brake'... No mention of how superior the Westinghouse air brake was. The NER of course used the Westinghouse brake.

[Stubby47]

'Superior to any other vacuum brake'... No mention of how superior the Westinghouse air brake was. The NER of course used the Westinghouse brake.

 

Not surprised with the sort of hills you're recreating.

[Mikkel]

'Superior to any other vacuum brake'... No mention of how superior the Westinghouse air brake was. The NER of course used the Westinghouse brake.

Ah yes, good point. Hawksworth chose his words carefully there!

[Penlan]

Presented with this entirely unbiased view, I expect you will all have seen the light.

With a 25" vacuum, more likely a 'black hole'    

[Jol Wilkinson]

More critically, Webb surely had the patent for the chain brake, so he was receiving a commission for every one fitted. Perhaps he gave his part of the royalties to charity.

Webb worked for the LNWR, where economy and hence the ability to pay the stockholders large dividends, were a major consideration. With a large fleet, it is hardly surprising that they sought the lower cost options, although the Chain Brake should never have been used for so long. Although the simple vacuum brake is spoken of rather disdainfully, the LNWR ran quite demanding schedules with it, so it wasn't that bad.

 

The LNWR built West Coast Joint Stock carriages were dual fitted to accommodate the CR, although I imagine they were charged for it.

[Miss Prism]

I believe the Saturdays-only Lambourne to Wincanton horsebox trains occasionally changed engines at Farthing Junction, Mikkel.

[DonB]

I believe the Saturdays-only Lambourne to Wincanton horsebox trains occasionally changed engines at Farthing Junction, Mikkel.

 

The Jockey Club rather frowned on this practice since they became aware of the time taken for the engine change being used by the Farthing Bookmakers "runners" as an opportunity  to gather Inside Information on the nags, er, thoroughbred horses destined for the races.  

An edict was issued banning all stable hands, grooms and jockeys from alighting at Farthing or communing with the agents of the Bookmakers... More honoured in the breach it is believed.......

 

(This information vouchsafed by my Paternal Grandfather whose interest lay in having a wife, nine children and three bookmakers to support !)  

[MikeOxon]

The Jockey Club rather frowned on this practice since they became aware of the time taken for the engine change being used by the Farthing Bookmakers "runners" as an opportunity  to gather Inside Information on the nags, er, thoroughbred horses destined for the races.  

An edict was issued banning all stable hands, grooms and jockeys from alighting at Farthing or communing with the agents of the Bookmakers... More honoured in the breach it is believed.......

 

(This information vouchsafed by my Paternal Grandfather whose interest lay in having a wife, nine children and three bookmakers to support !)  

This sounds like the sort of thing in which Charles R.Dixon might get involved.  We need the full story from Mikkel