underbank56a Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Just wondering. What kind of price is reasonable to offer for a club's exhibition layout which is being retired. It's about 10 years old, OO scale, relatively small about 12 feet square, consisting of basically a double track circle with station, goods yard and engine shed to front and multi-track fiddle yard to back. It's fairly basic with kit built and ready build buildings and basic scenery. I've done a rough costing of the components if bought new today, i.e. number of points, motors, couple of boxes of flexitrack, a dozen or so kit buildings, rough costings for wood for legs and baseboard, and a provision for scenic powders, trees, etc and come up with around £700-£900 as it really isn't that complicated nor cutting edge! Now, I just don't know what to offer for it and would like any feedback from club members who've been involved with selling a layout. If I wanted to recreate it and build a new one, it's going to cost say £800 plus a lot of my time and will probably be average quality (if ever completed!). Getting something similar professionally built is going to cost around £2k I would imagine. BUT, the layout is 10 years old and must have been knocked about on the exhibition circuit so will have "issues" and may need repairs - after all there must be a reason it's being taken off the circuit and not even being needed for club member use in the club rooms! At the moment, they're saying "make an offer" and they'll either accept it or will put it up for bids at their next exhibition (it's last outing!). I don't want to make too high an offer that means I've overpaid for it, but don't want to insult by making too low an offer and then risking losing it if it goes to bids. I can just about stretch to £1,000 but that leaves nothing in the kitty if it needs repairs and nothing for me to personalise it at all so I'd like it for less but is that realistic? If the layout was your's, how would you react to that kind of offer? Would you be laughing all the way to the bank or would you be insulted? Sorry, don't want to identify the layout as I don't want any competition!!!! Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted January 28, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 28, 2011 We have a similar problem in our Club as we have a layout for sale. One of the members deals in second hand and has a table at swapmeets and shows - when offered fixed layouts he puts hardly any value on secondhand track, allows a pound or two for points and similar for buildings that he can salvage and resell as they take so long to dismantle - of course he is more interested in the stock that goes with it. Proper portable layouts are a different matter and he valued ours at about half what it had originally cost. As PMP has said - it all depends what you can afford and what you think it's worth. Just because you have a sum of money available don't rush to spend it all - start with a low bid and you might be surprised and find it accepted. If the actual cost was £700 then you might like to start at £350 - you can always offer more if that is rejected. Good Luck Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Max Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 To put things into perspective, if you read Model Railway Journal no.202, an extensive em gauge layout of Ambergate station was bought on ebay for a little over £150. I have seen this layout on many occasions and it is a brilliant layour and has a lot of detail. This is clearly very cheap for a layout that is largely handbuilt but I would guess in this instance the limiting factor for potential bidders would have been have you got the space to erect and run the layout. Clearly the builders of any layout will wish to recover as much as possible for the many valuable man hours incurred in the construction, they will probably be looking to fund their next layout from the sale. But like anything it is only worth what you are willing to pay for it, not so much in material terms but more to do with the tiem you will save in construction and most importantly does it give a lavel of build quality that is better than you could possibly acheive yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2011 I would agree you want to see it set up and run to see if it needs any tweaks each time. If it's in good condition then surely they would want roughly what the recyclable parts cost or they may as well strip it for parts for another layout. Complicated electrics can be a problem in the future so don't pay over the top thinking they are worth more unless they are easy to replace with another commercial system of similar value if they were to fail. Ie if you pay an extra £100 for auto signals weigh up what an auto sequencer etc would cost from someone like Heathcote. Valuing the time and effort is far more difficult as it's done for fun rather than as a commercial venture in the first place. That value really comes down to desirability and whether they are likely to get alternative bids. If I were to sell my layout I would want at least the price of replacing points, point motors, signals, buildings, catenary, trees and figures as these are easy to recycle for another project. The frame, grass, rocks etc that can't be removed with being destroyed are more like a painting so I would just decide on a value to add to the above list. I would use your rough estimate as a good guide and offer just below so if they say yes you are in luck and if they want to think about it you are in a good position to ask how much more they were thinking and then aim to meet somewhere in the middle. This as you determined will leave you with a kitty to personalise it or repair anything. At the end of the day with all the ready to plant buildings these days you can always buy the baseboards and then slowly build it, spreading the cost, if their expectation is too high for your budget. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 First off I presume the layout sale doesn't include any stock. If the layout is 10 years old then the majority of the layout components have little actual value. The only value this layout has is the value it has as an exhibition layout if it was widely thought of in modeling circles. You'd be surprised how little these layouts make. There was one which came up for sale on E Bay I think some time ago & it made very little even though it looked quite nice. Unless you know this layout & its construction very well you could end up with your own worst nightmare. Judging by your description it doesn't sound to exciting. Take a look at the layout at its next exhibition & speak to the operators. Take a good look under the baseboards to see how its constructed & wired. Is the wiring color coded & labeled & is there a wiring book or diagrams kept so you know where you're going in the event of a problem. What you don't need is a layout which needs rewiring because you can't find your was round it because all the wiring looks the same like a birds nest.What kind of track & points are used & how are they operated. See how it runs at exhibition. Does it suffer from any problems ? If after all that you are satisfied then make a small offer. Without seeing the layout I would have no idea of how much you should offer but unless its very special it wont be more than a couple of hundred. If you want to give me more details off forum then by all means do so. Don't worry as I am not interested in bidding as for one I don't live in the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 Clearly the builders of any layout will wish to recover as much as possible for the many valuable man hours incurred in the construction, they will probably be looking to fund their next layout from the sale. But like anything it is only worth what you are willing to pay for it, not so much in material terms but more to do with the tiem you will save in construction and most importantly does it give a lavel of build quality that is better than you could possibly acheive yourself. -assuming you are able to speak to the club directly why not ask what they are hoping to achieve from the sale of the layout, sometimes they will be needing the space more than the money and other times the money more than the space. I noticed you mentioned the bit about the 'bids at last exhibition' you could reasonably ask what price they would be looking for to gaurantee the sale to you, and then you can decide whether you think its worth that or not, if it sounds well inflated for what the layout is you might then be better off putting a bid in at the exhibition, but at least you might have some idea? HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 To quote someone I once knew: "Don't be the buyer AND the seller"!!! In other words, let them tell you how much they want for it! HTH, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think that one thing to take into account with a 10 year old layout is how much it will cost to bring it up to modernn standards. For instance, are the points electrofrog or insulfrog and, if the latter, what would it cost to replace them with electrofrog in order to give smoother and more reliable running through the points. Also what code is the track. Code 100 or 85 ??. Would you consider replacing any of it ?? After 10 years on the exhibition circuit some of the wiring will probably need replacing. The extent and cost can only really be assesed after a thorough physical examination of it. Obviously at 10 years old it will be wired for DC control. Would you consider upgrading it to DCC and, if so, how easy would that be. i.e. can all of the blocks be made live at the same time or would more re-wiring be necessary. Incidentally, does it come complete with the controllers ?? Taking all of the above into account and with your estimate that it would cost you about £800 to build it today I would not be inclined to offer more than £150 to £200 for it but then I would not buy someone elses hand-me-down layout in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 29, 2011 What is it worth to you? That should be the ultimate deciding factor. I'm sure you will want to add your own touches to make the layout your own so that also needs to be taken into account. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 At the moment, they're saying "make an offer" and they'll either accept it or will put it up for bids at their next exhibition (it's last outing!). I don't want to make too high an offer that means I've overpaid for it, but don't want to insult by making too low an offer and then risking losing it if it goes to bids. I can just about stretch to £1,000 but that leaves nothing in the kitty if it needs repairs and nothing for me to personalise it at all so I'd like it for less but is that realistic? If the layout was your's, how would you react to that kind of offer? Would you be laughing all the way to the bank or would you be insulted? In addition to what has already been mentioned ... It sounds as though you would be very disappointed in not acquiring this item. I think you need to proceed with less haste. If the club members will not give you a number then I too would give a low bid. If the bid is rejected, you can then submit your question of 'how much?' . If there is still no solid answer, then frankly I would let them put it out to bid on the layout's last outing and see what happens - if it's sold to someone else then that's the way it is (water under the bridge, experience etc...°. If they come back with a counter offer, then you should have already prepared a maximum value (say twice your original offer) - if their number falls under (or is slightly higher than) the max value you have set, then it should not be too difficult to conclude / haggle a final price. If it is significantly higher, then just walk away... dilbert Edit for typos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 You'd be surprised how little these layouts make. There was one which came up for sale on E Bay I think some time ago & it made very little even though it looked quite nice. ... Without seeing the layout I would have no idea of how much you should offer but unless its very special it wont be more than a couple of hundred. There was one layout that apparently sold on the 'Bay last year for £999.99 I agree generally with Tony, without even seeing the layout. A layout has to be something pretty special to make in excess of £500 and on a ten year old, the price certainly shouldnt reflect the value of components at present day prices. If it's in a more 'specialised' gauge (for instance EM rather than OO), that will also tend to limit its appeal on the wider market (snip) Havent requoted Dil's post, simply because it's right on the money, so to speak Not many of us relish the thought of haggling, but if both sides recognise the realities of the situation, it shouldnt be too bad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think a few of the comments above suggesting that a layout will be worn out after ten years depends a lot on the quality of construction in the first place. If a layout is well designed and constructed for transport then there's no reason for it to need heavy repairs. In four years on the circuit mine has only needed the paint on the front valance touching up as the transport cradles, board joins and electrical connections were designed with transport in mind. As mentioned by others the two main variables are what they think it's worth and what you do. If they won't talk prices then they will be holding out for highest offer and I would want to look very closely at it working and being set up to ensure there were no surprises. Some layouts go cheap but they are usually because the owner is in a hurry for some cash or cannot reuse any bits on the next project. I've seen good layouts surpass what the sum of parts are worth if they are desirable to several people as they are treated more like a commissioned layout for value. It's difficult to assess value without seeing it and if it is achievable with a commercial baseboard and ready to plant buildings don't underestimate the extra pride you will feel even if you have to redo things as your skills improve. Your original post says you think your skills would only produce an average layout, remember as you work your skills will improve and there's lots of help on here so you may end up with something just as good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
underbank56a Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Thank you for all the replies. It's good to hear other perspectives on it. I've seen it running many times at exhibitions but I didn't think to ask to watch it being set up nor check underneath for wiring etc. It is a reputable club with several decent exhibition layouts, so I assumed it would be to professional standards, but that's certainly something I'll check out before taking things too far. I know that I could make a similar layout myself as I've been interested in the hobby for about 35 years and have had several small end-to-end layouts over the years and been a member of a club, but I've been trying to build a larger layout for a few years now as I've got a spare room but I'm on my third attempt and really struggling to find the time - first time I went for something too big and complicated and ended up giving up, and starting again, and now on my third attempt at a much simpler and smaller version and still struggling to find the time to make it into anything worthwhile, so it's time to buy something like this or give it up and wait until I retire! You've all given me a lot to think about and your comments are all much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I have some cynical questions. So what happens if they don't sell? Is it going to go into the skip? Why aren't the club recovering the material for re-use? Or is it so old/damaged that they don't want to? Why don't they want it as a test track? Or is it just space? What's the cost, relative to today's selling price, of a ten year old car that's been 'looked after' but 'used'? This layout has been on the exhibition circuit, after all, and would qualify on both those counts. (less cynical question) How do you know that you can't construct something as good? A grand will buy lots of tools with construction aids and you'll (as has been said) increase your skills as you build. Are you going to regret the chance of finding out it's no good and having to scrap the lot because of little peccadilloes that you couldn't have foreseen? Do you have the skill to replace and rewire the double slip that's key to the station throat without which nothing runs? If you have then you have many of the skills needed to build new. Is the wood disease free? Do you want to pay money to Rentokil for the rest of the house? Do you really like the layout? Is it somewhere for your existing collection of trains to run? Or are you going to have to restock? Is the layout, or what you're going to be getting, really 'exhibition quality'? Does the stock (probably members own) so add the value that you're going to spend out more than you would have to satisfy yourself. All this said, it's what value YOU place on the layout. It'll be your train set after all. Just my 2p worth, which may be worth less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 ....... Just my 2p worth, which may be worth less. I think it may be worth a little bit more than than that ... I would offer a £150 and see where it goes from there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mudmagnet Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 Having sold four small exhibtion layouts over the years, one from an advert in Railway Modeller and another on Ebay, one to a friend and the fourth at an exhibition - I found it difficult to set a price. It's almost a case of 'picking a sensible figure from the air'. Not much help I know, but at the end of the day it's value is what someone is willing to pay and nothing to do with its true value. Simply adding up the cost of the components to get a figure is largely irrelevant, and don't even try to add in any cost for 'labour'. You have to consider as a buyer (and personally I would want to build my own so can't offer any practical advice), what 'value' the layout has to you - i.e. how much enjoyment will you get from operating rather than building and think that this the simplest breakdown. As has been said before, it is very difficult to comment having not seen the layout, and obviuously you have good reasons for not giving details. I would suggest offering a low, but sensible offer and see what response you get. It sounds to me that the club do not know what they want either (or have a high figure in mind and don't want to offend anyone). There is not gaurrantee that they will get any offers at the exhibition, depends entirely on who comes through the door, whether they are interested in the layout and how much money they want to spend, I suspect that most people coming to a show to find a layout for sale, will probably not want to pay too much anyway and may go away needing to think about anyway. You could offer them a price, see what happens and leave it until the exhibition on the agreement that if they get a higher offer that they give you the option to counter offer - if you want to get into a 'bidding war' that is. Good luck and hope that this works out for you, either way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 What do the current owners think the value might be...? if they appreciate it's a bit of a pup then a few hundred pounds of goodwill would be a good start towards it's replacement, then again if they think they're going to get bids at commercial rates they'll probably be disapointed. It's scrap value would be a token few quid, reusing benchwork, pointwork and motors isn't everybody's cup of tea and is often a false economy as you are inheriting problems from the previous layout. It's also a bit of an odd size, being too wide for most domestic garages and refitting the boards into a loft might be tricky. It certainly brings the insurance value of some layouts into question... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 You can't expect to sell a well used, older (10 years plus ) exhibition layout for anything more than a nominal sum. For one, wear, and tear over that period would preclude a decent premium price, unless it is a 'classic' famous (within the hobby) layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Personally I would limit my offer to around the £350 perhaps up to £400 mark Its not new or nearly new its 10 years old! So it has been presumably well used. It will more than likely need at least some work to bring it up to reasonable standards, so you may have some aditional costs involved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the plus side you would not be starting from scratch so you will have saved yourself a lot of time and work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I have sympathy having "bid" on a couple of "old" expo layouts only to be disappointed. Each time I bid what I though t it was worth rather than what I was prepared to pay for it. That is the problem of the sealed bid or make me an offer type of sale. I think you always have to factor in that a layout is second-hand, if it was built 10 years ago and has seen regular use - it might just be worth the s/h value of its recoverable parts (they will be few, if it has been well used) As with everything the seller will overvalue, and so will the buyer but again with the type of sale most of these go through the buyer may not have the opportunity to raise an offer in line with/above other bidders. Most of these layouts find difficulty finding a home big enough and the transportation has to be factored in. Those who have seen MRJ204 will have seen Aylesbury LNWR is for sale, no guide price, and you will need quite a big room and pantechnicon to move it. Undoubtedly a very nice layout but at what price and for what market - another club acquisition or export sale surely? The first step is knowing that the layout is for sale. Some of the rubbish seen on ebay is at "as new" reserve prices, it amazes me that they sell at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 29, 2011 It certainly brings the insurance value of some layouts into question... Not really... In terms of insurance I treat layouts and stock as I would my household coverage, or personal effects on my holiday cover; i.e. new for old. For these I do factor in how much it would cost to replace the layout and stock like for like - even if prices have since increased. If I get my items nicked, or damaged, I would expect to replace them with what is lost - and the insurance would consider the same. Considering second-hand resale value of a layout would be different to insurance value; as most people would not consider buying a ten year old layout for the same price as it would cost to build it brand new - unless it was very special. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 You can't expect to sell a well used, older (10 years plus ) exhibition layout for anything more than a nominal sum. For one, wear, and tear over that period would preclude a decent premium price, unless it is a 'classic' famous (within the hobby) layout. Never say never Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 As we've seen above opinion varies a lot but at the end of the day there might be 10 people saying it's not worth it but it only requires one where the buyer and seller agree on the value as it means more to both of them. Paying more than they expect is a hazard of guaranteeing what you desire. Think of any secondhand item and it's the desirability that increases value and that can even mean for something worn out or damaged from store, just think of all those big steamy things from Barry. To me a vintage Ferrari is worth less than my day to day car as I don't percieve any value to it for looks or image alone. I think the 10 years old arguement for being worn out may apply to some but a club layout we have has been modified twice and is effectively new with first rate wiring and works really well. Updating may be a result of worn parts, damage or just recognition that techniques and skill have improved so the seller may overprice in some eyes but at the end of the day it's their decision whether they let it go or not. Make an offer of what it's worth to you but if they are thinking of putting it up for bids it would be unfair of them to then allow you to gazump someone else, with a higher offer, who has no chance to respond. If they do it by sealed bid then I hope they'd honour the process fairly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2011 Having recently sold Lotty I can add a few comments. The replacement value of some of the items sold dictated some of the price as we could reuse them, now we have to replace them. Things like tortoise motors and accessory decoders add to the price. As has been said, a mutually agreeable price is the best way forward, and as for everything, the value is only what someone will pay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 As has been said, a mutually agreeable price is the best way forward, and as for everything, the value is only what someone will pay. Very true. One of the reasons 2nd hand layouts tend not to command very good prices is that a layout is very much a personal thing. No matter how good the layout, I would not be tempted to offer big money for a layout based on a region/era that did not interest me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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