Noisy coal wagons to Longannet

[Welly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8629833.stm

 

An MSP is trying to get Scottish Power to force DB Schenker to use quieter coal wagons on the Longannet robbies.

 

Not sure offhand of the difference between the types favoured by DBS and FL?

 

Look what the BBC chose to illustrate this story!

[beast66606]

The regular Whatley - Longannet empties hauled by a class 59 takes the SAC line at Stirling ?

[f#m]

dont take this comment to seriously cause its probably wrong but is the problem the wagons or the moany people of alloa just not being used to trains going by, the whole time the MGRs were running through dunfermline from thornton there wasn't a single noise complaint that i remember reading of(correct me if im wrong)

 

so the answer would be for the people effected to grow a pair and deal with a little noise.

[pudzyp]

dont take this comment to seriously cause its probably wrong but is the problem the wagons or the moany people of alloa just not being used to trains going by, the whole time the MGRs were running through dunfermline from thornton there wasn't a single noise complaint that i remember reading of(correct me if im wrong)

 

so the answer would be for the people effected to grow a pair and deal with a little noise.

Oi not all of us from alloa are moany especially about our railway line lol think the main difference is that freightliner's coal trains don't seem to be as long as the db schenker one's hence less noise. Some of us in alloa really love our rail line and our coal workings ;-)

[scottishlocos]

i stay close to the Dunfermline - Thornton line and i miss the coal trains you only really heard them when window open

[f#m]

Oi not all of us from alloa are moany especially about our railway line lol think the main difference is that freightliner's coal trains don't seem to be as long as the db schenker one's hence less noise. Some of us in alloa really love our rail line and our coal workings ;-)

Aye it wasn't very fair to say just Alloa and that all people in Alloa are moany, sorry for that, but the point still stands is it really the trains or just that the people in the effected area arn't used to the noise from them?

[pudzyp]

Aye it wasn't very fair to say just Alloa and that all people in Alloa are moany, sorry for that, but the point still stands is it really the trains or just that the people in the effected area arn't used to the noise from them?

There is a minority who complain to our local press about the noise. To put it in context no trains ran on that line since the 60's i think and then some heavy coal workings start coming along at all times of day and night its a shock for people. I would say that the railway line has really benefited clackmannanshire for the better and these stories about noise disruption really are by a small minority

['CHARD]

It does come as a shock for people who, don't forget, in the majority of cases known nothing and care little about railways unless and until they're inconvenienced by one.

 

It's hardly the MSP's place to be meddling in rolling stock provision, when a more salient point might be to educate local residents in how many thousands of lorry movements have been avoided along their (presumably inadequate, as local press always describe it) road network, with the very real and apparent damage that does.

 

On the point of noise and vibration, if the rail corridor has always been designated as such, then locals won't have a leg to stand on. However, if, as I think it is for part of its length, the line is classed as new build, then there may be agreed levels of ground-borne noise and vibration within which Network Rail as the infrastructure provider has to operate. Yes, it's NR's infrastructure to use as intensively as it wishes, but if the trackform is inadequate for the duty it's seeing, then there may be recourse to adopting more track-friendly wagons, as beefing-up the p-way's no easy task once it's built and moreover in use.

[Pennine MC]

It does come as a shock for people who, don't forget, in the majority of cases known nothing and care little about railways unless and until they're inconvenienced by one.

 

...

 

On the point of noise and vibration, if the rail corridor has always been designated as such, then locals won't have a leg to stand on.

 

IIRC there was similar NIMBYism in Felixstowe over increased Freightliner traffic (containers, as it was then under BR, with throbbing great 37s) back in the early/mid 80s. I dont think the trains stopped running

['CHARD]

Ach, I remember the days when the Central Belt resounded to many a pair of throbbing great thirty-sevens....

 

However, on that ribald note...

[Guest Max Stafford]

These sad to55ers need to get their heads out of their nether regions and realise that there is still industry of sorts in this country and its needs come before their own selfish notions. If they don't like it they should **** off and live out in the country - in which case they'd probably complain when the farmer has to work through the night to exploit a weather window in harvest time. Of course, their lawnmowers and pressure washers are completely silent and won't bother the night-shift worker down the street.

 

Probably incomers to the area anyway.

 

Dave.

[pudzyp]

These sad to55ers need to get their heads out of their nether regions and realise that there is still industry of sorts in this country and its needs come before their own selfish notions. If they don't like it they should **** off and live out in the country - in which case they'd probably complain when the farmer has to work through the night to exploit a weather window in harvest time. Of course, their lawnmowers and pressure washers are completely silent and won't bother the night-shift worker down the street.

 

Probably incomers to the area anyway.

 

Dave.

 

 

Dave,

 

I couldnt agree more with your sentiment.

 

Thing is most of the complaints have come from people who have bought houses that were built within only a few feet of the railway line, its been well advertised for years that the line was reopening long before these people bought houses backing on to the railway line.

 

Also the track was never lifted from Stirling to Cambus as freight workings to Menstrie for Molases continued long after passenger trains to Alloa ceased years ago

 

People knew what they were buying into - i also note of the 120 homes that put in a claim to Network Rail for noise reduction measures only a handfull actually vibrated to a significant level to warrant any work being done

 

Its so true that its a case of NIMBYS. That railway line may only be a few miles long but it has brought a lot of good to the wee county, passenger numbers are way beyond anything either ScotRail or Transport Scotland predicted and also the freight workings as stated keep one of the few remaining large employers near here going.

 

I mean in the Alloa Advertiser there was a complaint by a resident in Alloa about the noise of the trains - her address??? The Junction, Alloa FFS if you buy a house in a development called the Junction and its beside a railway station surely she must have known there would be noise from it!

 

Anyhoo thats me said me piece on it

 

Like Chard with his 37's in the Central Belt im longing for the days of 37's coming back to Menstire - when you were a nipper that was a sight and sound to behold

[David Rickard]

My grandparents lived in a house which had a mainline one side, and a branch line the other. The main line (Aylesbury - London line) was constant DMUs rattling up and down, and the branch had the Calvert Binliners (back when it was BR at least) shuttling up and down - often stopping at a signal and waiting for an age to get into Aylesbury station. They were aware of that, as were all the residents, and it wasn't a major problem. Granted, the binliner getting stuck at the signal now and then became a slight problem for a while, but it faded away.

 

In the early nineties, Network Southeast bought all the nice shiny new Class 165s, and built storage sidings for them (which meant some massive earthworks - I remember the whole house shaking as the diggers rumbled by!). Again, not a big issue. That was until they left them running all night, often at full bore. Not only that, they installed massive floodlights, which shone right into the bedroom windows. The whole thing seemed to be done without any thought for the people who were already there. People were losing sleep, houses were full of fumes - it was a nightmare. I remember staying there one night and it was constant, all night, the engines running. You'd hear them idling, then all run up to full tilt for a while, then run back down. This cycle would continue all night, until they were collected and taken out to service in the morning. All the residents complained, and NSE gave the response that they WEREN'T doing this! It was a total denial for ages. Suddenly their tune changed, and they claimed it was the cleaners doing it! After a period of this going on (I don't know how long it was) it all stopped. My only guess, in hindsight, is that it was to put some running time on the engines and bed them in. I have no idea if it was done manually, or done via some control system.

 

You could call it NIMBYism (something I detest), but in this case, NSE changed the parameters of what the locals expected big time. More trains running on the line was never an issue, nor would extra freight have been really, but what NSE did was just stupid really.

[f#m]

If these towns are anything like here then chances are there will be sirens going at all hours as the police and ambulances go to deal with all the trouble, that is far far more annoying than the noise of a train could ever be, but we dont get letters to papers saying police cars should have their sirens removed so people can sleep cause that much like this is utter madness...

 

have these people not concidered that they wouldn't have any electricity without these trains going by also bye bye lights, cookers everything if they stop them.

['CHARD]

In the early nineties, Network Southeast bought all the nice shiny new Class 165s, and built storage sidings for them (which meant some massive earthworks - I remember the whole house shaking as the diggers rumbled by!). Again, not a big issue. That was until they left them running all night, often at full bore. Not only that, they installed massive floodlights, which shone right into the bedroom windows. The whole thing seemed to be done without any thought for the people who were already there. People were losing sleep, houses were full of fumes - it was a nightmare. I remember staying there one night and it was constant, all night, the engines running. You'd hear them idling, then all run up to full tilt for a while, then run back down. This cycle would continue all night, until they were collected and taken out to service in the morning. All the residents complained, and NSE gave the response that they WEREN'T doing this! It was a total denial for ages. Suddenly their tune changed, and they claimed it was the cleaners doing it! After a period of this going on (I don't know how long it was) it all stopped. My only guess, in hindsight, is that it was to put some running time on the engines and bed them in. I have no idea if it was done manually, or done via some control system.

 

 

It wasn't to get any engine hours on the units, the engines would power-up automatically on what we called at the time compressor speed up, building air. In fairness, they could and should have been switched off. We had them (165/1s) doing it 24/7 through the tissue-thin wall of our Portacabin at Reading Upper Triangle during commissioning/ introduction of the fleet, not helped by the fact that the full complement of shore supply hadn't gone in. There were a couple of field mods implemented to change the logic on the units, and IIRC the instructions/ discipline regarding working on or cleaning stabled units were also amended because it was recognised that not only was this irritating, it was also wasteful and caused premature wear and tear.

[Hammer]

It's hardly the MSP's place to be meddling in rolling stock provision, when a more salient point might be to educate local residents in how many thousands of lorry movements have been avoided along their (presumably inadequate, as local press always describe it) road network, with the very real and apparent damage that does.

 

At least he's actually seeking to benefit his constituents, however misguided his attempts may seem to us. It's a total case of NIMBY-ism, but much worse things he could be doing with his time.

Not sure the Scottish Government will be too pleased with their back-bencher's efforts mind. They (and Transport Scorland) went to a lot of trouble to get that line working and used.

[The Stationmaster]

Over the years I have been involved in supplying information and commentary on several cases such as this and they tend to end in victory for the railway.

 

One of the most amusing - in many respects - was from someone livng opposite East Usk yard at Newport. This character started a major campaign after changes in Speedlink working and the closure of Severn Tunnel Jcn yard resulted in additional shunting work - notwithstanding the fact that there were half a dozen running lines between him and the yard. He eventually got Newport Council to take up the cudgels and the case was all set to go to court until the Council saw BR's evidence. This showed that the railway and yard, as a shunting location, had been there for a long time before the house this bloke occupied had even been built.

 

I also went back about 40 years (at 10 year intervals) doing an analysis of all trains booked to call and work at East Usk and this showed that notwithstanding a small reduction in the preceding 4 or 5 years the overall level he was complaining about was lower than it had been for 40 years. And when I added in the 1938 figures things were rounded off nicely and the council dropped the case a few dauys before it was due in court.

 

The message is simple - if it's an old railway which has been brought back into use getting a case together is not easy for a complainant.

[Jenny Emily]

Unfortunately sometimes the NIMBYism wins, against all common sense. I seem to recall that the like up to Pensnett near Birmingham (mothballed and heavily overgrown but track still present IIRC) was put forward for reopening for freight traffic to avoid extra lorry movements. The NIMBYs mounted a campaign that resulted in the line not being reopened.

[Oldddudders]

NIMBY-ism is a fact of our time. Before the CTRL was built, when there were several possible routes across the Weald, there were all sorts of action groups to protect the local environment, each, of course covering only that route that affected their properties. Back in the 80s, I recall getting estate agents enquiring about train service patterns, current and future, on lines that - like Mike's example at East Usk - predated any housing.

 

Nor is it exclusively a British disease. The TGV line currently runs from Paris to a few km east of Le Mans, where the TGVs divert to ordinary tracks, at ordinary speeds. The proposed route for the TGV line west of LM is dotted with banners and other protests from French NIMBYs.

 

Man is essentially selfish!

[Trevellan]

As others have said, this sort of thing is commonplace. In the early 1990s I was working in local government and we received a complaint from a resident who had moved into a new development right next to the ECML at Brookmans Park. He didn’t like the noise of the trains! At first we thought about nominating him for a Darwin award, but we then found out that train drivers were hooting for a foot crossing that had been removed quite some time before. The General Aviation community have much the same problem – people move into an area with an active airfield and then complain about the noise and intrusion. There’s none so ###### as folks…

[Guest Max Stafford]

Folks like this serve to remind me why I prefer dogs to people...!

 

Dave.

[newbryford]

I'm with the "if there was a railway near your house when you bought it, then tough" brigade.

 

No doubt some of the NIMBY's on the CTRL are now making extra on the house sale by stating in the ad that it's "close to convenient public transport".

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Jenny Emily]

I was talking to a friend who worked for Salford council when the proposed Metrolink extension through Chorlton was mooted. He said there was a lot of NIMBYs there too. They tried to claim that the new tram route adjacent to their houses would lower the prices, and wanted compensation accordingly. The report done, however, predicted that house prices would rise, not fall, as they would have conveniant access to public transport.

['CHARD]

The 'sparks effect' or should that be 'tram' ? It's a very well known phenomenon, but try convincing those who are likely to benefit

 

For urban routes with closely spaced stops, you basically get a 200m corridor with instantly enhanced values once the service starts. However, when protecting the constructor or scheme promoter's interests from the NIMBYs, you're basically in a position of 'well, I couldn't possibly comment.' You wanna use this tactic to close down their complaints, but instead you simply have to reserve the company's position.

 

Not the same for freight-only routes, of course - that's when the road traffic benefits have to be brought into play.

 

Agh - don't drag me back to my old job - I was doing so well moving on

[woodenhead]

Wonder if the population of London Nimbys will create an outcry when the planes start to fly over London again after 7 days peace and quiet.