More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

This photo of the Midland's coal wharf in central Bristol teems with D299s but one S&DJR look-alike is also visible.

 

Thanks for that, what a scene. And again very modellable. Since the wagons are facing in different directions I assume there are several turntables hidden there.  You could make a very scenic shunting puzzle out of that. Life is too short!

[Compound2632]

Thanks for that, what a scene. And again very modellable. Since the wagons are facing in different directions I assume there are several turntables hidden there.  You could make a very scenic shunting puzzle out of that. Life is too short!

 

Yes indeed. Avon Wharf was just on the other side of the river from Temple Meads station, tucked under the approach lines, as can be seen here. Further photos from the NRM's collection, all apparently taken in 1898, here and here.

[wagonman]

I have a copy of an old RM with a drawing for an 8T high sided goods and mineral wagon built by the Midland for the SECR in 1898.  Was this a D299? It fits with the dates of production of the first iteration?

 

 

As Stephen says, railway companies didn't generally build stock for other railway companies. Could these have been built by the Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Co? The SER and the LCDR both used outside contractors – including Hurst Nelson and Pickering – but I've not actually found any from the Mid RC&W...

[Western Star]

Here is a clearer version of the photo posted earlier...

 

 

I believe that this photograph dates to pre-WW1 and is within the NRM collection, posted here under "Fair Use..  for information and research".

 

I am now of the opinion that these four MR wagons with tarpaulin bars are not to D304:-

 

a) the MR wagons have a comparable body length to the adjacent Gloster PO wagons;

b) the MR wagons appear to not have the carriage suspension as fitted to D304;

c) at least one of the MR wagons has bottom doors.

d) the wagons in question have grease boxes rather than the oil boxes of D304.

 

The writing on the wagon sheeting to the right of the side door is of the form "to be returned to" above three indistinct words which might be "Swansea Vale Sidings".

 

I have consulted Bob Essery's MR Wagons vol.1 and I think that there is no photo or drawing which corresponds to what can be seen in photo above.

 

[subsequently editted to include comments from Bill Bedford]

Edited July 27, 2017 by Western Star

[Penlan]

Is the consensus 'Bob Essery's wrong' 

[billbedford]

You are right all the wagons in the photo have grease axleboxes. It would be useful if we could read the branding.

[Compound2632]

Is the consensus 'Bob Essery's wrong' 

 

Homer nods...

 

You are right all the wagons in the photo have grease axleboxes. It would be useful if we could read the branding.

 

Yes, from Penlan's original posting, it looked as though the second wagon might have oil axleboxes but we can now see they are the usual Ellis 10A grease boxes. It's rather freshly painted, so if the 1912 date is right, provides some info about this experiment with sheet rails. I thing Western Star is right that the branding is:

TO BE RETURNED TO

SWANSEA VALE [something, could be SIDINGS but was that a place? - DISTRICT perhaps.]

  

Here is a clearer version of the photo posted earlier...

 

MR Wagons in Swansea Vale web.jpg

 

I believe that this photograph dates to pre-WW1 and is within the NRM collection, posted here under "Fair Use..  for information and research".

 

I am now of the opinion that these four MR wagons with tarpaulin bars are not to D304:-

 

a) the MR wagons have a comparable body length to the adjacent Gloster PO wagons;

b) the MR wagons appear to not have the carriage suspension as fitted to D304 **;

c) at least one of the MR wagons has bottom doors.

 

** albeit at least one of the wagons under consideration does appear to have 3'7" carriage wheels.

 

The writing on the wagon sheeting to the right of the side door is of the form "to be returned to" above three indistinct words which might be "Swansea Vale Sidings".

 

I have consulted Bob Essery's MR Wagons vol.1 and I think that there is no photo or drawing which corresponds to what can be seen in photo above.

 

I'm glad we agree. Here and now, live on RMWeb, we're in at the discovery of a species of Midland wagon unknown even to Bob Essery himself - D299 with sheet rail. Exciting, isn't it?

 

An open question is, given the branding, were these wagons modified in response to the demands of a particular traffic?

Edited July 25, 2017 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

I shall send the photo to Bob Essery and ask for his opinion.

 

We are at a disadvantage in that the 'definitive' work on Midland Railway wagons, written by Bob, is roughly 30 years old and there has been no revision to that tome.  The demise of 'Midland Record' means that any new take on accepted wisdom is unlikely to appear in the wider world.

[Penlan]

..... I think Western Star is right that the branding is:

TO BE RETURNED TO

SWANSEA VALE [something, could be SIDINGS but was that a place? - DISTRICT perhaps.]

The Midlands had a DISTRICT Engineer in the offices at Brecon, though they didn't have any of their own track there.

I don't seem to have any working timetables etc., for the MR's Swansea Vale area, so I can't check what they refer to.

I think Swansea Vale Sidings is to loose a phrase for the complex lines in the area.

The LNWR on the other side of Swansea, had wagons branded to work in 'Swansea District Only'

 

[Guy Rixon]

Buhar, that sounds highly likely - the description matches. It would still be the South Eastern Railway at this date as the working union with the LCDR didn't come into effect until 1 Jan 1899. About this date the SER also built some 6-wheel brake vans identical in all but details to the Midland D393 design. There was a thread about these a while ago in which I speculated that the link was James Clayton, who moved from Derby to Ashford in 1898. I'd need some convincing that the Midland built these D299 clones rather than just providing the drawings either to Ashford or the SER's contractor, as railway companies building equipment for sale to other railways had been ruled to be outside the terms of their incorporation by Act of Parliament, following action brought by the independent locomotive manufacturers when the LNWR built some Sampson 2-4-0s and DX 0-6-0s for the L&YR in the 1870s. Derby did build rolling stock for some of its joint lines - or at least for the S&DJR, though Highbridge built more to Midland designs or used Midland components or patterns in its own creations. This photo of the Midland's coal wharf in central Bristol teems with D299s but one S&DJR look-alike is also visible.

 

 

At about this date, the SER, and then then SECR, seemed suddenly to need a lot of mineral wagons. I think it may represent the start of an arrangement with Cory's (one of the big, London coal-factors) to ship a lot of coal to wharves on the Thames and Medway provided that the railway provided the wagons for onward transport. Anyway, around this time the railway bought wagons from the trade, second hand from from merchants and factors, and from Ashford works. The ones from Ashford at this time were SER designs, and at least some of those built by the trade (e.g. by Hurst Nelson in 1902/1902) had SECR design-elements. I don't think that they would have used MR drawings for an obsolescent, 8-ton design in an order to the trade. Therefore, I suspect that the MR-type wagons bought in 1898 actually already in existence, presumably in MR stock, and were bought because they could be had quickly.

[billbedford]

 I thing Western Star is right that the branding is:

TO BE RETURNED TO

SWANSEA VALE [something, could be SIDINGS but was that a place? - DISTRICT perhaps.]

 

 

The full name of these sidings was 'Swansea Vale Spelter Co sidings' and they were joint MR, GWR and LNWR but on a Midland line.

[Compound2632]

The demise of 'Midland Record' means that any new take on accepted wisdom is unlikely to appear in the wider world.

 

The Journal of the Midland Railway Society is available to anyone who cares to pay the £20 per annum Society membership fee.

[gnsr & lswr]

I'd love to get my hands on some of these, sadly when they come up on ebay they go for stupid money. 

 

Out of interest what are the body dimensions of the 3 plank? 

You may then be (very!) interested to know that I've just discovered that POWSIDES also have access to the Slaters MR 5 and 3 plank mouldings and sell the kits without wheels for only £6.50 plus postage. My batch arrived this week. RESULT!! No silly ebay prices......and they also supply the Slaters PO wagons too.....

[Edwardian]

The full name of these sidings was 'Swansea Vale Spelter Co sidings' and they were joint MR, GWR and LNWR but on a Midland line.

 

Spelter works:  http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/419498/details/swansea-vale-spelter-works-llansamlet-Swansea

 

Dis some facet of production require sheeted loads?

[Compound2632]

The full name of these sidings was 'Swansea Vale Spelter Co sidings' and they were joint MR, GWR and LNWR but on a Midland line.

 

So 'Swansea Vale' is a specific location. Looking at the MR distance diagrams, I think I find them just north of Upper Bank, at 260 m 62 c. I can see the connection to the GW South Wales main line but it's not obvious how the LNWR gets its look-in. Unfortunately the NLS online 25" maps don't do Wales yet but looking at the modern 1:25,000 map gives some idea - though looking for the location of the photo, I can see where Ynisygeinon Sidings would be, hemmed in between the running lines and the River Tawe.

[Compound2632]

You may then be (very!) interested to know that I've just discovered that POWSIDES also have access to the Slaters MR 5 and 3 plank mouldings and sell the kits without wheels for only £6.50 plus postage. My batch arrived this week. RESULT!! No silly ebay prices......and they also supply the Slaters PO wagons too.....

 

Well knock me down with a feather, so they do, plain as day on their website. Why didn't I notice this when I ordered Gloucester PO kits from them back in April? Or have they recently appeared.

 

What about the other Midland kits...

[Compound2632]

A search of the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Register on the Midland Railway Study Centre's website using the term 'sheet tilt' turns up half-a-dozen drawings, the earliest from 1906 for a 'portable sheet tilt' and the next from 1910: 'Sheet Tilt for Wagons'. Unfortunately the only one of these drawings in the Study Centre's collection is the last, from 1920.

[Compound2632]

Well, I made a passing comment about the Midland’s D304 wagons for Carr’s Biscuits and that generated a whole train of discussion which brought us back to D299 again! Meanwhile, back on track – if there is one (which there isn’t in the photo below) – the two Huntley & Palmers wagons have their first coat of paint:

 

 

Great Western red? Or a bit too brown? This is Halfords red primer but looks a bit washed out in this photo compared to natural light. Photos of raw red lead (minium) online look a bit orangier.

 

On 24/07/2017 at 20:46, Buhar said:

I have a copy of an old RM with a drawing for an 8T high sided goods and mineral wagon built by the Midland for the SECR in 1898.  Was this a D299? It fits with the dates of production of the first iteration?

 

Going back to D299, Buhar has PM’d me a scan of the Model Railway News drawing to which he referred. It’s a Ken Werrett drawing, details taken 1919. It is a Midland D299; Werrett has dotted in the initials M R but shown in solid line the SE&CR livery – initials on the bottom plank left and number C13 bottom plank right. (What might be the significance of the C prefix?) Body colour is noted as dark red, with black running gear. He notes ‘Midland Number Plate Removed’ but also the building date plate ‘Built Derby 1898’. The axleboxes appear to be of the Ellis 8A pattern, rather outmoded by 1898 – new build Midland wagons had the Ellis 10A boxes (per the Slater’s kits) from the early 1890s. Is this perhaps an early-build D299 that has been sold to the SER second hand, with an overhaul at Derby first – the 1898 date being sleight of hand? Or 1898-built wagons sold to the SE&CR at a later date, with old axleboxes deviously substituted for the 10A ones? An afternoon at Kew with the minute books might answer some of these questions – and tell how many wagons there were.

 

I’ve wondered about Ken Werrett’s drawings – they are remarkably detailed if genuinely drawn from measurements taken ‘in the field’ – I can’t help suspecting that he also had access to official drawings. Does anybody know anything about him or his methods?

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Miss Prism]

Ken Werrett's wagon drawings were always extremely good, and I think he must have had access to official drawings. He did a few loco drawings as well. Any MRNs with his stuff in were always worth keeping.

[Rail-Online]

All very interesting, keep up the good work

 

 

Tony

[wagonman]

In the early 1900s the SECR did buy quite a few wagons, presumably second hand, from dealers such as the Bute Works Supply Co and Cornforth. The MR wagons could well have come via this route. A bit off the wall, but could the 'C' prefix have referred to Cornforth? There is no mention in Bixley/King/et al of any wagons purchased directly from the Midland Rly...

 

 

Richard

[Western Star]

I have had a reply from Bob Essery:-

 

<quote>

Most interesting, I cannot recall encountering this before. I can only suggest that they have been modified but I have no details of the work undertaken. If I were looking for information I would ask the Midland Railway Society and if they cannot help I guess it is a reason to visit the National Archive at Kew.

<end quote>

 

So whilst this reply does not help identify the wagons in the photo I read the text as acknowleding that the D304 Biscuit wagons were not the only MR wagon with tarpaulin / sheet bars, possibly the D304 was the only wagon with the tilt rail as built.

[Penlan]

One of the Authors of the Swansea Vale Book is in the Midland Railway Society, so I will nudge him... 

[Compound2632]

I have had a reply from Bob Essery:-

 

<quote>

Most interesting, I cannot recall encountering this before. I can only suggest that they have been modified but I have no details of the work undertaken. If I were looking for information I would ask the Midland Railway Society and if they cannot help I guess it is a reason to visit the National Archive at Kew.

<end quote>

 

So whilst this reply does not help identify the wagons in the photo I read the text as acknowleding that the D304 Biscuit wagons were not the only MR wagon with tarpaulin / sheet bars, possibly the D304 was the only wagon with the tilt rail as built.

 

Thanks - good to have the doyen's view confirming ours. It's the sort of thing that might get mentioned in the Carriage & Wagon Committee minutes, which are at Kew - I've only looked through the volumes up to c. 1902.

 

One of the Authors of the Swansea Vale Book is in the Midland Railway Society, so I will nudge him... 

 

Whilst you are about it, you might ask him if he has a view on the lone D299 wagon in among the Taff Vale wagons at Ferndale, in the photo on p.10 of Journal No. 64. Though I have a sneaking feeling it might be his photo...

[Penlan]

Whilst you are about it, you might ask him if he has a view on the lone D299 wagon in among the Taff Vale wagons at Ferndale, in the photo on p.10 of Journal No. 64. Though I have a sneaking feeling it might be his photo...

Journal ? Which one......  Midland, GWR, British Railway.... etc.,