Andy Y Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Copyright exists on most items in books, magazines, photographs and electronic media. It is the responsibility of the poster to ensure that placing such items on this forum in no way infringes any such copyright. If any member notices ANY item which may infringe copyright legislation, please bring it to the attention of the OP or contact any moderator or forum administrator as soon as possible so that the item can be removed as a matter of urgency. The Admin team is aware of the conditions governing UK copyright law http://www.copyright...copyryright_law, US copyright law http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/and of the Berne Convention regarding copyright, which permits items to be supplied for 'fair use'; and which provides for, and permits, copying for "limited educational" and "private" use. The act of publishing it on the internet for the whole world to see is neither "Limited educational" use, nor "Private" use. Publishing a link to the material could be construed as pointing someone in the direction of references and therefore "educational", and if someone copies it for their own use that is "Private", and would then fall under the wording of the Berne convention. Whilst we accept that others may interpret the law to mean differently, none of us are lawyers, and in the event of any test case being brought it is Andy and the forum who would be embroiled in time, expense and inconvenience to defend the action - even if it were not successful. We would therefore ask that our position on this is respected. We will act to remove any item that is in breach of copyright as soon as it is reported by the copyright holder or other observer, up until that point we, as administration team, may not be aware that there has been a breach. We will act appropriately and as swiftly as possible to ensure that the matter is resolved. If any recompense is sought by the copyright holder or reproduction fees we would expect that the member who breached copyright to cover any fees or costs. There have been several instances primarily centred around images over the last few months where it is apparent that the rule is not clear enough. Images Firstly, please ensure that the image is taken by you and in itself is not of copyrighted material. If the image was not taken by you or you do not own rights to reproduce that image you must ensure that you have the consent of the image owner to reproduce the image on the forum. If you do have the consent of the owner of the image to reproduce it on here it is customary practice to credit the photographer and/or image owner, this certainly goes a long way to maintaining goodwill and at least ensures that you are not trying to pass off another persons property as your own. Whilst goodwill is present from a number of image owners abuse of this could place me in a difficult legal position or in a position where fees/recompense is due to the owner. The goodwill should be duly treasured and certainly not taken advantage of. Appropriating images from other websites can also fall into the same category but assumptions cannot be made that the owner of the website publishing the image has the right to pass on rights of usage. It is permissible to include a hyperlink to an image hosted elsewhere or the page/site in which the image is included but not to wrap the image in the tags that result in the image displaying here but using the other publisher's bandwidth. This is called hotlinking. Written material Whilst the above also holds true for written material the involvement of a publisher and their rights to the material can also complicate the issue, if in doubt ask the writer/publisher. In light of the above we reserve the right to remove copyrighted material and/or the means by which it has been displayed upon the forum without prior or subsequent reference to the member. Some internet content is published under such licences as to permit its usage or reproduction for certain 'not-for-profit' scenarios, it is the responsibility of the poster to ensure that reference is made to such licence at the time of posting the image. I have found that many owners/publishers are amenable to reproduction, largely without reward, if approached in a responsible manner and often see it as a compliment and a recognition of their work. Useful definitions of copyright and the usage of material is explained here - http://www.copyright...k_copyright_law Copying material for other members. There has been a spate of members asking for copies of articles from magazines which often results in someone offering to copy the article and email it to them. This is also in breach of Copyright Law and we would ask members not to incite others to break the law. Likewise if you agree to copy Copyrighted material for another member you are also breaking the law. This is a practice that we cannot condone and should any members carry on posting in open forum in this manner their posts will be removed without consultation and consideration will be given to what action will be taken against the offending member. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted September 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2009 Regarding copyright, it seems appropriate to ask a question pertaining to the publishing of images of other peoples' property.Ok, it's my photograph,but supposing it's someone else's layout for instance - they might not want that photo published or their efforts publicised. Do they have a veto, be it Joe Bloggs or Network Rail (for instance)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted September 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2009 Regarding copyright, it seems appropriate to ask a question pertaining to the publishing of images of other peoples' property.Ok, it's my photograph,but supposing it's someone else's layout for instance - they might not want that photo published or their efforts publicised. Do they have a veto, be it Joe Bloggs or Network Rail (for instance)? Hi Phil, Generally they don't have a veto if you were standing in a public place when you took the photo. There are restrictions if the picture includes children. It's much better to ask permission if possible. But an exhibition hall is not a public place. In that case you need the permission of the owner, anyone else in the picture, the exhibition manager, and the hall owners. Whether giving you permission to take the photo also gives you permission to publish it -- over to the legal dept. Unless you were paid to take it, it's always your copyright. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 8, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2009 An exhibition hall is highly likely to be determined as a 'public place'. Eg a council leisure/sports centre. The entrance area may be public, if anyone can walk in. But I don't understand how the exhibition hall can be deemed a public place. If it is, how can you charge an admission fee? Generally, a public place is somewhere you can go without hindrance or asking anyone's permission. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I spotted an old (late 50s/early60s) OS map in a charity shop the other day, and I noticed it included many of the now-abandoned stations in my "Forgotten Railways..." thread. I'd love to illustrate my thread with a couple of good examples from this map, but does anyone know how the law stands with regard to scanning and posting parts of such an out-of-date document? It's not as if I would be doing the OS out of any potential business by showing part of what Birmingham used to look like, but I'm mindful of the fact the copyright might extend some way back in time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 I spotted an old (late 50s/early60s) OS map in a charity shop the other day, and I noticed it included many of the now-abandoned stations in my "Forgotten Railways..." thread. I'd love to illustrate my thread with a couple of good examples from this map, but does anyone know how the law stands with regard to scanning and posting parts of such an out-of-date document? It's not as if I would be doing the OS out of any potential business by showing part of what Birmingham used to look like, but I'm mindful of the fact the copyright might extend some way back in time. Steve, This is from the OS web site: Ordnance Survey mapping is protected by virtue of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Our mapping is protected for 50 years from the end of the year in which the map was published. For example, a map dated 1942 would have gone out of copyright on 31 December 1992. http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/yourinforights/copyright/index.html So, as long as the map is dated before 1959 you can reproduce it now. On 1st of January you can use one dated 1959, but no later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 I spotted an old (late 50s/early60s) OS map in a charity shop the other day, and I noticed it included many of the now-abandoned stations in my "Forgotten Railways..." thread. I'd love to illustrate my thread with a couple of good examples from this map, but does anyone know how the law stands with regard to scanning and posting parts of such an out-of-date document? Hi Steve, The rule for OS maps is 50 years. If it's more than 50 years from the publication date, you can copy it freely provided you add a note "Crown Copyright". That currently means anything published before 1959. All the 1" maps on the NPE site are over 50 years old and can be freely used for non-commercial purposes: http://www.npemap.org.uk regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 Steve - there's an online version of the 1inch OS maps here http://www.ponies.me...maps/osmap.html It acts like a Google map in that you can zoom in/out, drag etc. The centre overlay is a modern google map, but this can be ignored by setting the bottom transparancy slider to 100%. you can then use the linking controls on the right to give a link to the area shown - eg http://www.ponies.me...477448269705036 shows central Birmingham. Hope this is of use! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 Martin posted his reply just before I hit "SEND"... All the 1" maps on the NPE site are over 50 years old and can be freely used for non-commercial purposes: http://www.npemap.org.uk regards, Martin. Martin - thanks, I hadn't got that site bookmarked - but I do now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 Martin - thanks, I hadn't got that site bookmarked - but I do now Hi Rich, You're welcome -- and likewise, thanks for your link. For the current Landranger maps, try Anthony Cartmell's site: http://www.fonant.com/osmap.html Full-screen, draggable, no advertising. Excellent search (the search boxes are top left, easily missed at first). Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Interesting stuff, and many thanks to all who replied. The sites linked are most useful, and the 50-year rule is exactly the answer I was looking for. Now to check the date on the map... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Interesting stuff, and many thanks to all who replied. The sites linked are most useful, and the 50-year rule is exactly the answer I was looking for. Now to check the date on the map... I just spoke to Ian Allan Publishing about reproducing something on here that would be of huge interest, and little practical value to them. Or one would have thought... The rule for magazine IPR: 70 years from death of author. Sheeeeesh... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zabdiel Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Those map links are great - I've bookmarked them all. How about creating an "old maps" thread in hints and tips? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 For the current Landranger maps, try Anthony Cartmell's site: http://www.fonant.com/osmap.html Full-screen, draggable, no advertising. Excellent search (the search boxes are top left, easily missed at first). Thanks Martin, I hadn't come across that site before and I have to say it's an excellent tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 The rule for magazine IPR: 70 years from death of author. Sheeeeesh... My understanding of the rule was 70 years. In otherwords, a mans lifetime. So pictures taken after 70 years ago are out of normal copyright, ie : before 1939 now. However, it appears the above mentioned must be correct after all...."Copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work (including a photograph) lasts until 70 years after the death of the author. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 I just spoke to Ian Allan Publishing about reproducing something on here that would be of huge interest, and little practical value to them.? ? Or one would have thought... The rule for magazine IPR: 70 years from death of author.? ? Sheeeeesh...? ? That's entirely correct, the Crown copyright on OS maps is specifically defined as 50 years though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I'll be rabbiting on about the content of the text over in my blog, but the nine troublesome pages set out Beeching's vision for 'British Rail - the new image.' For anyone modelling steam-diesel transition through to immediately pre-sectorisation, this one individual's perspective, as interpreted for us by Brian Haresnape (Modern Railways January 65, pp 26 - 34 inclusive) is essential reading, if the context of our era is important. Such a shame that in the web age we can't explore and discuss this stuff when filesharing in other media is commonplace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zabdiel Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 There's a few points that need clarifying, An exhibition hall is highly likely to be determined as a 'public place'. Eg a council leisure/sports centre. Therefore unless the entry requirements to a/ The venue, b/The exhibition, specifically exclude photography as a condition of entry, then you are able to take photographs and use them as you wish. Photos taken visiting a layout at an individuals house would not be included and no photos or no publishing conditions would be legally binding. You do not need permission to take photos of a layout in a public place. (Common courtesy though should ensure you ask) Which I usually do these day - I've never been refused permission, and it's started a good conversation with a couple of people who were pleased to be asked (which is nice - I'm usually not very good at taking to people I don't know). I post photos on Flickr and release my pictures under a creative Commons license so others can use them if they wish. I've not actually asked anyone if they mind me doing that though - I don't think I'd take many photos if I felt I had to explain all that to everyone. There is a layout I've seen on the circuit in the past year that has wording along the lines of 'No photography, this layout and images are copyright of the builder/owner'. This is a figment of their imagination and/or a lack of understanding of their 'rights'... This part of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 seems to suggest that they might have a point: 1. This section applies to??” a. buildings, and B. sculptures, models for buildings and works of artistic craftsmanship, if permanently situated in a public place or in premises open to the public. 2. The copyright in such a work is not infringed by??” a. making a graphic work representing it, B. making a photograph or film of it, or c. broadcasting or including in a cable programme service a visual image of it. 3. Nor is the copyright infringed by the issue to the public of copies, or the broadcasting or inclusion in a cable programme service, of anything whose making was, by virtue of this section, not an infringement of the copyright. Source I'd say a model railway was a "work of artistic craftsmanship" and they are certainly not permanently situated in a public place. {edit to remove spurious smilies) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 This part of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 seems to suggest that they might have a point: When you say "they" do you mean PMP or the layout builder? If as I suspect you mean the latter, then the text quoted is pretty clear in saying that they don't have a point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I remember going to an exhibition that had "no photography" signs all over the place - I was there when the show opened. Within half an hour, they had all disappeared - obviously someone had, rightly so, created a fuss about it to the exhibition manager. This is a hobby. It is meant to be fun. There's too much "red tape" in the rest of life, and it's not necessary there either. I will take photos of what I like when I like at any exhibition and nobody is going to stop me regardless of what silly signs are put up around the hall. I will also do whatever I want with those photos. Unless you are A damaging someone's income, or B removing any mention of source to claim something as your own, then it's "fair use" as far as I'm concerned. I also happen to strongly disagree with this forum's "copyright policy" as outlined in this thread but don't have much choice but to abide by it if I wish to continue posting here. I've posted over the years on quite a few forums around many subjects and have never come across anything even remotely like it elsewhere. Surely a simple "the forum owners and management team are not responsible for the content posted by its users, if you see anything that violates copyright please let us know and we'll remove it" is more than adequate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 I also happen to strongly disagree with this forum's "copyright policy" as outlined in this thread but don't have much choice but to abide by it if I wish to continue posting here. ? I've posted over the years on quite a few forums around many subjects and have never come across anything even remotely like it elsewhere. ? Surely a simple "the forum owners and management team are not responsible for the content posted by its users, if you see anything that violates copyright please let us know and we'll remove it" is more than adequate? Our copyright policy reflects and respects the law. I make a conscious effort to comply with copyright law (amongst other things), if others choose to ignore it (magazine editors don't - it's an internet thing) that's their call but it doesn't make it right does it? ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Our copyright policy reflects and respects the law. Accepted - but that doesn't mean the law is necessarily right does it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 I will take photos of what I like when I like at any exhibition and nobody is going to stop me regardless of what silly signs are put up around the hall. I will also do whatever I want with those photos. Charming. You sound like a nice guy (NOT) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Accepted - but that doesn't mean the law is necessarily right does it? I take it you'll be offering to underwrite the cost of any legal action that might arise against the forum, then? Nope, thought not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ian Posted December 1, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2009 What is 'right' is very subjective and depends on your viewpoint. Whilst the law can be open to interpretation it does end up defining what is legal and what isn't. Andy has chosen, quite reasonably, to take a stance that puts him firmly on the right side of the law. If you don't wish to play by these rules, then there are forums where you can post what you like and will, I am sure, welcome you. If you wish to post here then please humour Andy, it is his site after all, and stop muttering about his rules. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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