Lack of contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit

[newbryford]

Despite a thread on too many "modern image" layouts, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/32184-top-heavy-with-modern-image-layouts-whys-that-then/page__view__findpost__p__338739 there appears to be a dearth of layouts that are moderately up-to-date (i.e post-2000) on the exhibition circuit. Examples that readily spring to mind are Widnes Vine Yard, Holland Park, Warren Lane, Blackmill and New Bryford (I had to include the last two for very obvious reasons!) If you have any other examples, then please add them here.

 

I want to exclude sectorisation and previous from this discussion, such as the likes of the excellent "Diesels In The Duchy" as they are no longer "contemporary", despite coming under the now over-used "modern image" term to describe anything that is post-1968 without steam.

 

I want to include layouts that are for exhibition use.

 

This point was brought home at the NEC Warley show. IIRC, there was only one layout running stock that was reasonably up-to-date with privatisation stock from EWS et al and that was Stafford's "Littleton Junction". With a show as large as the NEC, surely there should be a higher percentage of contemporary layouts? The same topic of lack of modern layouts has also been aired on the Wigan exhibition thread. (Nearly 40 layouts at Wigan)

 

Why is this?

 

Is it related to the over-used phrase "we model what we know", as this would lead to the conclusion that any younger than 25 or so is only allowed to model the privatisation era? (Yet, the layouts mentioned above aren't by sub-30-y-o modellers)

 

Is it because the perception of the contemporary raliway scene is that every freight is 66 hauled and every passenger train is a DMU (EMU)?

 

And yet, the modeller of the current scene is very well provided for with a decent quantity of quality models from the mainstream manufacturer.

 

I can't quite put my finger on the reason.

 

Please discuss.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[GC Jack]

Well, I travel a lot by rail.

 

The modern scene is "Every freight hauled by a 66 and every passenger train a multiple unit" for most of the time.

 

Its a real surprise and a pleasure to see something different but that's rare.

 

Standardisation doesn't seem to put USA modellers off. For my part I quite like seeing the railway as it is modelled, rather than the temptation - as I have seen with some modern layouts - to model it as they would like it to be. All loco hauled and mostly freight.

 

Jack

[cromptonnut]

Perhaps for a lot of people it's impossible to "keep up to date" with hideous new liveries being produced almost every five minutes? Of course you also have the problem of items not necessarily being available rtr, and of course not all of us are happy or confident with anything more than applying a bit of weathering to a new loco we've just spent over £100 on.

 

You also have to factor in that, as has already been said, generally modern railways are fairly boring and samey. Block trains of, say, 20 silver bullet tankers may look nice but they're hellish expensive to buy - assuming of course we have the space to run them.

 

Finally, I would suggest that you have to think what people want from 'exhibition layouts' - a lot of exhibition goers aren't the sort of people that will chat for hours about the 1923 working timetable and your beautifully detailed models but want to see trains running on multiple lines all the time, and ask if your handbuilt P4 trackwork is Peco or Hornby setrack. What we might build for our own enjoyment of some obscure prototype or specific location in a specific time period may get no more than a cursory glance from people, as although the modelling may be excellent if it's not something that interests them they'll look elsewhere.

 

A lot of modellers these days lack the skills or desire to do anything more than take it out of the box and stick it on the track - and if they can't see the latest Bachmann/Hornby/Heljan release whizzing round at 120mph they'll move on to something that does have it. Hence the amount of 'box shifters' prevalent at the large exhibitions like Warley.

[ColinW]

Have you forgotten Eldavo's Cramdin Yard that is a post 2000 based layout.

 

Colin

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

Finally, I would suggest that you have to think what people want from 'exhibition layouts' - a lot of exhibition goers aren't the sort of people that will chat for hours about the 1923 working timetable and your beautifully detailed models but want to see trains running on multiple lines all the time, and ask if your handbuilt P4 trackwork is Peco or Hornby setrack. What we might build for our own enjoyment of some obscure prototype or specific location in a specific time period may get no more than a cursory glance from people, as although the modelling may be excellent if it's not something that interests them they'll look elsewhere.

 

A lot of modellers these days lack the skills or desire to do anything more than take it out of the box and stick it on the track - and if they can't see the latest Bachmann/Hornby/Heljan release whizzing round at 120mph they'll move on to something that does have it. Hence the amount of 'box shifters' prevalent at the large exhibitions like Warley.

 

Well said!

 

Many "modellers" view of what a model of a railway should look like seems to be defined by what the RTR manufacturers produce and what people recall seeing. Hence post 1970s era layouts with lots of RTR locos and stock seem to me to be quite common. The overwhelming desire to own the latest release from Hornby, Bachmann, etc. (judging by some of the topics and postings on RMWeb) also increases the "suspension of disbelief" applied to a layout's rationale.

 

Put a pre-group P4 layout next to a RTR stocked year 2000 OO layout and you will usually find that the latter has more viewers (I've seen it happen). Why? Because most people can relate to the modern era layout (because it's what they've seen in the adverts and probably bought) and because they don't "understand" the P4 layout with it's strange little engines, etc.

 

The irony in this is that people will drive for miles to look at preserved steam railways that usually are an inaccurate agglomeration of items that wouldn't have been seen together, but don't go to observe the very thing that they are "modelling" but rely on someone else to do it for them.

 

Jol

[PaulRhB]

Possibly because many who are interested in the current scene are the younger modellers who don't have the room at home and don't belong to a club with enough members interested to create a group layout? Or as in my case already used the space for another contemporary continental layout? I've got the stock collected but it's going to require scrapping something else to create space and as the other layout has bookings into late 2012 so building a new one is still a year or so away.

I suspect with the arrival of Desiros there may be a few new layouts inspired but it takes a while to get through the system as they book shows so far ahead now. We took a friends layout this year and that was booked 3 years ago. Last year had quite a few so I suspect this year the Modern image section just had a bigger percentage of sectorisation than contemporary. Maybe someone needs to create a new term to cover the post privatisation era in a catchy term so exhibition managers can tell the difference?

Rail blue and Sectorisation or BR diesel & electric to displace Modern Image to cover contemporary? B)

On the continent they went for the Epoch system, which I have to look up all the time!, which can be infinitely expanded as new eras are defined but we seem to prefer names so rather than scrapping Modern image we just need to slot in another section and move MI ever onwards . . . . .

[10800]

Matford, P4 (currently being rebuilt). Was in MR not that long ago.

[Glorious NSE]

Despite a thread on too many "modern image" layouts, http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__338739 there appears to be a dearth of layouts that are moderately up-to-date (i.e post-2000) on the exhibition circuit. Examples that readily spring to mind are Widnes Vine Yard, Holland Park, Warren Lane, Blackmill and New Bryford (I had to include the last two for very obvious reasons!) If you have any other examples, then please add them here.

 

Hi Mick, there's a good few more in other scales - at Barrow the other month there was a very nice rendition of Banbury in N, it's still a work in progress but looking *very* good, there's a group on here building a layout based on Hinksey yard in N as well which I think could be rather good...

 

I think there's a lot of other 'current' layouts out there beyond those from what I can see, but I think 'credible' is maybe an important word. The ones you list are all credible and well modelled, but there's a lot out there which as others have noted are maybe what folk want the real railway to be like and not modelling what it is.

 

The majority of the tiny, multi-operator diesel depot layouts for example may be attractive, but aren't that credible. Ironically there are prototypes which are tiny and easily modelleable which folk then don't model like the loco terminal at Maritime, but I digress...

 

I love watching the real modern scene, and I don't find it boring (and in my opinion in most places there is more variety than folk think if they just go and look for it) - but in modelling terms I like a bit of operation. That's hard to acheive on a small/medium sized layout without losing that credibility.

 

So to my mind 'current' works very well for big roundy (or end to end) layouts (I know Holland Park and Warren Lane aren't roundys, but you still need to be modelling on a reasonably big 'scale' to pull that kind of thing off!) - and that kind of layout doesn't get built unless you have either a person with the funds and/or determination to make something on that scale happen, or a like minded group of people (or a club) that wants to do so.

 

Many of the popular memes which folk 'got away with' under sectorisation (like the branchline terminus with a little bit of speedlink freight lingering on - which existed but weren't exactly common) are hard to make work with the modern scene.

 

I'd say the key to expanding the range is finding bits that are interesting and modelleable, and those bits which are both interesting and modelleable may not be so obvious (or easy to acheive) as they were before...

[beast66606]

Even though we get praised (mostly!) and lots of interest from the public (Can I see that pink one please ?) and modellers (nice signals, is this P4?) and professionals (most realistically operated layout I've seen, you guys run the trains like a real railway) we don't get invites, so we won't be building another one and for bigger, portable layouts, it generally requires investment in time and money from a big team and some form of investment by EMs to actually invite them, otherwise they won't get built - I suppose this is not directly related to modern image but, if others are in the same boat ...

[alibuchan]

there is also our layout Kinlet wharf that is based around 98-onwards and our new layout that we are planning is going to be even newer than that, but thats still at the design stages.

 

Alistair

[beast66606]

I now find the current UK scene as dull as dishwater. All 66s and MUs. Most of the liverys are basically revolting.

 

In your opinion - we've been down this route before, people like different things, I consider a, for example, 66 in rainbow livery far more interesting than 800+ Black 5s in, err, black.

[cromptonnut]

I think the space/budget issue is a big thing, many people at home tend to either model small compact layouts (like a BLT or a diesel depot - and you can probably only have so many similar looking layouts at the same show) or have a permanent layout in a spare room, loft, shed or similar. Very few lone modellers can fit a larger layout at home, or have the budget/skills to deal with it, which leaves it to clubs to fill the gap, and club layouts tend to follow what the larger or more vocal section want to build, and clubs are more often than not predominantly filled by steam era modellers.

 

Bigger layouts, perhaps requiring a van and two cars to transport, 8 operators which need feeding and possibly overnight accommodation, are obviously high expense to exhibition managers and many smaller shows have tight or limited budgets which mean these sort of shows just aren't a practical invite.

[Talltim]

With a show as large as the NEC, surely there should be a higher percentage of contemporary layouts? ,

Mick

Why should there be a higher percentage?

[Edwin_m]

This thread seems to be taking a mostly 4mm view of the world, not to mention the tradtional uk loco-centric viewpoint. N gauge allows modern freight trains of a realistic length to run in a more reasonable space, with layouts including the excellent Drem and Law Junction (as well as Kinlet Wharf mentioned above) doing just that.

 

As to passenger trains, the longest ones today are shorter than in previous eras (Caledonian Sleeper perhaps excepted) and some lines see nothing longer than 2 coaches, which does at least mean you can compress the stations a bit!

 

Without asking for a change in the balance between eras, I'd agree that the balance in modern era layouts is tilted too far towards TMDs and similar in 4mm, and I'd like to see more people attempting a more realistic contemporary operation in a smaller scale within the same amount of space.

[cromptonnut]

Why should there be a higher percentage?

 

I'd guess more space and a far bigger budget for one, er two, reasons. Unless you want a show full of small diesel depots and shunting planks that fit in the back of a car.

 

From when I used to organise our club show, our main hall was about 45ft on the longest dimension and we usually tried to get one big layout to fit along that wall, then fill the rest of the space available with smaller layouts.

[Godders]

After reading this thread I tried to imagine building a contemporary layout based on my nearest station, Three Bridges. This line carries almost exclusively 3rd rail passenger trains from London to Brighton, London to Eastbourne via Lewes and Newhaven, London to Portsmouth and Southampton via the South coast route and Horsham. So a fairly busy Main line. However, as far as I know only the following trains pass through FCC Class 377, Southern Class 350 and Southern/Gatwick Express Class 422. Again as far as I know, none of these are presently available in 4mm although the 350 looks to be on its way.

 

Even if they were available they're usually 8 or 12 coach sets, quite expensive and very long and without much scope for operation (trains don't even divide/join at Three Bridges anymore). On top of all this, by the time some individual or club had built a decent well finished model of the above it probably would no longer be contemporary.

 

Cheers Godders

[bike2steam]

Despite a thread on too many "modern image" layouts, http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__338739 there appears to be a dearth of layouts that are moderately up-to-date (i.e post-2000) on the exhibition circuit.

 

Warning; DO NOT fall into the false impression that model railway forums reflect the hobby in its entirety.

[Talltim]

 

I'd guess more space and a far bigger budget for one, er two, reasons. Unless you want a show full of small diesel depots and shunting planks that fit in the back of a car.

 

From when I used to organise our club show, our main hall was about 45ft on the longest dimension and we usually tried to get one big layout to fit along that wall, then fill the rest of the space available with smaller layouts.

A higher number maybe, but a higher percentage?

[cromptonnut]

A higher number maybe, but a higher percentage?

 

Logically perhaps, working on the basis I mentioned of the restricted number of shows that can accommodate a 40ft layout with 8 operators, a transit and two cars, needing overnight accommodation for at least one if not two nights, then it does follow that something like Warley can accommodate many more large (modern image or otherwise) layouts than the average club exhibition.

[GC Jack]

I stand corrected on the USA point thanks!

 

However, I will recount a personal experience working a modern image layout for a friend a few years ago.

 

It had some beautifully modelled EMU's but these were more or less parked away and the other operators almost exclusively ran freight and many departmental trains.

 

When I took over I shunted most of this lot back into the yards and ran a succession of units as per the real thing.

 

When they came back from a break they were livid with me. (I haven't been invited back since!).

 

I said OK I'll go and buy a fleet of model buses and park them in the station to take the passengers as you guys obviously have "taken possession" for Sunday engineering work. They were even more livid!!

 

My point as I have stated they wanted to run the modern railway as they would like it to be not as it is.

 

Jack

[cromptonnut]

My point as I have stated they wanted to run the modern railway as they would like it to be not as it is.

 

I expect most of us are guilty of that in some way as we all have our favourites that get a bit more of an outing than everything else... and of course you have possibly a larger problem with steam era modelling that it's not necessarily "how it was" - but more "how they remember it" which can be a very different thing...

[bmthtrains - David]

I think there's a fairly easy answer to this question - there's not a high proportion of modern image layouts at shows as they aren't as popular as the steam ones. Remember there is a difference between the 'serious' modeller (most of us on RMWeb), and the general public who go to these shows. The majority will be families or casual modellers, who prefer to watch steam engines.

 

As the demographic changes, so does the balance of models at a show - plenty of transition period layouts out there now. True contemporary layouts will always be in the minority as a large fascination of the hobby to the casual observer is the ability to recapture a scene from the past in model form.

 

David

[298]

Is it because your average UTD (*up to date) layout will probably be a diesel depot, and exhibition managers are wary of inviting too many of those for fear of reprisals from those who think they are over-represented on the circuit...?

 

Then again, an exhibition manager can only invite what is available, and if there simply aren't the layouts out there or aren't available, then what is he to do...? It'd be interesting to do the same survey at the DEMU show.

[Andy Y]

David

 

Of course you'd be too modest to say it but I will - your layouts have captured the contemporary feel of the environment as well as any I have ever seen.

[coachmann]

....and of course you have possibly a larger problem with steam era modelling that it's not necessarily "how it was" - but more "how they remember it" which can be a very different thing...

I think it is more likely to be "how they remember it" but not necessarily "how it was". There is a big difference. True railway enthusiasts were well-up on what was happening and will remember things in some detail. Re-writing history a little using their intimate knowledge of an area and bending things within reasonable boundaries has been common for years.