BG John Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 What livery would clerestory survivors in the 1945-1948 period have been found in? I have a second hand kit/scratch-built C17, E73, D30 & D31 set that I want to repaint. Am I right in saying that clerestory's were put into NPCCS brown (as siphons etc) in the mid to late 1930's that saw them through until they were condemned? Indeed, are the following three coaches in NPCCS brown, or was it a bespoke brown hue? http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1368.htm http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2495.htm http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2494.htm If not, I assume many may have made it to nationalisation in brown and cream shirtbutton or indeed perhaps GWR wartime orange/brown? Moreover, does anyone know if suitable bogies for my above 4 diagrams, together with a complete under-frame set, is currently available from any quarter? Any insight would be welcome. Thanks, CoY Quote from the text with the second photo linked to: "During World War II coaches were painted overall brown and although the Great Western Railway’s distinctive chocolate and cream livery was restored when the war ended, it was clearly not a priority to repaint older stock." Assuming you're after 4mm bogies, this may, or may not, help with finding suitable ones. I'm not sure if any are currently available (as I have more than I need bought many years ago), but it may help trace some. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99048-clerestory-coaches-knowledge-needed-and-other-gwr-ponderings/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1896685 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Looking at volume 1 of Russell, the clerestories pictured post-WW2 are invariably in the overall brown livery. As a bit of an extra complication for Rovex, as most show extensive plating over of the panels (but not to the extent of making the Hornby corridor clerestories any more accurate!) Bogies will be a problem. Even when 247's were available, they had cast on foot boards; not that prevalent or typical by the '30s and probably extinct post-war. I think one might as well stick with the Hornby ones; it will probably be easier to cut foot boards off the plastic bogies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2015 One question on formations that I have been trying and failing to work out for a while now. I have read in a couple of places that post ww2 but before nationalisation the centenarys were taken off the Limited and put into general coaching stock. I have also read that at this time a very common use for them was as part of the Paddington western super mare sets. What I am trying to work out if if these were still operating as fairly uniform sets of centenary coaches, or if it would be a mix with other types. I'm also interested to hear the more exact formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Some information here by Peter Gray. Although not confirmed, he does use the term "set" in relation to the WSM workings so it is possible that they were formed entirely of centenary stock. http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/PETER-GRAY-Coaches-allowed-GWR-tracks/story-15791454-detail/story.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2015 Thanks, sounds promising. I'm looking to build a few coach formations to run on the mainline layout I've been putting together in the garage. A set of Centenarys really appeals... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I was asked to come on here to reply but to be honest I dont know how the GWR used the Centenary stock after the war. All I know is specialised coaches were an embarrassment to the LMS after the war, so maybe the same applied to the GWR. There seemed no point in offering prestige services, often with supplementary fares, when the backlog of trakc maintenance had imposed speed restrictions across the land. Centenaries would have been stored during the conflict and there would be no hurry to refurbish them and get them back into traffic, again if the LMS is anything to go by. They went into general use in BR days, but that carried a rider :- they still carried route-restrictions notices on their solebars and red triangles on the ends due to their extreme width. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I guess 'Castle' might be able to shed a bit of light on that subject, he could well have access to some relevant documents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 If I remember correctly Robert Carroll has recently placed a copy of the GWR CWP for winter 1946-47 in the dropbox of his Yahoo coaching stock group. Taking a peek at that may help. I have seen a photo quite recently captioned so as to infer that the train of Centenary stock is bound for Weston-super-Mare but I'm blest if I can remember where I saw it. Sorry! There are plenty of illustrations of Centenary stock in the company of lesser vehicles and in humbler places. The late Hugh Ballantyne captured one on the line through Cheddar. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 If I remember correctly Robert Carroll has recently placed a copy of the GWR CWP for winter 1946-47 in the dropbox of his Yahoo coaching stock group. Taking a peek at that may help. I have seen a photo quite recently captioned so as to infer that the train of Centenary stock is bound for Weston-super-Mare but I'm blest if I can remember where I saw it. Sorry! Chris There is a Maurice Earley shot in Great Western Scene showing 1000 County of Middlesex hauling a complete rake of Centenaries on a Paddington to Weston Super-Mare train in 1946. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
County of Yorkshire Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Quote from the text with the second photo linked to: "During World War II coaches were painted overall brown and although the Great Western Railway’s distinctive chocolate and cream livery was restored when the war ended, it was clearly not a priority to repaint older stock." Looking at volume 1 of Russell, the clerestories pictured post-WW2 are invariably in the overall brown livery. As a bit of an extra complication for Rovex, as most show extensive plating over of the panels (but not to the extent of making the Hornby corridor clerestories any more accurate!) Can anyone say for certain that this was the same brown as used for NPCCS? Would this be Phoenix Paints P20 'GWR Freight Van Brown'? Regarding Centenaries, I picked up a badly listed but complete BSL Centenary set on Ebay last year for a ridiculously good price, but they have the original beclawat windows and not those as rebuilt. Would anyone endorse using microstrip to form the window frame with sliding vents? How doable would this be? Cheers, CoY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Can anyone say for certain that this was the same brown as used for NPCCS? Would this be Phoenix Paints P20 'GWR Freight Van Brown'? I'd have thought that after going through a war, with a good few years of neglect, pretty much any brown would be near enough, and there would be quite a difference between individual coaches depending on the wear and tear they'd had! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2015 Thanks all, Had a good look through the 1948 Paddington list on the yahoo group, really handy stuff and now have a good selection of formations. I'm guessing the centenary set would be without dining when the working files only list a single diner ( i think I recall correctly that the centenary stock was a dining pair Will order the great western scene in a min... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Regarding Centenaries, I picked up a badly listed but complete BSL Centenary set on Ebay last year for a ridiculously good price, but they have the original beclawat windows and not those as rebuilt. Would anyone endorse using microstrip to form the window frame with sliding vents? How doable would this be? Cheers, CoY It is possible as BSL state in the instructions. Not a fast job. This is is from Slaters microstrip. Alternative, I picked up some original Comet Mk 1 sidse with no tumblehome for a £1 each. Well, unlikely anyone would bother to build them now. I have just cut the brass window frames out of them and fixed them into a BSL Centenary Brake as an experiment and it works well. Old Kitmaster Windows may also work, though I have not tried it. Mike Wiltshire Edit - Couple of shots of a BSL Centenary brake with frames salvaged from Comet sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Had a good look through the 1948 Paddington list on the yahoo group, really handy stuff and now have a good selection of formations. I'm guessing the centenary set would be without dining when the working files only list a single diner ( i think I recall correctly that the centenary stock was a dining pair Yes, the Centenary dining vehicles were a pair. I have seen reference to them being used on the Paddington-Wolverhampton services so it is possible that they were not reunited with the rest of the Centenary stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I'm looking to build a few coach formations to run on the mainline layout I've been putting together in the garage. Chrisf has posted the formation of the 1947 Riviera here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34455-gwr-post-1942-cornish-riviera-stock/?p=365447 It looks easily modelable with mostly RTR stock with only the 1923 dining car proving problematic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted June 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2015 Chrisf has posted the formation of the 1947 Riviera here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34455-gwr-post-1942-cornish-riviera-stock/?p=365447 It looks easily modelable with mostly RTR stock with only the 1923 dining car proving problematic. Thanks for linking to that, a topic that I had missed. (Thanks to Chris for posting it) Just given me an excuse to buy more Hawksworth coaches! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Chrisf has posted the formation of the 1947 Riviera here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34455-gwr-post-1942-cornish-riviera-stock/?p=365447 It looks easily modelable with mostly RTR stock with only the 1923 dining car proving problematic. Again I suggest using images as back up plan. As before Maurice Earley photographed extensively the CRE at Reading West, including during the war (Officially he was the only one allowed to do so!) Page 38/9 of Great Railway Photographers - M.E. shows 4 shots of the CRE. The 1947 shot has a Collett D127 Brake 3rd, 2x Hawksworths, followed by further Collett stock. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 There is a Maurice Earley photo of 1000 on the 5.13 pm Paddington-Weston-super-Mare c1946 in the book 'Collett and Hawksworth Locomotives'. The stock is largely Centenary. This matches the Summer and Winter 1946 carriage workings as the stock can be identified by the unusual number of compartments. This train was more of a semi-fast than an express and no catering car is listed in the formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted June 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 24, 2015 I think one might as well stick with the Hornby ones; it will probably be easier to cut foot boards off the plastic bogies. UPDATE! There is a photo "How To" on my layout page, page 3 (oooh err!) Link is down there VVVVVVVV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Here is a later view of a Centenary dining car in an express: 7013_Cathedrals by Robert Carroll, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Slightly off topic perhaps but related, I am trying to find time to go through my collection of books of Great Western trains trying to identify the type of coach in trains formations. By type of coach I don't mean van third, composite etc, but the make - i.e clerestory, Collett 57ft, dreadnought etc. I haven't got very far so far but I have found a train which included a centenary brake composite (in 1950), the rest of the train looks to be a mixture of Colletts, and one train from the early fifties which appears to include a dreadnought all third. The point of all this is to try and demonstrate the variety of stock in everyday use, which with the advent of the new Hornby Colletts, we as modeller will have more opportunity to replicate than ever before. Dean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I don't think it is off topic at all! Good hunting ... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Some cine filmed in early BR days before the widespread advent of the BR Mk.I shows trains composed almost entirely of Collett high waist stock, which not surprisingly looked very tidy, but it was more often a case of high and low waist stock plus Bars I,II & III Toplights. The 1940s (after the war) was the period when one could see clerestory 'swingers'. As always in modelling, photos shed light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Rovex, can't recall whether you're a (full-bloodied) Great Western or (merely!) a Western Region fan. If the former, the 2 volumes of Great Western in the 1930s are a good shortcut because, at the back, the editors have listed all the coach diagram numbers that they can identify. Goodness knows how they make some of the more distant oblique identifications, but they have the expertise to make the best assessment. I don't know of any other volumes that go to such trouble to identify coaches, as opposed to locomotives. Armed with the diagram number, you can find out what coach type, e.g. Bars II Toplight, steel-bodied toplight etc. I would think Harris's volume the most handy for that. Otherwise, it's probably a case of ploughing through the Russell volumes, familiarising yourself with the appearance of the main types and making your own identification. In the late '30s, the new 'sunshine' stock is particularly easy to pick out in a formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 the 2 volumes of Great Western in the 1930s are a good shortcut because, at the back, the editors have listed all the coach diagram numbers that they can identify. Goodness knows how they make some of the more distant oblique identifications, but they have the expertise to make the best assessment. . It was suggested that they had access to larger, better quality prints, so the details would have been clearer than in the photos in the book (which are still very good). I would second the suggestion of using Harris since his volume has the complete(?) lot lists rather than Russell's rather scattergun approach. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.