Brass kits - the perennial newbie question!

[bluebottle_uk]

Hello - once again here is a newcomer barging in and demanding access to the stores of wisdom and experience collected here on this forum.

 

So firstly, apologies, I am sorry to be asking what is probably a foolish question, but I have spent hours searching and cannot find a good answer to the problem so here goes:

 

I am looking for a kit to learn how to make brass models. So far the problems I have found with searching for help on this topic are usually that the initial post has been too vague, so I will try to provide as much information as I can to help anyone with suggestions to make for me.

 

1. I have quite a lot of experience with plastic kit building, albeit in Airfix and similar projects.

2. I have done some white-metal kit building for wargame type models.

3. I haven't soldered since prep school CDT (which tells you something, I don't think schools have called it CDT for a long time!).

4. I have never soldered a piece of brass in my life.

5. I am modelling in 00 gauge. I intend to use Peco or similar track so that commercial RTR stuff will be ok as well as kits.

6. I appreciate that this is not an overnight skill to learn, hence the request for a kit to help me learn. I am happy to turn out 10 duff wagons if it assists me in not screwing up my eventual loco build (a High Level 14" RSH incidentally).

7. In terms of what I would like to end up with - any kind of coal wagon or generic goods van is fine. The layout I am building is set in Farnborough, Hampshire between 1955-1968 so I guess anything ex-SR or even potentially LSWR would be suitable. I am also open to suggestions which include GWR and LMS in the 30's since I have plans for a layout in that era. I have also read that 4-wheel coaches are a reasonable start for beginners so I guess GW or LMS would fit there? My problem is which producers have kits with comprehensible instructions and all the necessary parts (bar paint!) but failing that, with the minimum of other bits to be found elsewhere (wheels etc?)

8. I am not a "rivet-counter" so I am not fussed if the kit is not super-detailed, I have no clue about brakegear, hornblocks, suspension and all that stuff and frankly I think I will have enough on my plate to start with building in a new medium and learning new skills without becoming an expert on rolling stock prototypes too! (I do not intend to exhibit the layout, if I was asked I might, but it's not the plan - it's for me to get back into the hobby and for my family who have a connection to the area I intend to represent)

9. Budget is not really an issue, I'd rather spend, say, £40 on a kit I will have a chance of running after I've built it than failing at a £20 one because I was trying to save money. (Again please steer me if I am well out on this but these seem reasonable figures given my loco kit cost £89 plus a few more quid for the bits to allow it actually to run)

 

If you've read this far I think it's reasonable to assume you have a suggestion for me, in which case, many thanks!

[Reorte]

I've not much help to offer (I've built a few but am very much a beginner) but I would suggest practicing on scraps of brass before you bring solder to kit. If you've not got any yet then there will be plenty with whatever kit you do decide to get.

[nick_bastable]

I would suggest you start with a wagon coaches tumble-homes are horrible to form 

[uax6]

Lochgorm do a beginners etched kit for a goods van. http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/wagons.html Mind you I learnt by making the HRW3 kit!

 

OK the begineers kit's not southern, but it will be a vehicle that's likely to be seen in the area..

 

Is £8 plus P&P (you'll have to provide your own wheels!) expensive enough?

 

Andy G

[polybear]

And for a loco I'd suggest something from Connoisseur Models, perhaps the J79

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/4mm%20Scale%2000%20Gauge.html

 

A bargain in my book, and free postage

 

LNER though....

 

HTH

Brian

[bluebottle_uk]

Lochgorm do a beginners etched kit for a goods van. http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/wagons.html Mind you I learnt by making the HRW3 kit!

 

OK the begineers kit's not southern, but it will be a vehicle that's likely to be seen in the area..

 

Is £8 plus P&P (you'll have to provide your own wheels!) expensive enough?

 

Andy G

 

Thank you uax6 - that does seem like a bargain! 

 

The next, and probably obvious, question is regarding soldering kit. I was kindly given an 18W Antex starter kit by a friend but from my meagre research so far I worry that this will not be sufficient for brass kits? I know that the power rating alone is not determinative of the ability to solder, but that on larger brass pieces the heat may be dissipated before the join is properly formed? Should I look at getting hold of a 25W or 30W model?

 

Also please advice on solder/flux? I've seen so many threads where guys with thousands of posts and years of membership to forums can't agree whether cored solder is sufficient, others say the only way to be sure is using a great big tin of acidic nastiness that has to be cleaned off afterwards and still more saying that it's all overrated and that if you clean things properly then simple tinning of the respective parts will be enough... 

[jwealleans]

The Lochgorm Kit (which I've recommended to many peopele without ever actually having built one myself) will build into an LMS or LNER vehicle. Most vans were common user by the 1930s anyway so you'd see vehicles from all four companies anywhere in the country.

 

I use Carr's liquid although Gaugemaster do one and one or two traders have their own as well. Not had a problem with any of them but cleanliness is all important whatever you use.

 

I have a 50W Antex iron - I did have a 25W which worked, but the 50 is quicker to heat up.

[Siberian Snooper]

The most important thing with soldering is to make sure that the areas to be soldered are spotlessly clead before starting, a fibreglass pencil is very useful in this respect. A range of solders is also useful. Ie 188 degree, 145 degree etc. use the higher temprature solder first and lower temprature for adding the smaller components. As too which flux to use I have a variety and it is worth experimentig a bit too see what suits you as we all have our preferences. I also use solder paint and solder cream. A good scrub with CIF or similar at the end of a session to clean off the flux and any other residue.

[jonhall]

LSWR would suggest something Roxey, perhaps a 4c5 or 4c8 brake, or 4c9 bullion van, although most may have gone before your period. I'd suggest something with few windows as a starter, although if you have a lot of droplights you will at least get a lot of practice. Also probably avoid the Maunsell R4 brake coaches  as these have a jiggle which makes them a bit more difficult.

 

You don't say where you are based, but Roxey will be at Epsom(Nescot) this weekend, and I'd expect a soldering demo there as well - probably from someone well familiar with building Dave's kits.

 

Jon

[Mark Forrest]

I recently started building my first loco kit, there should be a link to my workbench thread below this post.

 

I've built a fair few plastic kits, enhanced with a few brass bits for brakes etc. I had bought a couple of brass wagons to practice on, but in the end dived straight in with the loco, although I had a bit of a practice with a couple of chassis first.

 

IMHO an etched chassis under a RTR body is a more relevant practice piece than a wagon kit.

 

Highly recommend Ian Rice's two Wild Swan books on etched kit construction. I was also fortunate enough to be able to spend a weekend at Missenden which helped a lot.

 

I chose to start with a simple 0-6-0 and build it using the motor, gearbox and suspension recommended by the kit's manufacturer, rather than over complicate things. I'm using an Antex 25w iron, with 145 solder and phosphoric flux.

 

Hope that helps.

[Chubber]

Buy a £5, 40 watt cheapo soldering iron from Screwfix with an (comparatively ) enormous screwdriver type bit and a reel of resin cored solder.

 

Cut up some beer cans, scissors will do the job, scrape the plastic film/paint/print off, use fine sand paper, not emery paper, and try soldering a little napkin ring.

 

Then a couple of over-laps.

 

Then a couple of Tee-sections.

 

Then try a little tin box, folding up sides around a pair of long-nosed pliers.

 

You'll soon be on your way to being handy enough for a simple fold-up brass kit, using old - fashioned Bakers Fluid brushed on neatly with a plastic ferruled kiddies paint brush you'll wonder what you were fretting about (no pun intended...)

 

Granpa Doug

[Jeff Smith]

I would not recommend rosin cored electrical solder as it is generally a higher melting temperature and the amount of flux is quite small - great for copper wires but not so good for brass etches.  If you try this you might be disillusioned and want to give up. 

 

Liquid flux is quite hard to come by in the American Colonies but I found a good safe cheap supply in hobby/craft stores for stained glass window construction, you might find the same where you live.  However I have to import low melt solder......

[The Nth Degree]

Lochgorm do a beginners etched kit for a goods van. http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/wagons.html Mind you I learnt by making the HRW3 kit!

 

OK the begineers kit's not southern, but it will be a vehicle that's likely to be seen in the area..

 

Is £8 plus P&P (you'll have to provide your own wheels!) expensive enough?

 

Andy G

This is exactly where I started, albeit in 7mm scale. Just about every common technique is covered and you get something nice to decorate afterwards. Good value in both 4mm and 7mm

[Kris]

Don't write off your existing iron. It will still have it's uses and can be remarkably versatile. As has been said however you will have to wait a little longer to get the heat you need.  

[Chubber]

True. My suggestion of resin cored solder was only to build up a little 'iron craft' before advancing. It comes in useful later for wiring.

 

I still maintain Bakers Fluid (killed spirits of salt) is a good flux for brass (and tinplate0 but needs washing off after use.

 

Doug

[Shed Driver]

I agree with Chubber.  I only use Bakers Flux which is far cheaper than other brands and far more effective.

 

Norman

[The Nth Degree]

Regarding soldering, this has always been a contentious issue, and always will be. Some people will have been brought up with a certain method and will stick to it for ever. I came to soldering from knowing nothing about the subject and chose my own method, but also listened to advice. I have decided that for my own use as a sporadic solderer who is very time-limited and on a budget that one flux and two solders are all that I need, partly inspired by the best and cleanest work I've seen.

 

I use the safety flux sold by Building 0 Gauge Online. I have a child running about so I don't want dangerous chemicals in the house – however well guarded. It's very easy to remove under a tap and leaves no residue. Even residue that's been on your work for a few days can be scrubbed off with a toothbrush with no detriment or discolouration.

 

I also only use two solders: 188 and 100 degrees.

188 has a very narrow working temperature and is also more fluid than 145, so it can get into joints very well and will set very quickly so you can be in and out faster than 145 and lessen your hold time. I use this for all brass and NS soldering. It's so good, you can solder two items very close together without one becoming unsoldered.

 

I only use 100 degree solder for whitemetals so I can use the same soldering technique regardless of material – there is no need for tinning as there is for lower temp soft solders.

 

I only have a small workspace (a small bureaux at the top of the stairs) so I don't want to fill it with a flux for this and a solder for that. I have an iron, a brass wool pad to clean the iron, a fibreglass brush and the items mentioned above. That's it, and it suits me, but I fully realise it may not suit others.

 

Whatever you do, have fun doing it.

Steve

[Guy Rixon]

I'd suggest getting the 25W Antex iron for soldering the large pieces. You can use the 18W one for small assemblies, where the bulk of metal will not drop the temperature too much.

 

It's worth getting both 188-degree and 145 degree solder. If you use the higher-melting-point one for structural assembly and the other for detailing, there's less chance of unsoldering your main joints later in the build.

 

Rosin-cored solder tends to melt at even higher temperatures, maybe around 250 degrees (although now that it is lead free there are significant variations). You can use this stuff with the Antex irons (they are actually designed for it!) but you need to give the iron time to come back up to full temperature after each joint. The flux core is useless for building brass models; you need to add liquid flux.

 

The Carr's range of fluxes, now sold by C&L is quite useful. The "red", "yellow" and "green" fluxes are most relevant for brass work. The green is the strongest flux and is markedly corrosive; it will rot a model unless cleaned off after soldering. The red flux is weak, but not so destructive. Yellow is, IIUC, between the two.

[davknigh]

Buy a £5, 40 watt cheapo soldering iron from Screwfix with an (comparatively ) enormous screwdriver type bit and a reel of resin cored solder.

 

Cut up some beer cans, scissors will do the job, scrape the plastic film/paint/print off, use fine sand paper, not emery paper, and try soldering a little napkin ring.

 

Then a couple of over-laps.

 

Then a couple of Tee-sections.

 

Then try a little tin box, folding up sides around a pair of long-nosed pliers.

 

You'll soon be on your way to being handy enough for a simple fold-up brass kit, using old - fashioned Bakers Fluid brushed on neatly with a plastic ferruled kiddies paint brush you'll wonder what you were fretting about (no pun intended...)

 

Granpa Doug

Not being familiar with UK beer cans, we have aluminium ones here in Canada, it would probably be worth making sure that the cans are ferrous metal or otherwise you might get a bit frustrated as the aluminium cans won't solder.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[sp1]

Not being familiar with UK beer cans, we have aluminium ones here in Canada, it would probably be worth making sure that the cans are ferrous metal or otherwise you might get a bit frustrated as the aluminium cans won't solder.

 

Cheers,

 

David

I thought that too - but there are plenty of 'tin' cans available that aren't aluminium - baked beans etc

[Jol Wilkinson]

As usual, the minute you mention soldering, various opinions will be posted, see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110025-kit-building-experts-what-solder-flux-iron-combo-is-best/ as a typical example.

 

After many years building 4mm etched loco, carriage and other kits, discussing techniques with other - in some cases well known and respected modellers -  I have found what works for me. See post 2 of the thread in the link above and those that follow.

 

If you can get to one of the "finescale" shows where soldering and kit construction is being demonstrated it would be very worthwhile.

 

I agree that for a first etched kit, a wagon, van or four wheeled carriage from Roxey, London Road Models, etc. would be a good starting point.

[JZ]

I have an older version of this http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/48w-mains-solder-station-n34fb It has given me sterling service over the last 8 years. Minimum temperature is a bit high for whitemetal, but I tend to glue this.

[micklner]

       I use the O gauge flux mentioned above , no horrible fumes as well as non corrosive , I still wash off after each soldering session as it leaves a "greasy" feel to the metal.

       I use 188 and 145 degree solder never had a problem with either on brass, 70 deg for whitemetal , you use a  different technique for whitemetal as you do it by "welding" the parts together . Ultra care needed as the whitemetal castings will melt with little provocation , large pieces or awkward pieces are glued in preference.

       I use a 25watt for everything, some say use a separate bit for whitemetal soldering, never had a problem so far.

[ROSSPOP]

Hiya Bluebottle,

 

I`m a junior old codger but have been soldering 4mm etched kits since they came out in the 1970`s and have moved over to 7mm kits for the past eight years.

 

I`m not an engineer ( big respect for proper engineers) just a railway modeller for 40years.

 

Firstly.......... there is no black art or mystery about soldering.

 

Secondly.........   if  you make a mistake you can unsolder  take apart clean the solder off if you need to and have as many goes as you like.

 

Thirdly..... you need  HEAT,    THE RIGHT SOLDER , for the job in hand, and FLUX(s)

 

Forthly..........  I am a Luddite, I  purchased a digital soldering station (£150) eight years ago which made one 7mm O gauge tender loco and gave up the ghost one month after the twelve month guarantee !!!!

The result has been me returning to using my one and only soldering true love......The Antex Soldering iron(s)

 

In 4mm you will need a minimum   25 watts and perhaps 40watt irons.

 

In 7mm you will need 40watt and 80 watt irons.

 

Some times you need the ability to get extra heat for thicker parts, so then you will need a FLAME.

 

These are what I have used since the 70`s,  not forgetting the little white pot needed to keep tinning your soldering iron tips and thus, prolong their life.

 

I use different solders so that as the kit progresses you can solder on the details by using lower temp products.......simples

 

 

Some times you will need a good seperate flux that will stay in place and cope with high temperature if using a flame and also leave you a spare hand to apply the solder. Powerflux is the ideal here.  Solder paste is another way of applying solder combined with flux particularly if you are laminating parts together.

 

 

 

 

You will , of course need a quality cleaner,    you won`t find better than this for metal kits.......

 

 

 

The low melt 100 deg solder needs no pre tinning of parts and I use it to solder thick heavy 7mm boilers........ 

 

 

Regards   and good luck

[Chubber]

(Resorting to 'Allo 'Allo Herr Flick....)

 

Vich iss der 'little vite pot' unt vott duss it haff in it?

 

Here on a Croation camp site today I have had the surreal experience of taking part in an impromptu bar time session of 'Allo 'Allo, with me doing Herr Flick, a German doing Reneé and a French man doing Gruber.

 

'Gruber...haff you been mincing?'

 

Doug