Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[bgman]

Whereas suits crowding around luxury cars in airport displays are cool? 

Not totally true Mikkel .....

 

 

Yours

Arfer Daley

[Mikkel]

An update from the warzone workbench:
 
Wagons sheets: 
 
I've reached some sort of temporary compromise with these, ie removeable "shells". For those who haven't seen it there are details in my layout blog, which also has the latest intel on GWR wagon red  .

 

 
 
Iron Minks:
 
I thought I had finished my new Iron Mink, then took a last look at a prototype photo and realized that the roof should be full of rivets  .  Felt a bit foolish for never noticing that before - although it's easily missed: None of the 7 drawings in the GWR wagon bible show it, nor do many photos due to light reflecting off the roofs. E.g. compare this and this. 
 
Anyway, during an internet search I then came across these replacement roofs made by MRD. Although marketed for the (slightly incorrect) Ratio Iron Mink kit, the roofs are supposedly to scale and so will also fit the ABS kit.


 
 The rivets along the edges are done for you, but there should also be two rows of rivets across each roof band. These are supposed to be pressed out from the underside, by way of very small pre-made indentations on the underside:


 
As you can see, that went very really well 


 
Either the indentments don't align with the roof bands, or my eyesight is failing. I have seen a positive review elsewhere, so maybe I botched it. After several failed attempts I decided to get on with life, and simply applied a single row of Archer's transfer rivets on each band.


 
 
The existing plain roof was then replaced with the new one. Not a perfect result but at least it indicates the presence of rivets.


 

My other Iron Mink was then similarly treated, and here they are side by side. One with grease axle boxes and a 9 ton rating (a modification of the original kit), and one with oil axle boxes and a 10 ton rating. Just need to add Sprat & Winkles to the new one now.

 

 

[Stubby47]

You could always add a tarp to one of the vans, to indicate a leaking roof.

[jim.snowdon]

Unlikely on an iron Mink, though. The iron roofs reputedly stayed watertight, unlike the traditional arrangement of wooden boards covered in canvas and sealed with paint. The latter roof construction does not stand up well to the racking stresses imposed by any twisting of the wagon body in response to track irregularities, with the result that cracks, and leaks, can develop between the boards.

 

Jim

[Stubby47]

Unlikely on an iron Mink, though. The iron roofs reputedly stayed watertight, unlike the traditional arrangement of wooden boards covered in canvas and sealed with paint. The latter roof construction does not stand up well to the racking stresses imposed by any twisting of the wagon body in response to track irregularities, with the result that cracks, and leaks, can develop between the boards.

 

Jim

 

Agreed, I should have been more explicit in that I meant any other van, not the minks.

[Mikkel]

Good idea and good info, thanks gents. I have a V5 van which is looking poorly and could do with a tarp. It would be an opportunity to try out the cling-film technique shown in a youtube video that I found the other day.

 

Meanwhile on the subject of Iron Minks, this one seems to only have rivets on the roof bands, not along the edges. I wonder what that is all about. I'm sure it's all in the "All about Iron Minks" book, serves me right for not buying it.

[Penlan]

Unfortunately Mikkel only has one row of rivets.

 

Perhaps we need to think why there are rivets along those 3" wide strips*.

The roof plates are iron or steel plates 4' 2" wide by 8' 6" long and approx 1/8" thick (10 - 12 SWG).

 - which is why the overall length of the van roof is 16' 8".

The plates abut each other under the strips, and therefore there are two rows of 1/2" dia., rivets across the roof.   Thus, one row for edge of each plate... two rows****.
The internal 'L' section roof struts, do not line up with the roof strips, but the side 'T'** and door edge 'L' angles and have 1/2" rivets at the same 3" centres. ***

 

* On the Barry Rly Iron Minks they are shown as both 4" and 3.5" width - All are 3/8" thick.

** The only ones that seem to stand proud are the 5 across the full width of Taff Vale Rly Iron Minks.

*** On the Rhymney Rly Craven built Vans, the mid-panel stanchion on the side had something like a 9" c/c spacing.

**** So many times I see things where modellers just haven't thought it through, why or how.
One that gets me all the time is the unseen telegraph wires between posts that would be chopped in two by signals, etc., etc., - Grumpy mode now switched off.......

 

Rivets just visible in profile!!

 

 

This is one of the early Lots - 33, built in 1894, and the only really clear view of the rivets......

 

 

As Stated above, the Craven Vans for the Rhymney had some different spacings on the side rivets.

 

 

The top of the TVR's internal roof strut rivets can just be seen on the outside of the roof - and yes I've tried to enhance them - they are visible on the ORIGINAL prints, not any digitised ones.
What I don't understand is why they are this way round, as to try and 'close' the rivet within the angle of the 'L' strut that was overall only 2.5" wide (the legs were 5/16" thick), would be more difficult.

 

 

And finally, this is part of TVR drawing showing the different spacings of rivets on the outside strip and the internal roof struts.

Although unsigned, I'm sure it's by R.C.Metcalf, as the style is the same as his other drawings for South Wales Iron Minks.

 

 

The late Roy Miller - One of the Authour's of 'All about .....', - was a member of the West Midlands Area EM Gauge Group back in the 1970's - early 80's, as was the likes of Mike Morton-Lloyd, Roger Carpenter, Tudor Watkins, myself and many who still grace the Expo demonstrators stands at exhibitions these days.
I recall a group of us going though loads of Iron Mink photo's after some of our meetings, scouring for details on Minks, we even had C.C.Green there on one occasion.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

I seem to have waded through a lot of photo's for the above reply and most have been taken at ground level, more or less, the glare of the sky has basically obliterated any roof details, so there maybe some vans that had the rivets peened over on the outside of the roof, and thus from our point of view, 'flush riveted'.  It depends how and where the roofs where assembled

[Donw]

Very useful Penlan. I do have a copy somewhere (everything is still packed awaiting completion of the alterations) but I hadn't quite realised that. I had imagined the join between the sheets was covered by a band top and bottom rivetted togethr to cover the gap. A bit of reflection suggests that the double row riveting the band to the sheets would probably produce a better waterproofing.

 

Oddly I was modelling in EM myself in the early 80s when living at Broseley an although visiting Exhibitions in the West Midlands and being an EM society member never came across the WM EM group. I knew Mike Lloyd later when we had both turned to 0 Gauge.

 

Don

[Penlan]

DonW, Although it was mainly members in the West Midlands, it might have been better described as the North Worcester (shire) area group, made even more obscure by the fact it met in a Village Hall in the tiny Village at Broadwas in Herefordshire - I believe the organiser couldn't travel.  But I'm sure you recognise most, if not all, of the names mentioned. 
I knew Mike well and operated his layout many a time out in the summer sun.
As I'm also a (very early) member of the WRRC,  I obviously had contact with him, and as you will know, Tudor was Mike's close friend - Tudor has also been Best Man at my Wedding(s)... I was living in Malvern in those days.

[DonB]

Showing my Ignorance of GWR Van construction,   --- I was puzzled by the prototype's double row of rivets on both roof and sides,  ---- then the penny dropped! Helpfully the Minks have outside frames showing the basic construction to be of "T" section rivetted through both "legs" 

 

Although there is only a simple overlap of the roof sheets of steel, there must be a (angle iron?) frame spanning the joint/ overlap. Were the double row rivets located through a "T"  section profile as the sides, the single row through a "L" shape with odd length angles ?? An economy measure on later batches?

 

There was a company (The Angle Ring Co. IIRC) in the Tipton / Dudley area which advertised a bespoke service of bent-to-shape steel sections.  I would have thought that the roof frame profiles used by the GWR could have been out-sourced to such a company. Like Mikkel, I really should try to read the book he mentions.

 

(Written before Penlan's post 707 above but called away without posting... Auto Save works! )

[K14]

Showing my Ignorance of GWR Van construction, --- I was puzzled by the prototype's double row of rivets on both roof and sides, ---- then the penny dropped! Helpfully the Minks have outside frames showing the basic construction to be of "T" section rivetted through both "legs"

 

Although there is only a simple overlap of the roof sheets of steel, there must be a (angle iron?) frame spanning the joint/ overlap. Were the double row rivets located through a "T" section profile as the sides, the single row through a "L" shape with odd length angles ?? An economy measure on later batches?

 

This plan of a GW Iron Mink might assist:—

 

 

This is a higher resolution version of the scan in Swindon Engineering Society lecture No. 44 - “Carriage and Wagon Rolling Stock” by F. W. Marillier, read October 27th, 1903.

 

No sign of a jointing/bracing strip on the inside of the roof.

 

There was a company (The Angle Ring Co. IIRC) in the Tipton / Dudley area which advertised a bespoke service of bent-to-shape steel sections. I would have thought that the roof frame profiles used by the GWR could have been out-sourced to such a company. Like Mikkel, I really should try to read the book he mentions.

They might, but it's far more likely that the GW bought in quantities of straight angle direct from the mill & bent it as required (much of the steel angle on the Locos, Carriages & Wagons at Didcot is branded "Earl of Dudley" & more than a few pieces have the company initials and the production date rolled in too).

 

This quote from K.J. Cook's presidential address to the I.Loc.E in 1955 seems apt:

 

"At a period prior to World War II there was a considerable body of industrial opinion who regarded the railway workshops as a collection of primitive and antiquated machines and quite beyond the pale of making any contribution to wartime needs of production. Possibly this arose from the fact that by statute railway workshops have to stand aloof from the outside engineering industry, to deal with their own internal requirements only. The condition of their machine tools was probably well known amongst the machine tool makers who had derived considerable benefit during the slump years from the railways’ practice of keeping equipment up to date, but industry in general and officialdom in particular had a complete misconception of the wide range of capacity necessary to provide for the mechanical and productive needs of a great railway.

 

During World War II the cloak was removed and the railway workshops became open doors to all who wanted help. But it took a little time to pierce the cloud. At the end of exploratory visits by the productive Ministries, the officials began to scratch their heads and exclaim, “We are on the wrong line — we have been looking to find out what you can produce — we should have been seeking what you cannot.”

 

P.

[Northroader]

Hey Don, it used to be said by Dawley folk that people from Broseley had an extra wheel, is this so? As I don't want my supplies of bacon and carlsberg to be cut off, I'd best stick in a picture of a mink. It's an old Oguage white metal kit, afraid I can't remember who by. Looks like I'll have to get the red paint out. No roof rivets either.

[Penlan]

EDIT - Oooops, took so long doing my post that 2 have popped up before me....

 

On the roof is a flat strip 3" wide* by 3/8" thick on top of the roof plates, there is nothing under the roof plates at the position of the outside strip.  Thus DonB, no, there is not 3 layers for the rivets to go through.

 

Inside the roof there are inverted 'L' angle pieces that following the line of the roof across the van, these are 2.5" x 2.5" x 5/16", these are not in line with the flat strips on the roof, but are in line with the side 'T' pieces (those mid-way between the doors and the ends) and edges of the doors. 

 

Now the next Question I can see looming up is "..... what happens at the ends of the vans between the roof and end.

Good Q. because there's no flat strips there - Having said that, the Ex Portland Cement Iron Mink on the Bishops Castle Rly certainly had strips across the ends, though I can't detect how many rows of rivets.

Looking at a photo of GWR Iron Mink No. 57604, there does appear to be a row of rivet heads in the inverted 'L' that runs across the end under the roof, and therefore the rivets would be flush on top of the roof (as well as rivets into the end panel - Belt & Braces for me).

 

 

HOWEVER of the couple of hundred photo's I've looked through just now, I would say just 5 had discernible strips on the roof top at the ends, mainly non-GWR Vans..

* I see on a drawing for the Passenger rated vans, Lot 670, that the roof strips are stated to be 2.5" wide!!! 

.... and in a photo of DW 57575 there appears to be a roof strip at the ends too.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Duplicated post

Edited January 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

K14's copy of an original 'GWR' drawing* is not in the book (Published in 1980 by the HMRS), although there's a couple of drawings that are very similar, though for South Wales companies, the GWR ones in the book are clear, simple drawings, un-attributed, as far as I can see.

 

However, many thanks K14 for the link, an interesting paper.

 

*I assume this could have been available at the time, possibly in OPC's hands,

........but much has come to light in the past 35 years or more, as I well know in a different aspect of railway research. 

 

It all seemed so easy for Mikkel just to pop together a simple Iron Mink kit....

.... and look whats happened, and we haven't even really scratched the surface of Iron Minks yet.
Topic - Pragmatic, ah well then, one meaning is opinionated: relating to matters of fact or practical affairs often to the exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters.....

Edited January 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Mikkel]

Goodness, an entire PhD thesis on Iron Minks has emerged 

 

As mentioned earlier, I was aware of the double row of rivets on each roof band - but opted to go with just one as I know from experience that lining up two rows of rivet transfers immediately next to each other is very tricky (it only takes one stray rivet to make everything look out of alignment).

 

The GWR wagon bible has an explanation for the rivets, will check later and report back.

[Penlan]

The GWR wagon bible has an explanation for the rivets, will check later and report back.

Bible ?

I know some people think it's 'God's Wonderful Railway', but a Bible too ? 

[Penlan]

Goodness, an entire PhD thesis on Iron Minks has emerged      

PhD?  No we haven't started yet, this is still at 'O' level status....    

Edited January 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Mikkel]

Sorry, I promised too much.  I remember reading and explanation of the roof rivets somewhere, but I just can't find it. I thought it was in Atkins, Beard & Tourret, but apparently not. My other books don't seem to say anything either.

 

On a related matter though, have a look at this iron mink rebuild - very tempting to hack up a Ratio kit to make one: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip202.htm

[aberdare]

On a related matter though, have a look at this iron mink rebuild - very tempting to hack up a Ratio kit to make one: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip202.htm

 

Ah Yes, the old compressor van, I have seen this in one of the wagon books and also thought it would make a great model and is on my 'to do' list, however that list seems to grow longer each day and at the rate I model it will probably never get built. It's a bit like the weighing machine calibration van I started a few years ago that lays unfinished in a box somewhere, I can't remember how many rows of rivets I put on that roof so I might have to dig it out.

 

Jim

[Penlan]

On a related matter though, have a look at this iron mink rebuild - very tempting to hack up a Ratio kit to make one: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip202.htm

And there's this view here too, with the chimney packed away.

 

And if that is an Iron Mink at the extreme LH side, there's no 3" wide strip at the roof edge at the end, either.

The two rows of rivets on the roof strips can just be seen too on this Van, not the compressor Van.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Moor Street 

 

[BG John]

 

The van was originally built in 1856 as Iron Mink Van No 2799 with no end vents or roof overhang, but with a central section of the roof that could be opened to allow crane loading. This 'roof door' was removed in 1879 and the van was condemned in 1903.

Where does information like that come from? From what I've managed to find out, there are detailed records of early GWR wagons, but the records from the 1850s or so until the diagram books were produced in the early 1900s no longer exists.

[Compound2632]

I don't think I dare post an iron mink model on here after this...