1940s GWR milk tanks livery help

[The Fatadder]

The next focus for stock buying for Brent is to put together the core of my Penzance – Kensington milk train. The formation is to be formed of 12 tanks plus full break, for which I need 8 of the six wheel tanks and 4 of the road rail tanks (which clearly will need scratch building).

 

Research has shown that there should be stock picked up from a number of different dairies on its way through the country, so my intention is to make the train up with a number of different liveries. My problem is that in the 147 period there are not many photos of wagons, and those that are visible in complete rakes are naturally filthy (which in the low resolution of the photo completely obscures the livery)

 

Did milk tanks follow the lead of PO mineral wagons and just have a small panel showing the owner (presumably on a silver tank?) or did they revert/maintain to the brightly coloured pre war liveries?

Brand wise I recall Express Dairies, Cow & Gate and some in Milk Marketing Board livery. Does this sound about right for the Plymouth – Exeter section of the working?

[Karhedron]

The dull silver livery (with a small owners plaque) started appearing after milk tanks were pooled by the MMB in 1942. However milk tanks were not exactly a high priority and the old liveries lingered on well into BR days on some tanks (sometimes even clearly enough to stand out from underneath the grime). If you are modelling the stretch between Plymouth and Exeter then you would only want dairies west of that location.

 

A slight complication arises here as some plants changed hands over the years. For example, the Lothwithiel creamery was originally built by Nestle in the 1930s. Some time later it was acquired by Dried Milk Products (DMP) somewhere prior to 1956. Eventually it ended up in the Unigate family. Sadly I don't have dates for these changes and that is just one creamery.

 

The creameries west of Exeter on the GWML were as follows:

 

Totnes (Cow and Gate)

Saltash (Daws creamery)

Lostwithiel (Nestle > DMP > Unigate)

Dolcoath Sidings (DMP)

St Erth (Primrose dairy)

Penzance (Newbridge diary)

 

Saltash, Camborne and Penzance were not directly rail-served. In each case, milk was driven from the creamery to the railside and pumped into the tanks. I have not seen milk tanks in DMP livery. This was actually a subsidiary of Cow and Gate so they may have used their tanks although I am not certain about this. I have not been able to find out who ran the Newbridge dairy at Penzance but I know the 2 milk tanks they dispatched were sent to Queens Park and Wandsworth Road in London. I think these were also owned by Cow and Gate although I am not certain. Primrose Dairy eventually ended up as part of Unigate but whether it had its own tankers or was another Cow and Gate subsidiary, I am not sure.

 

This suggests that most of the tankers coming out of the Dutchy in the 1940s would have been DMP/Cow and Gate. I haven't seen any photos of Cow and Gate milk tankers, all I know is they had a dark livery with white lettering but I cannot even tell you what colour it was. Dirty silver is always a safe bet but I do not know what proportion of the tankers would have been silver in the period you are modelling. 

[Karhedron]

Apparently DMP seem to have had milk tankers although this livery is not available RTR. As always, take care when modelling from other people's models rather than the prototype.

 

 

Here is the livery for Daws creamery.

 

https://www.gscalecentral.net/threads/bespoke-milk-tank-wagon.45378/

 

So at least 2 white liveries would seem to be appropriate.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Karhedron

[gwrrob]

I'd love one of those Rodda's tanks shewn whether they're right or wrong.

[The Fatadder]

Thanks

I think some custom transfers for the DMP wagons would be a good start, along with one in express blue and a handful in silver. If I can't manage the transfers dmp can have the silver ones!

 

The 3 off network presumably would be the ones using the road tanks on flat wagons.

 

Now for some shopping...

[kandc_au]

Here is the livery for Daws creamery.

 

https://www.gscalecentral.net/threads/bespoke-milk-tank-wagon.45378/

 

So at least 2 white liveries would seem to be appropriate.

 

The Fatadder,

At that link the first message underneath it was fom a driver who drove into the creamery in the 60's

Would it be worth your while dropping him  an e and seeing if you can get some more info from his memories?

 

Khris

[Karhedron]

I think some custom transfers for the DMP wagons would be a good start, along with one in express blue and a handful in silver. If I can't manage the transfers dmp can have the silver ones!

I don't think Express Dairies could be seen on that stretch of the GWML west of Exeter. Their produce from the South-west tended to go via the SR I think.

 

If you want a splash of colour, the Lostwithiel plant was owned by Nestle prior to DMP who I think used a dark blue livery. Here is a lovely sequence of shots from Britain from Above taken in 1937 while the plant was still owned by Nestle with a dark-coloured tank in residence. I have not been able to find a date for when DMP took it over.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

The van at the right-hand end of the building looks as though it could be a MICA- it seems to have four hatches in the roof.

[Karhedron]

A MICA would make sense for conveying perishables. Maybe cream or butter?

[melmerby]

The van at the right-hand end of the building looks as though it could be a MICA- it seems to have four hatches in the roof.

Something similar next to that LMS open which is loaded with drums.

 

keith

 

EDIT loads of the old style milk churns around as well

Edited August 4, 2017 by melmerby

[Fat Controller]

Something similar next to that LMS open which is loaded with drums.

 

keith

 

EDIT loads of the old style milk churns around as well

The drums could be for whey, a liquid by-product of cream-churning, used for animal feed amongst other things.

[Miss Prism]

The van at the right-hand end of the building looks as though it could be a MICA

 

It is.

[The Fatadder]

Kind of answering my own question somewhat, after being woken up at a ridiculously early hour by the baby I was looking in Russell Great Western Coaches Appendix Vol2 for some details on a siphon I am planning to detail over the weekend.  While the book was out I figured it was worth a quick look, given that the milk tanks are NPCCS I figured it may be in there (despite not being “brown stock”. 

 

I was pleased to find a couple of ex works photos of tanks taken post war.

 

Starting with the Diagram O53 in C W S livery (i.e. what looks to be a dark blue tank with a panel with  painted white lettering

C W S ltd

Milk Department

99 Leman Street

London E1

 

(which makes it a little disappointing that there doesn’t appear to be a CWS dairy along the route, as the different platform would be visually appealing.)

 

 

The second photos is of a Diag. O54, Again it looks like it has a blue tank with white lettering

Express Dairy

Co. Ltd

 

And full length platforms

 

The next is a Diag. O55, again white lettering (but more akin to pre war liveries with large letters the length of the wagon), tank looks similar in colour to the previous two

APLIN & BARRETT LIMITED

 

 

Finally is a 1948 photo of a Diag. O58, which is in a very interesting condition with a Great Western style W on the solebar.  Again it looks like it is a dark blue tank with small white lettering for

COW & GATE Ltd   

It also has an interesting panel between the middle saddles stating that the two compartments should be loaded to the same level.

 

The other point of interest is a double spread of photos showing road tank carrying wagons, I would say looking at those a pretty good representation could be made using a Hornby or Dapol chassis as a basis (along with a scratch built lorry)

 

 

So summing up,

I think for my milk service through Brent, I will need to have picked up wagons a

Penzance (2 lorries),

St Erth (2 tanks Primrose Dairy seems to have been independent up until takeover by United, as the internet doesn’t seem to come up with a date of that take over I'm have inclined to go with United branded tanks with one in pre war livery.)

Dolcoath (2 tanks DMP  / Cow & Gate)

Lostwithiel (2 tanks DMP / Cow & Gate) – Possibly a tank in heavily weathered Nestle would be a good addition here

Saltash (1 lorry )

Then on the back will be a K40 or K41 full break (no 55 or 142)

 

Thanks for all the help, I think that the above gives me a representative formation.  Now to get buying up wagons to detail and repaint…

[Karhedron]

There are some nice shots of milk tankers here. Sadly they are B&W so we can only guess at the actual colours.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/rolling-stock/wagons/milk-tanks/

 

Interestingly there is a dark United Dairies livery which I had not seen before but which is also visible in this photo from Wooton Bassett.

 

 

 

I would guess this is a later livery that replaced the more familiar white one. The white United Dairies livery can be seen on this earlier photo which shows the 4-wheeled tankers used when the dairy was first opened. I believe these were all rebuilt as 6-wheelers by 1937.

 

[kandc_au]

In that middle pic: Does that siding go under the dairy???

 

Khris

[Il Grifone]

The pictures clearly show the normal milk tank livery - muck! (All the tanks I saw in the fifties were this colour - not really convincing considering the content, though this obviously didn't come into contact with the exterior of the tank.

 

The two MICAS B are also this colour. The one by the Nestlé building looks like it has had part of the doors wiped partly clean. The roof appears cleaner than the sides and ends

Edited August 5, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Karhedron]

Prior to WW2, tanks were kept somewhat cleaner on the outside too so the stylish liveries were visible. Here is the Dorrington Milk in 1937 and you can see the tankers are clean and shiny in IMS livery.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

I suspect there was a gradual change in the material used for the outer wrapping around the insulation. In the 1930s, it would have been thin mild steel, perhaps galvanised, and painted. Post WW2, when aluminium became readily available, this was used; as it didn't rust, there was no need to paint it. Unfortunately, it soon acquired a patina from a mixture of spilt milk and the usual sources of weathering, giving the rather unappetising-looking wagons of later years.

[Il Grifone]

The UD and IMS tanks in the above pictures appear to be new vehicles.

The white UD ones have adjacent numbers and look to be undergoing a post delivery inspection. The IMS tanks stand out from everything else in their cleanliness, underframes included.

 

I understand the four wheel tanks revealed an instability at speed* and were rapidly rebuilt with six wheels.

 

*A phenomenon which was to repeat itself....

[melmerby]

There is a picture of a United Dairies' tank on a GW diagram O39 (1934-7) 6 wheel underframe in Russell's GW Coaches (The Brown Vehicles)

 

It appears to be in a polished mirror finish as everything around it can be seen reflected on the surface.

It is shown a Swindon when built in 1937.

 

There is also a few shots of other dairy company vehicles.

One of diagram O42, (1935-9) for Express Dairy says the tanks were made of Stainless Steel.

Some tanks have a "sun shade" which sits over the top half of the tank.

 

Keith

 

Edited to make sense!

Edited August 6, 2017 by melmerby

[57xx]

Those aerial pictures are so full of character and detail. The Mica with the very clean roof is one in the eye for "You never saw white roofs in service, they didn't stay white long enough". I'm surprised at just how grubby the sides are considering it's normally white livery! So many other little details there when you look, the bike leaned against the end of the main building, the sole car parked up, the staff all coming out too look at the plane flying over, signal with the sighting board, the huge amount of churns all around the site. Would the two sheeted opens next to the other Mica be china clay wagons? (based on the very light colour of the underframes)

[Fat Controller]

In that middle pic: Does that siding go under the dairy???

 

Khris

And if it does, how are tanks positioned for loading, given the board stating ' ENGINES must not pass this BOARD' ? Having the loading sidings at a lower level than the dairy makes sense, as it reduces the amount of pumping required. That series of arches is curious; it's almost as though it was planned to have an overall roof.

Where was this dairy? I looked at the plan of Wooton Bassett in Clark Volume 1, but couldn't see anything obvious.

[melmerby]

 

Where was this dairy? I looked at the plan of Wooton Bassett in Clark Volume 1, but couldn't see anything obvious.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/106026520

 

Keith

 

EDIT

The siding is shown on the signalling diagram coming off the continuation Eastwards (just above the name board picture that's looking West) complete with the private siding ground frame.

Edited August 6, 2017 by melmerby

[chrisf]

I cannot say whether Saltash traffic was conveyed by lorry in 1947 but it certainly went in rail tanks of the conventional kind by the 1950s/1960s.  Despite what is said in a recent book, Saltash traffic was conveyed to and from Plymouth by local passenger and was added to the Penzance milk at Plymouth.

 

Chris

[NHY 581]

Just to re ignite this topic, am I safe ground if I were to heavily weather the milk tanks on a layout set 1945/47?

 

By heavily weather I mean typical 1960s condition.

 

 

Rob.