Help Please - Whats Inside a 3F Jinty Smoke box

[ianLMS]

Good afternoon everyone,

I am thinking of modelling a cameo scene where my shed crew are cleaning a 3F Jinty. I have a suitable candidate in the form of a very cheap Hornby 3F Jinty procured via Ebay (its maroon for now, soon to be black and re-numbered - currently 16440). In the cameo, I thought I could model the static loco having the smoke box cleaned out. I have found a 3F Jinty smoke box door via Alan Gibson along with handrail knobs etc so I can butcher the old one off without too much concern. I have searched the internet looking for pictures detailing what the inside of the smokebox would look like, but to no avail (assuming I could scratch-build something that resembles it).

 

Any ideas on what the inside would look like, and colours etc? How much ash would accumulate in a smoke box?

 

Please excuse my ignorance - I love steam loco's but have never got my head around all of the component parts in particular the subject matter.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Ian

[The Johnster]

Pretty much all steam locos looked generally the same in there, so any photo showing any open smokebox door will give you the general idea. The first thing you'd see would be the blastpipe, a sort of sheet steel conical cowling hanging down underneath the chimney.  This collects steam issuing from the exhaust pipe from the cylinders, which is directly below it, and directs it up the chimney.  It looks crude but in fact is one of the most technologically critical components of the loco.  Behind that will be the drumhead of the boiler, a circular piece of very solid steel with a lot of holes in it; attached to these holes, behind them leading away to the rear, are the boiler tubes, and if any light is shining into the smokebox you'll see a little way into the tubes.  These tubes carry the hot gases from the firebox through the water filled boiler to heat the water and make the steam in much the same way as the element in your kettle does.  As well as cleaning the ash, your shed crew may well be shoving brushes down the the tubes to clean them as well.

 

The ash is simply drawn though the tubes by the blast when the loco is working, and falls in a heap in the bottom of the smokebox, where it lies fairly evenly after having been rocked around a bit by the motion of the loco. It has to be cleared regularly or else it would start to block the tubes and fall into the cylinder exhaust pipe, and nobody wants ash and grit in the cylinders.  Everything in there is filthy, and looks rusty because the sheer heat has oxidised the metal, and will have done since steam was first raised in that boiler; only brand new unsteamed boilers have smokeboxes that look any different to this.

 

The only difference to this generalised norm is on BR standard and some late LMS types with 'self cleaning' smokeboxes.  These had a wire mesh which prevented all but the smallest grains of ash from falling to the floor; instead they were ejected up the chimney to be somebody else's. problem...  

 

If you want to get it obsessively right, you will need to know how many boiler tubes a Jinty had, what sizes, and how distributed; a photo or works diagram will show you this.  Well done for coming up with this cameo; not enough attention is paid by modellers to the very hard, dirty, repetiive, and thankless work done on engine sheds to keep the wheels a'turning.

[Quarryscapes]

It will look basically like this inside. Steam feed to the cylinders at the top there running down the outside, exhaust steam coming up the blast pipe in the middle. Tube plate behind. The bar across is what the smokebox dart engages with. 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Experience of the real things suggests that no two were really alike. Even locomotives of the same class were often different.

 

Jinty's didn't have a smokebox dart for starters.

 

 

Closest I can find at the moment is a Midland version. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=midland+3f+smokebox&biw=1366&bih=651&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC8b6IoanRAhXHAMAKHY4tBKkQ_AUICCgD#imgrc=10rZa-76ZpGHSM%3A

 

 

 

Jason

[Nelson Jackson]

Don't forget that some engines had super heaters as well.

 

Might it be possible to go to a preserved railway and ask to take a photo of the smokebox (not in steam of course)

[DCB]

Good point about the smokebox dart, the midland used a ring of fiddly little catches for some obscure reason.    The dart engaged when the door handles were vertical, downwards almost invariably, not at some of the queer angles modellers put them, Hornby Dublo 8F included.

[Leander]

Don't forget that some engines had super heaters as well.

Not inside a 3F 'Jinty' smokebox though.

[uax6]

SE Finecast can do you the castings from the old Sutherland models/nucast Highland Railway Small Ben and Highland Banking tanks smokeboxes. These have a blast pipe and tubeplate in them (and the bar for the door lock). I don't know if they will be the right diameter for the jinty, but they will probably do....

 

Just give Dave a bell and ask...

 

Andy G

[Horsetan]

.... the midland used a ring of fiddly little catches for some obscure reason.  ....

 

Possibly because they thought using these smokebox "dogs" was a more reliable method of sealing the door against the ring, with less likelihood of distortion at the outer edge.

[ianLMS]

Wow - thank you all for the extremely detailed information - clearly this site has the most helpful, knowledgeable and friendly folks who are willing to help anyone achieve a higher standard of modelling. The photo's were very interesting, especially the inside of a smoke box. Styrene sheet, drill and tubing at the ready!! As soon as I get chance to hack off the front end of my Jinty I will report on progress.

 

Many thanks

Ian

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Any ideas on what the inside would look like...

Before the hacking commences, it's worth saying that what it looks like is 'dark' to anyone standing outside looking in. Relatively little light is admitted, and all internal surfaces are non-reflecting to a large degree; because as already mentioned the interior is a heavily corroded surface, and the smokebox char (a mix of ash, part burned coal and soot) which is a very dark grey, sticketh like shit to a shovel all over it as a result. It's not unknown for the inexperienced putting their head inside for a closer look the first time, promptly knocking said head against the petticoat below the chimney. Until the eye is well adapted to the low light level you just don't see this typically foot and a half wide piece up top in the general interior gloom!

 

All of which is a long way around of saying that the most you easily see in 'internal features' with the smokebox door open is generally the blast pipe, since it is all of lower down, forward and directly under the chimney aperture and thus gets most of whatever light is coming in falling on it as a result. The tube plate holes aren't even a millimetre in diameter and you need to drill of the order of 150 in regular array, which by the time it is painted dark matt grey will not be readily visible. For the effort involved, far better served by detailing the exterior TBH.

[ianLMS]

Before the hacking commences, it's worth saying that what it looks like is 'dark' to anyone standing outside looking in. Relatively little light is admitted, and all internal surfaces are non-reflecting to a large degree; because as already mentioned the interior is a heavily corroded surface, and the smokebox char (a mix of ash, part burned coal and soot) which is a very dark grey, sticketh like shit to a shovel all over it as a result. It's not unknown for the inexperienced putting their head inside for a closer look the first time, promptly knocking said head against the petticoat below the chimney. Until the eye is well adapted to the low light level you just don't see this typically foot and a half wide piece up top in the general interior gloom!

 

All of which is a long way around of saying that the most you easily see in 'internal features' with the smokebox door open is generally the blast pipe, since it is all of lower down, forward and directly under the chimney aperture and thus gets most of whatever light is coming in falling on it as a result. The tube plate holes aren't even a millimetre in diameter and you need to drill of the order of 150 in regular array, which by the time it is painted dark matt grey will not be readily visible. For the effort involved, far better served by detailing the exterior TBH.

Thanks for that - I had planned on upgrading the exterior as well, but that's already covered on RMWeb under an older post. I will still have a go at the inside of the smoke-box as I think it will help the cameo scene a fair bit. It might be dark and roughly done, but I know it will be there. Similar to modeling the inside of the buildings. You cant see it unless you peer right in the window, but I know its there.

 

Ian

[Steamport Southport]

A good place to find photographs of the interior of locomotives is to look for locomotives getting scrapped or in Barry scrapyard. The smokebox door was often one of the first things to disappear as it was easy to remove.

 

 

 

Jason

[ejstubbs]

Not a Jinty - actually the Llangollen Railway's 57xx number 7754, so still an inside-cylinder 0-6-0 tank - but I think it illustrates 34C's point quite well:

 

[57xx]

The dart engaged when the door handles were vertical, downwards almost invariably, not at some of the queer angles modellers put them, Hornby Dublo 8F included.

 

That only applies to the inner handle (which would work, and sometimes seen, pointing straight up). The outer handle was for locking the dart in place and would end up at a varieties of "queer" angles.

[ianLMS]

Thank you - All very interesting stuff and plenty of inspiration - lots to ponder over and decide how best to go forward.

[PenrithBeacon]

This will give you the info you need.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?search-alias=stripbooks&field-isbn=9781905184804

[RexAshton]

Good point about the smokebox dart, the midland used a ring of fiddly little catches for some obscure reason.    The dart engaged when the door handles were vertical, downwards almost invariably, not at some of the queer angles modellers put them, Hornby Dublo 8F included.

The inner handle locates vertically but I think the outer one can be at any angle as it locks the inner one in place.

[ianLMS]

This will give you the info you need.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?search-alias=stripbooks&field-isbn=9781905184804

Perfect - thank you - I will keep an eye out for a copy. £20 is more than I paid for the model lol!!!

[PenrithBeacon]

Perfect - thank you - I will keep an eye out for a copy. £20 is more than I paid for the model lol!!!

You're unlikely to get a copy for less, they're like hens teeth nowadays.

 

All the best

[Gordon A]

The bar across the smokebox shown in post#3 lifts out to make give easier access to the smokebox, and is not light.

 

Gordon A

[BR60103]

I was looking through a book Completely Loco from Silver Link today. Two photos show locos with their smokebox doors open. One has nothing visible beyond the bar. The other is at an exhibition and the whole inside of the smokebox seems to have been whitewashed.

[ianLMS]

So, I decided to take the plunge and I have stripped the poor little "Jinty" down to its bare bones. Contacts were defunct, so as a non-runner this was the perfect doner for this project. I took the interior out, sprayed it black and detailed levers, wheels etc. Also cut off the fake coal, the poor door handrails and chimney (accidental). I also removed the motor giving me lots more space inside the boiler.

 

I cut the shape of the boiler and smoke box from a sheet of styrene plastic, drilled lots of holes, painted it black, then stippled Humbrol "Rust" and "Smoke" weathering powders over it to give it the burnt, charred, rusty look. This forms the back of the smokebox, along with a pipe extending down from the chimney to draw up the steam/smoke etc.

 

I purchased a new chimney and smokebox door from Alan Gibson. The smokebox door would be ok if it was going to remain shut, but as my door needed to be open, I couldn't use it. It was made of brass and way too thick. So, with styrene sheet and architect hole template, I made me a new one. I also used short handrails and .33 handrail wire for the front and made a number plate (need to add number).

 

I am now in the process of re-painting the body, fixing the chimney, replacing the coal and rails, replacing the black plastic pipe with brass rod and fitting new buffers and screw links. Hopefully I will have photographs of progress so far uploaded tomorrow.

 

Ian

[PenrithBeacon]

The bar across the smokebox shown in post#3 lifts out to make give easier access to the smokebox, and is not light.

 

Gordon A

But the Jinties didn't have that bar. The smoke door was fastened by dog clips around its circumference.

[ianLMS]

Well, after making the first incision, it was too late to turn back. What was once a tidy little red 3F Jinty, 16440 has now turned into a black mess, a shadow of its former self!! Progress so far;

Hacked off smokebox door, scratchbuilt the boiler tube plate & smoke tube, re-painted the model black, weathered the inside of the smokebox, replaced the rectangle handrails on the doors for brass tubing, replaced the side handrails, fitted handrails and step to the front of the tank, replaced the coal bunker rails with scratchbuilt ones and added real coal, painted the interior of the cab, re-crafted the clack valve and added a few pipes, new Alan Gibson buffers and fitted vacuum pipes.

 

No laughing please...... this was my first locomotive re-modelling project and my first time re-painting a loco.

 

Since photo was taken I have scratchbuilt the brake rodding and added the screw couplings. I have yet to add in the plate at the rear of the coal bunker (forgot to do it when I put in the coal), and re-number/logo the loco using Pressfix (first time using the decals) decals. Smokebox door number will be a challenge mind!! Once all that is done, I will fit the scratchbuilt smokebox door and Springside fire-irons/lamps/tools I have just ordered plus add the cleaning men hard at work after I have weathered the whole loco.

 

Hope you enjoy my first attempt!!! more photo's to follow.