Stopfexpress Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I was reading through an old magazine recently, and in it, it said that 00 gauge was made around WW2 specifically for british ouline as the prototypes were too small to motor.But surely now the manufactures would be able to change this to 1:87 scales N gauge have been reaching marvellous standards with powerful motors that are available now. To me it seems logical but if its not please let me know if its not possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Yes; it is perfectly possible these days but the market is too far down the road. The best time for any revolution to have taken place was at the end of the 70s when Airfix and Pailtoy came to the market. To stand their best chance of success though they had to conform with the norm. HO offerings of UK outline from Lima and Fleischmann never succeeded in our parochial marketplace and thus the die was forever cast. I think it was a shame that the opportunity was lost though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Rivarrossi also spring to mind with their stunning Royal Scot and Period II coaches. Everyone (modellers and manufacturers) are just too heavily invested in 4mm to the foot. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 There were a few tries at British HO. ISTR Rivarossi made a Royal Scot and coaches, Fleischmann(?) did a Warship and some green Bullied coaches and Roco did a nice Gronk. Unfortunately most of the British HO was Lima and not very good. I don't know whether Tri-ang Hornby's TT range lasted this long, but there would have been competition. My Father delighted in the 00 conflict. He always said that what made Britain great was our bizzare systems of units. He would have no truck with anything as obvious as 1:100! Ed PS Whoops, sorry John, you beat me to it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixteen 12by 10s Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I believe the Rivarrossi Scot was modelled to 3.7mm or there about's so it was compromise between 00 and H0 Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I believe the Rivarrossi Scot was modelled to 3.7mm or there about's so it was compromise between 00 and H0 Gary That's as may be but alongside the 4mm version it looked like a pygmy. A beautiful pygmy mind you. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The UK steam loco, especially those with splashers over wheels and outside cylinders and valve gear, is a tough proposition for commercial production in HO. (So for that matter are some European mainland models, especially of older prototypes, that share these characteristics.) What has to happen is expansion in the width to both get all the parts to fit while enabling the loco to negotiate set track curves. This does nothing for appearance, and the width expansion necessary typically scales in the 3.8 - 4mm /ft zone. An all 4mm/ft body on an HO gauged chassis is the better compromise, especially now that the width over the wheel faces is approximately correct in 4mm/ft. There is no doubt that UK post-steam traction and stock can be commercially rendered satisfactorily in HO. But as already mentioned, the momentum of the OO legacy resists that change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 24, 2011 A measurement of 3.7mm to the foot equates to 1/80 scale which was also used by Trix. Were not the only ones using 'odd' scales, the American 'O' scale standard is 1/48. Japanese 'HO' is 1/80 largely representing 3' 6" gauge prototypes which would be prototypical if 1/64 ('S' scale) was used instead on 16.5 mm track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2011 It makes no sense at all to use an exact-scale track gauge if you don't also use exact-scale wheel profiles. The result of using overscale RTR wheels on an exact-scale track gauge, as is done in H0 for example, is that all models have to be over scale width for running gear, splashers, axleboxes, brake gear, bogie side-frames etc., to make room for the wheels. This is the case for all H0 models and means that they are all overscale width. For UK steam-outline models with outside valve gear and splashers, a scale model in H0 is impossible. 00 gauge may be laughed at by the rest of the world, but it is in fact the best solution to the problem. It means that the loco bodies can be reasonably exact 4mm scale models and still have room for RTR running gear. Such models are ideal for those who want to convert them to EM and P4. Modellers in those gauges should give thanks for 00 gauge, because without it conversions to scale would involve some serious surgery to loco bodies and bogies to reduce them to scale width. H0 was not an opportunity missed -- it was a disaster avoided. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 A measurement of 3.7mm to the foot equates to 1/80 scale which was also used by Trix. Were not the only ones using 'odd' scales, the American 'O' scale standard is 1/48. Japanese 'HO' is 1/80 largely representing 3' 6" gauge prototypes which would be prototypical if 1/64 ('S' scale) was used instead on 16.5 mm track. Fleischmann went through a phase in the 1970s where some of their models were turned out at 1:82..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted August 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2011 Fleischmann went through a phase in the 1970s where some of their models were turned out at 1:82..... IIRC the Warship isn't particularly dimensionally accurate for HO, maybe that's one on them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stopfexpress Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Sorry I havent posted, internets on the blink. You all raised valid points there so as I cant really argue with my little expiriance. I never looked at the valve gear between the two seeing that they were that different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 For an insight into the reasons for and the history of 'OO' you might find this article from the Double O gauge Association website interesting. Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 There is also a British H0 society if you would like more information as to what is available and/or practicable. Geoff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted August 31, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 31, 2011 Andy has hit the nail on the head, OO is here to stay because there is a huge investment in it. Can you imagine the uproar if Bachmann and Hornby suddenly changed from OO to HO! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nile_Griffith Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I'm with Andy. It's an unfortunate fact of life that none of us are equipped with such an ability as to accurately see into the future, that goes for business too. I don't really imagine that any of those firms through the 50's, 60's and 70's actually sat there and said to themselves "Do you know what? Lets really screw things up for railway modellers in the future". I think a more honest appraisal, would have been a general assessment of the market on their part and going with which ever piece of advice that seemed to make most sense or was voiced the loudest. More so, with so many modellers and collectors now firmly entrenched in OO. It would be very difficult for manufacturers to find a market justification for the sort of scale production of British outline in HO. With an enthusiast having invested on average possibly in excess of a thousand pounds in loco's and rolling stock. it's an expensive pill to swallow to reformat to an HO standard and for the majority of consumers and lets not forget that not everyone who buys has quite such a knowing or critical eye. Is the bang worth the buck? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSB Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 00 probably is right for the train-set end of the market but I personaly have no interest in running main-line trains round tramway curves and 00 trains just look so out of proportion standing on H0 track! It would be a huge step forward if the major manufacturers were to offer a choice of 00 or EM wheelsets and PECO brought out the EM gauge track they were planning 30 or 40 years ago! I agree that it is now too late for a change to H0 by the major players. If Heljan had brought out their planned H0 Class 37 a few years ago (to be followed by some rolling stock) things might have been different. With regards to the quality of LIMA H0 wagons the Vanfit and mineral wagon were no worse than the 00 vehicles which replaced them. Let's face it - the general quality of British RTR models was pretty poor until quite recently especially when compared to the best European, American and Japanese offerings! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 00 probably is right for the train-set end of the market but I personaly have no interest in running main-line trains round tramway curves and 00 trains just look so out of proportion standing on H0 track! It would be a huge step forward if the major manufacturers were to offer a choice of 00 or EM wheelsets and PECO brought out the EM gauge track they were planning 30 or 40 years ago! I agree that it is now too late for a change to H0 by the major players. If Heljan had brought out their planned H0 Class 37 a few years ago (to be followed by some rolling stock) things might have been different. With regards to the quality of LIMA H0 wagons the Vanfit and mineral wagon were no worse than the 00 vehicles which replaced them. Let's face it - the general quality of British RTR models was pretty poor until quite recently especially when compared to the best European, American and Japanese offerings! Nobody is compelled to use 2nd radius curves in OO - unless of course you have severe space constraints. There is absolutely nothing stopping you laying 4' radius curves in OO (my layout uses nothing tighter than 2'6" radius and that is only in one place- it's not that large either) . And while Peco pointwork isn't ideal, proper OO flexible track is available readymade from at least 2 sources , and if you want to spend a little money Marcway will sell you "handbuilt to order" OO pointwork - so you don't even have to make it yourself , though some people have managed to mix Peco pointwork and SMP flexible track without great difficulty - Peco points have a slightly greater sleeper spacing than their flexible track. All that is needed to remove the objection completely is a couple of ready made OO points, which would be a lot more viable commercially than stocking an entire duplicate range with EM wheelsets (That sort of thing , with 2 rail and 3 rail ranges, helped sink Hornby Dublo and hasn't exactly helped Maerklin's travails) Heljan, by all accounts, turned up at their first Warley, took a quick look around , realised most stuff was in 4mm scale and there was not a British outline HO layout in site - and promptly forgot about HO 37s and went home and produced the 4mm scale TubbyDuff As far as Lima wagons were concerned, the fact that their first 4mm wagons weren't the bee's knees is irrelevant, because the vastly superior Airfix kit for the 16T mineral had been around for 15 years already, as had better vans from Hornby Dublo . Not to mention some very decent van kits from Ratio and some extremely good RTR vans from Airfix and Mainline which came out about the same time (1977-1978). It also bears saying that Lima helped reduce and hold back the standard of OO RTR in the 80s and 90s, because their models were invariably a little bit cheaper and a bit worse than the competition, and their quality of finish poorer. I give you the Lima Deltic - too short, wrong sized bogies and finished in a bilious flourescent Sherwood green. Whatever the limitations of the Hornby 47 which was it's slightly older contemporary, it was at least to scale, and a little better finished . After they went head to head with Hornby on the King and Lima's poorer model sank without trace they dropped steam and concentrated on things where there was no competition and the market would buy a downmarket product because there was nothing else available - ie diesels (Their 20 was in a great many respects a little worse than the Hornby Dublo model of twenty years earlier). And comparing the best overseas models with the general average of British RTR is by definition skewing the comparison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 ... All that is needed to remove the objection completely is a couple of ready made OO points... If Peco had the slightest interest they could make a new sleeper base for just their existing large radius OO point parts to test the market potential. ( If they really wanted to push the boat out, one piece point blades, metal check rails, a slightly flexible point base, and a plain tie bar with no over centre spring would 'ice the cake': all of it well within their expertise. ) As it is I am awaiting the emergence of an overseas competitor to produce a market changing product (integrated DCC decoder and motor fitted within the sleeper base is fully possible) and sweep them into oblivion... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 What is the incentive for Peco to produce better track? Their current product sells well and the minority not willing to accepts its shortcomings buy specialist track. They could invest a lot of money in new toolings but would they get much more sales? A better hope would be some other company to produce better RTR track in the hope of stealing Peco's share. Until there is some competition, there is no incentive for Peco to invest so heavily in revamping their existing range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2011 What is the incentive for Peco to produce better track? Their current product sells well and the minority not willing to accepts its shortcomings buy specialist track. They could invest a lot of money in new toolings but would they get much more sales? A better hope would be some other company to produce better RTR track in the hope of stealing Peco's share. Until there is some competition, there is no incentive for Peco to invest so heavily in revamping their existing range. I tend to agree. And the overseas competitor is not very visible yet, and probably won't be all the time the world has financial problems - setting up a new trackage system requires a great deal of development in multiple products, many of which need to come to market on day 1. And let's be fair to Peco, new products are coming along. In 16.5mm alone we've had Code 75 and Code 83 in relatively recent years. Their products do enable the average modeller to get a layout built fairly easily, and I can't see them being challenged in their breadth of scope for many years to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The old chestnut about British 'HO' comes up as regular a clockwork. It has always been available to those who are prepared to do a bit for themselves by scratchbuilding. Meantime, a whole industry plus a few thousand railway modellers are content to carry on regardless in the knowledge that if they ever tire of 4mm/00, there is always P4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 What is the incentive for Peco to produce better track? Their current product sells well ... Survival. You count the number of British companies that fell behind on innovation because they had the home market all sewn up: sales results as measured by market share were strong, and profit margins very satisfactory indeed, as the fully amortised investment meant that production costs were low relative to sale price. In comes a competitor or two with something new to offer; initially met complacently with a 'we own this market' attitude, and then - too late - recognised as a potent threat. Now the competing development has to be undertaken against a background of falling sales and eroding margins; the pressure is really on. Any slip now, perhaps the first iteration of the new product not performing to spec because the development was rushed or underfunded, and suddenly you are only one player in a market you no longer own. Now comes the squeeze, everybody starts cutting margin to survive: that's a game with a poor prognosis for the player in the high wage economy. The only way to safeguard the position, is the power play: maintain superiority so that competitors cannot get a toehold. Once the door is open it is too late. Armstrongs, BSA, Cossor, Decca, EMI, Ferguson.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think that rather undervalues Peco's outlook for the last 50 years. The unceasing criticism of Peco OO track is the sleeper dimension and spacing, which were designed, not for the home market - as per the majority of products of the other companies listed - but for export. While we know overseas companies can make marvellous OO models, they tend to be in batches to order. Offering an ongoing full line of track and accessories in a scale/gauge combination that is pretty well confined to the UK and certain Commonwealth nostalgia enthusiasts is not going to be very attractive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I asked a similar question to the OP a long time ago, before I set off on what most people (maybe rightly) considered to be a bit of a futile quest! The ensuing discussion on the possibilities and limitations of British HO may be found on this thread: http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 Other sites that might prove of relevance: http://www.british-ho.com http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/ ,,,and, if you're not easily scared: http://www.playcraftrailways.com/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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