More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Not much modelling done on holiday - just some desultory work on yet more Ratio LNWR wagons. (Will I never learn?). Bought some interesting second-hand books: Vol 2 & 3 of Ahrons' Locomotives and Train Working in the latter part of the Nineteenth Century: a good holiday read, £6.50 each - years ago, the late lamented Henry Wilson Books in Sedbergh had a complete set at £12 per volume but I baulked at spending £72. The following year I found some philistine had split the set, buying Vols. 2-4, so I succumbed and bought the remainder (English constituents of the LNER, Southern constituents, and, most delightful of all, Ireland). Vol. 2 has the serious stuff: English constituents of the LMS; Vol. 3 covers Scotland - Ahrons at his most engaging, though Scots might find him a little patronising at times. So I only lack Vol 4, Great Western and constituents...

 

I also bought a couple of old David & Charles photo albums of Irish railways, which has had the effect of making me even more dissatisfied with 00!

 

D299 spotting: I was idly googling for photos of LNWR Class A 0-8-0 3-cylinder compounds - there is something rather ... about that heavily pregnant front end - when I hit on C F Verrall's collection on Flickr. Flicking through, I came on this photo - showing some private sidings near Oxted. The dat isn't known but from the sparkling condition of the Brighton engine I'd guess early rather then later - pre-pooling? Anyway, the first wagon in the nearer siding is D299, also I think the sixth and seventh.

[Compound2632]

Cadbury wagon update: I'm using Humbrol 104 Oxford Blue, which isn't a perfect match for the lettering (which does have a hint of purple) but close enough for me. I had been speculating about the lettering style, the other similar examples I could find being allegedly from the 1920s. So I was pleased to find this photo on the Warwickshire Railways website, dated October 1908 - so within a year or so of the wagon. The Johnson 0-6-0 still has brass numbers on the cab side-sheet - though presumably with its post-1907 number. It doesn't look spectacularly clean, either.

[Penlan]

 - when I hit on C F Verrall's collection on Flickr. Flicking through, I came on this photo - showing some private sidings near Oxted. 

I wonder what weight the 'main line' rail is?

It looks to be 'fine', possibly < 90 lbs/yd.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

To get back into the swing of things after a period of modelling inactivity, I’ve tackled an ebay purchase from my binge last winter – Ratio kit 753 from the LNWR range of the early 80s, some of which were discontinued when Ratio passed to Peco, others of which are still available. Kit 753 included one of each: the D62 loco coal wagon and D54 traffic coal wagon. The latter is still available as one half of kit 576 but the loco coal wagon must count as a rarity.

 

 

Apologies for the lurid background – that was the first piece of coloured paper that came to hand; I wanted a contrasting background to the very pale grey plastic of the wagon bodies.

 

The left-hand wagon is the 5-plank D54 coal wagon cut down to a 4-plank D53 wagon – a straight repeat of what I did a year ago. This one has conventional single-sided V-hanger brakes but I’ve made an attempt to represent the curved brake lever per the drawing on the LNWR Society website. The kit provides for the later angled brake lever, moulded together with the outer V-hanger. I cut the lever off the hanger and stuck the latter to the solebar – the end of the curved lever makes a smaller angle to the V-hanger than does the straight lever. I tried immersing the brake lever in nearly-boiling water but that had no effect, so I applied copious amounts of MekPak to soften the plastic instead and tried to bend the lever round a two-pence piece. It’s a bit crude and the brake lever ratchet is too close to the end of the wagon but it’ll do for now.

 

The D64 loco coal wagon is a straightforward build per the kit. My previous one had been painted in my youth and then stripped and re-painted last year – in the process, the fine detail of the bolt-heads holding the cut-out LOCO letters in place had been lost. Seeing it here, it really is rather fine – unfortunately it doesn’t show up too well in the photo.  Airnimal is scratch-building one of these in 7 mm scale – it looks as if he’s going to attempt the rather odd brake gear that some of these wagons had – I think of it as the ‘cross-legged’ or ‘Zen’ gear! (See the photo in the book in Airnimal’s post or, if you have LNWR Wagons Vol. 1, the diagram at Fig. 30 – where it is called the ‘toggle’ brake.) I’ve chickened out and fitted the simple single-block push-rod arrangement.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

On second thoughts I decided to rise to the challenge of the toggle brake:

 

 

This is made from the Ratio kit moulding for the conventional two-shoe brakes. I cut away the moulded safety loops, then cut the push rods from the brake shoes, angled the ends and MekPak-ed them back on again at the new, steeper, angle, fixing the inner ends to the moulded block and adding microstrip to represent the connecting rod (not visible in the photo). A sketch may help:

 

 

I also trimmed the bottom fixing lug off each brake shoe – the reversible type came in some years after the toggle brake was in vogue, it would seem.

 

The toggle brake used the same lever arrangement as the single push-rod brake, but the lever moved a short lever behind the solebar, which pushed the connecting rod down so that the inner ends of the brake push rods were pushed down, forcing the brake shoes to be pushed outwards. Earlestown don’t seem to have bothered with push rod safety loops with this type of brake.

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Penlan]

Done a few years ago, but my version of the loco coal wagon and the conversion to the LNWR's Swansea & Carmarthen area, Dia., 27 wagon.  The Loco Coal wagons were basically tarred, not grey, if my sources are correct.....

 

 

 

I have the 'T' shirt somewhere too.. 

 

I wonder why there's no couplings to one end of each of the wagons 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

The Loco Coal wagons were basically tarred, not grey, if my sources are correct.....

 

That had me scurrying for my copy of LNWR Liveries, where the occasional use of creosote for loco coal wagons is mentioned. These D64 wagons will, I assume, be in the eagerly awaited third volume of LNWR Wagons, no doubt this will have more to say on the subject. What do your sources say exactly, Penlan? I imagine that if the woodwork was creosoted, the ironwork could well be painted black. I'm interested that on the Swansea District wagon, you've painted the ironwork a slightly darker shade of grey than the woodwork. On weel-weathered wagons, I think that's what happened - giving rise to photos where it looks as if the livery is 'grey with black ironwork'. Any comment?

 

You've also worried me with solid spoke wheels on the loco coal wagon - I'd gained the impression that split spoke wheels were universal on LNWR wagons?

 

Did you make the toggle brakes the same way I made mine?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

That had me scurrying for my copy of LNWR Liveries, where the occasional use of creosote for loco coal wagons is mentioned. These D64 wagons will, I assume, be in the eagerly awaited third volume of LNWR Wagons,.....

. What do your sources say exactly, Penlan? I imagine that if the woodwork was creosoted, the ironwork could well be painted black. I'm interested that on the Swansea District wagon, you've painted the ironwork a slightly darker shade of grey than the woodwork. On weel-weathered wagons, I think that's what happened - giving rise to photos where it looks as if the livery is 'grey with black ironwork'. Any comment?

 

You've also worried me with solid spoke wheels on the loco coal wagon - I'd gained the impression that split spoke wheels were universal on LNWR wagons?

 

Did you make the toggle brakes the same way I made mine?

Much to reply on.

I too await Vol. 3.  Which has been promised for some time.

LNWR Liveries mentions the Loco Coal Wagons as being (occasionally) creosoted (page 131), and I remember J.P.Richards having some 'Loco Coal' wagons painted a dark brown 'ish colour too.  Thus being JPR, he is no longer able to 'say'....

The Dia. 27 Swansea area wagons are from information JPR also gave me*, and I think there maybe one of these in his collection at NRM.   

* This is back in the late 1960's, long, long ago.

Arrrgh, split spoke?  Well there's a lack of attention on my part, and I can't see in Vols., 1 & 2 a specific reference to the fact the spokes are - for modellers - split spoke, but reading the method of manufacture on page 37 of Vol. 1, that can only mean split spoke.    Rule 1, don't copy models, go to the original.  Not to worry I have plenty of split spoke wheels I can swop over.

Grey with darker metalwork - weathering.

Brake gear, yes it looks as if I have a similar method of representation to you.

[Penlan]

Don't all rush at once, but....

IF the D299 is also Slaters 4PO27 wagon kit, then there's 3 on Ebay at present.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=p4027&_osacat=180250&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xslaters+midland+5+plank.TRS0&_nkw=slaters+midland+5+plank&_sacat=180250

Edited September 18, 2017 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Don't all rush at once, but....

 

IF the D299 is also Slaters 4PO27 wagon kit, then there's 3 on Ebay at present.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=p4027&_osacat=180250&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xslaters+midland+5+plank.TRS0&_nkw=slaters+midland+5+plank&_sacat=180250

 

That's them. On the one hand, as the kit is now available from POWSides at £6.50 - sans wheels and transfers - Ebay suddenly looks less interesting. On the other hand, the Presfix transfer sheets that should come with the boxed kits are well worth having; the HMRS English pre-Grouping except LNWR wagons sheet has the basic lettering but not the numberplates and tare weights, I think. So the Ebay starting price is probably fair but I wouldn't go much above it.

 

EDIT: I've added those and the seller's D305 3-plank dropside wagons (also available from POWSides) to my watch list, just to see what they finally go for!

Edited September 18, 2017 by Compound2632

[sharris]

On the other hand, the Presfix transfer sheets that should come with the boxed kits are well worth having; t

 

Is there a way to reliably revitalise these transfers? - they must be quite an age now. Certainly the ones I had left over from Slaters kits have been quite hit-and-miss as to whether they are actually usable or not. 

[Compound2632]

Is there a way to reliably revitalise these transfers? - they must be quite an age now. Certainly the ones I had left over from Slaters kits have been quite hit-and-miss as to whether they are actually usable or not. 

 

I'm sure I've read several discussions on this on here - possibly even earlier in this thread! I'm afraid all I can say is that I have to date been fortunate enough not to have any problem with pressfix transfers due to age.

[Siberian Snooper]

I'm sure I've read several discussions on this on here - possibly even earlier in this thread! I'm afraid all I can say is that I have to date been fortunate enough not to have any problem with pressfix transfers due to age.

I read on one of the threads on here, that if you treat them as Methfix transfers they will still work, I have not so far tried it.

[Andy Hayter]

Is there a way to reliably revitalise these transfers? - they must be quite an age now. Certainly the ones I had left over from Slaters kits have been quite hit-and-miss as to whether they are actually usable or not. 

 

Treat them as a Methfix transfer.  

 

I have just recently made up some Slaters PO wagons which must be at least 20 years old and the presfix transfers were understandably no longer tacky.  No problems in getting the large company signs on the wagon.  The individual wagon numbers were a bit more of a trial to get in line and stay there but slow and careful work got there.

[Compound2632]

D299 spotting: this photo of Barmouth Junction claims to be 1910 but from the variety of wagons, I suspect post-pooling or even later, given the size of the GW initials on their two 3-plank wagons* and the faded condition of the LNWR lettering - introduced 1908. Anyway, I count half-a-dozen D299 wagons, along with a D305 3-plank dropside wagon, out of about forty wagons altogether.

 

*Or did 3-plank wagons have smaller GW from 1904? Pardon my ignorance.

 

Thanks to ChrisN for posting a link to this Flickr stream in another thread.

[Penlan]

...., I suspect post-pooling or even later, given the size of the GW initials on their two 3-plank wagons* and the faded condition of the LNWR lettering - introduced 1908. 

But look how bright that SECR lettering is.

A wide range of wagons there, wonder if it's WW1 ?

 

There's at least two LBSC's as well, and not a single van to be seen.

Excellent view, even if a bit hazy

[wagonbasher]

Excellent view, even if a bit hazy

That's a Welsh heat haze.....

 

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

That's a Welsh heat haze.....

 

 

Andy

 

A few years ago we had a week in August near Tanygrisiau. The driest place we went was down the slate mine.

[Edwardian]

D299 spotting: this photo of Barmouth Junction claims to be 1910 but from the variety of wagons, I suspect post-pooling or even later, given the size of the GW initials on their two 3-plank wagons* and the faded condition of the LNWR lettering - introduced 1908. Anyway, I count half-a-dozen D299 wagons, along with a D305 3-plank dropside wagon, out of about forty wagons altogether.

 

*Or did 3-plank wagons have smaller GW from 1904? Pardon my ignorance.

 

Thanks to ChrisN for posting a link to this Flickr stream in another thread.

 

Not only is the "LNWR" faded, but I can't spot the diamonds.

[Penlan]

Not only is the "LNWR" faded, but I can't spot the diamonds.

I spite of what Shirley Bassey sang, it seems diamonds are not forever.

I wouldn't put to much credence for dating with or without diamonds, agreed there was a crossover period, but the diamonds were soon dropped, leaving just the LNWR.

Years ago (35+) I seem to recall having a conversation on this point in the LNWR Society,  and the conclusion was that there didn't appear to be hardly any freight stock with a paint date later than early 1911 with 'Diamonds & LNWR' on them, though to cover myself, occasional wagons repainted at out-stations, departmental wagons etc., could still have Diamonds applied up to 1923.

All E. & O.E..

[Penlan]

Welsh heat haze?  I like it   
Wet down a Slate Mine? Yes, I recall back a'long, going down a Lead mine up around Snowden, we abseiled down into it about a 100' and at the bottom where a couple of dead Sheep, which freaked out a couple with us.  At that point there was no way back (up).

Then we walked out through about a 1.5 miles of tunnels with the water constantly at around 2 feet deep, bar one place where it went very deep (20') and we had to get past that on a 8" wide ledge... We got very wet, and it was raining when we got out of the network too, what else in North Wales.....  Happy days 

 

I'm still fascinated by the large number of open wagons from so many companies.
I see there's also GE and GC there too.
The third & forth wagons in the distant siding seem very high sided.

[Compound2632]

Wet down a Slate Mine?

 

True, I didn't say it was dry, just driest...

[wagonbasher]

The third & forth wagons in the distant siding seem very high sided.

The GW had those high sided wagons to carry Forage, did other companies have such vehicles? Could they be that high?

 

Andy

[Guy Rixon]

But look how bright that SECR lettering is.

A wide range of wagons there, wonder if it's WW1 ?

 

There's at least two LBSC's as well, and not a single van to be seen.

Excellent view, even if a bit hazy

 

 

The SECR wagon has lettering in the Maunsell style, so the picture is 1913 at the absolute earliest and probably wartime or later.

 

I wonder if the SECR was using the self-cleaning paint for the letters, like the MR?

[Penlan]

True, I didn't say it was dry, just driest...

Ah, the irony of my remark was lost.....   

Somebody once told me I have a singular sense of humour,

I'm the only one who gets / understands it....