Hayfields turnout workbench

[mightbe]

John,

 

In P4 it works but only just. I fear the wing rails might be free to slide around without their droppers. There didn't seem to be room for enough functional chairs (pic #1). The wing rails can be adjusted a smidgen in either direction, but the under-rail droppers limit travel to ~.5 mm in either direction. They're unaffected by normal operation.

 

 

 

 

I suspect that this turnout may not fit P4 specs exactly. The knuckles should probably be sharper, and the ".68 mm" P4 check chairs set the rails farther apart than nominal value. Enough to notice anyway. I'll probably cut them in half and shave some plastic off next time. From a distance, it looks fine, and runs perfectly well, but it doesn't stand up to point-blank scrutiny.

 

Quentin

Edited May 31, 2016 by mightbe

[hayfield]

Quentin

 

Thank you for replying. You have confirmed my thoughts that the one problem area is the lack of functional chairs around the wing rails and knuckle. I thought this would be an issue as I have used 0.8 mm check rail centre parts to maintain the 1 mm gap in both EM and 00-SF gauges. also I use a cut down check rail chair sometimes for the Common crossing B chairs

 

My thoughts in overcoming this problem is to use a P4 check rail chair with part cut off in the B chair position and centre parts of P4 check rail chairs in the wing rail gap in the A chair position and the X (knuckle) chair position, I may have to shave a sliver off the centre part to maintain the correct gap, as I have found that the check rail chairs hold the rails under tension within the chair, cutting one chair off gives no tension for the unsupported chair, thus increasing the gap (a benefit in EM and 00-SF gauges). You could try cutting down an ordinary chair for the B chair position which will give the wing rail an anchor to the timber

 

For those wondering about the chair names/positions (A, B, X etc) I will try and explain

 

The chairs at the tip of the Vee are on the A timber position, therefore called A position chairs (they are also of a different design to the others as they are what I believe a slab and bracket chair), the next timber position up the Vee is the B timber, then the C timber etc. Now going away from the tip of the Vee in the other direction the next timber (where the knuckle is) is the X timber followed by the Y timber.

 

I will add a photo later from the Exactoscale instructions, here is a link to the C&L instructions http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/Common%20Crossings.pdf

 

So after all the waffle, I am hopeful that it will both work and look good

[hayfield]

 

This was the demo EM gauge turnout I part built for Railex, I left it in this state for most of the 2 days firstly to show off the chair detail and secondly to show the strength this method has just using chairs to attach the wing/closer rail. I think the addition of check rail parts to the A, B and X chair positions is a must, The B chair position has one of the check rail chairs cut off leaving the other chair and centre part, the A & X positions have the centre part only of the check chair

 

You might also notice the 2 outer check rail chairs are on the stock rail and 2 middle ones hold the check rail in place

 

 

This is a view from the other side. I used the slide plates from 2 slide chairs to hold the tip of the Vee (A timber) and under the Vee at the B timber level whilst the chairs are fitted to both the Vee and wing rails, I have noticed its raised slightly so a bit of superglue will be used to hold it firmly to the timber

 

 

A closer view of the crossing area, I was surprised by the strength of the crossing once the solvent had set.

 

 

[mightbe]

I reckon I could've put 4 functional chairs on each wing rail, but the dropper location prevented it. I think most of the ones I did use were slightly trimmed S chairs, IIRC. The downside is the unsupported V  

 

(I personally wouldn't use the check rail centers for holding the flangeway in P4. The Exactoscale parts are "generous", as you allude to.)

 

Does the Exactoscale chair for the A timber firmly hold everything in place, or is it just for show?

Edited June 1, 2016 by mightbe

[Pannier Tank]

John,

 

 

I've just started to wade through this excellent thread; unfortunately I didn't realise until it was too late that you were at Railex. I did notice the busy demo stand but didn't have much time to hang around as I wanted to get home to see the Monoco GP

 

If you were starting a new EM Gauge Layout, what Sleepers would you choose (for overall looks and ease of construction) , Plywood or Plastic? I notice C&L do both in thin & thick versions. Being an ex GWR Layout I will be looking at 2 Bolt Chairs, so unfortunately FlexiTrack is out!

[hayfield]

I reckon I could've put 4 functional chairs on each wing rail, but the dropper location prevented it. I think most of the ones I did use were slightly trimmed S chairs, IIRC. The downside is the unsupported V  

 

(I personally wouldn't use the check rail centers for holding the flangeway in P4. The Exactoscale parts are "generous", as you allude to.)

 

Does the Exactoscale chair for the A timber firmly hold everything in place, or is it just for show?

 

 

P4 is a bit different and as I said the cut down check rail chairs will have to be modified slightly, where as on EM and 00-sf the 0.8 mm ones can be used as they are.

 

In the A chair position you need a centre part of a check rail chair modified (a sliver shaved off it). The A chair will only work functionally providing there is something between the Vee and wing rail to maintain the gap, the B chair position being the check chair outer (one side cut off and centre part will hold the wing rail in place. You will also need something in the gap between the rails in the X chair position (knuckle) again the centre part of a check chair.

[hayfield]

John,

 

 

I've just started to wade through this excellent thread; unfortunately I didn't realise until it was too late that you were at Railex. I did notice the busy demo stand but didn't have much time to hang around as I wanted to get home to see the Monoco GP

 

If you were starting a new EM Gauge Layout, what Sleepers would you choose (for overall looks and ease of construction) , Plywood or Plastic? I notice C&L do both in thin & thick versions. Being an ex GWR Layout I will be looking at 2 Bolt Chairs, so unfortunately FlexiTrack is out!

 

David

 

It was all a bit of a rush, I received a call from Phil who runs the small C&L stand on Monday or Tuesday saying Peter could not make the show and he was taking the smaller stand, he had 6' of spare space and could I do a demo and stand in fro him when he needed a break. Anyway it was confirmed on Wednesday and I then had to work on some things to work on plus tidy up some examples. 

 

If you intend to show the layout I would recommend the Exactoscale plastic timbers and their Fastrack bases, purely on the strength of the join between chair and timber, for domestic use I personally would err on the side of plastic timbers, but if you prefer the look of ply then use ply. With C&L timbers thick plastic as the thin ones do curl due to the solvent shrinking the top surface of the plastic, if you want thin timbers then use ply.

 

Exactoscale do the plain line track panels where you add which ever chair you require and can be either 45' or 60' lengths, if you are going to pay for chairs for the plain section and going to show the layout use either these of the C&L thick plastic sleepers.

 

If you wish to chat this through PM me

[hayfield]

 

Just incase I have confused folk about which chairs are what and what to cut up

 

The wing/closer rail has from left to right a cut down check rail chair in the B position, nothing in the A & X positions then a bridge chair and a standard chair

 

Above the turnout you will see 2 check rail chairs on the check rail with one part cut off. Below to the right the 2 outer parts of a check chair as the centre has been stuck to the knuckle gap which separates both rails (X chair) position

 

 

I have stuck the two right hand chairs plus the X chair half, this will be allowed to set hard before sticking the wing rail in place, as the bend is slightly under gauge so when I fit the wing rail gauge it will be under its own tension whilst setting

[hayfield]

With the curfew of using the dining table ending just before Railex on Tuesday I altered the workbench by moving it forward to the cupboard doors which not only made it far better to use but also gave me a further 11" of depth

 

 

Wednesday I made a rack on the back of one of the doors to hold my C&L special chairs and chemicals, Next is a lower one to hold the standard chairs. Only saves a few boxes, but frees up more space for less used items

 

 

P4 facing crossover nearing completion

Edited June 4, 2016 by hayfield

[hayfield]

Most of my outstanding trackwork is up to date with the exception finishing off the cast metal chairs on the trial sleeper/tiebar option, waiting for a wet day

 

A project which has been fermenting in the background is one entrance to Ludgate Hill Station in its later stages. I am not too clever with Templot, fine with standard automated plans and slips and just about (with help) produce 3 ways, this is a few steps on in my ability

 

Ludgate Hill print screen 2.pdf

 

Still very much in the embryonic stage, the simple bare bones were worked out and agreed, now its making working drawings as none of the diamonds are standard sizes and curved

 

Being built to P4 standards in chaired track

 

Also in the pipeline I have been asked to build a Masokits etched turnout, this will be interesting

[polybear]

Also in the pipeline I have been asked to build a Masokits etched turnout, this will be interesting

Been there.  I was pleased with the result, though I counted up the total number of solder joints (for a B7 turnout IIRC).  About 700 (?) ish, if memory serves (I'll check that - sounds a lot...), with cutting and forming of individual chair parts on top of that.  I'd happily use the system for a small end to end, branch etc. but nothing larger, unless you have help/plenty of time/patience/into whips etc.....

HTH

Brian

p.s. There was a feature on them in MRJ some years ago, including details of a home made bending jig for forming the chairs easily.

I also had a couple of threads on their use:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32709

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28696-copper-clad-turnout-construction/

[£1.38]

I have tried Masokits etched chairs myself and found the jig idea used in MRJ totally pointless (if you will pardon the pun). I just followed the Masokits instructions and found no problems.

 

From a motivational point of view, bending the etches is the hardest bit. I found that bending them as required didn't work for me. Doing all on one etch sheet together then storing the ones I didn't use for future use worked best - a kind of production line. Once they are bent up, using Masokits etches is pretty reasonable and produces some extremely robust track.

[hayfield]

Brian

 

 

Been there.  I was pleased with the result, though I counted up the total number of solder joints (for a B7 turnout IIRC).  About 700 (?) ish, if memory serves (I'll check that - sounds a lot...), with cutting and forming of individual chair parts on top of that.  I'd happily use the system for a small end to end, branch etc. but nothing larger, unless you have help/plenty of time/patience/into whips etc.....

HTH

Brian

p.s. There was a feature on them in MRJ some years ago, including details of a home made bending jig for forming the chairs easily.

I also had a couple of threads on their use:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32709

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28696-copper-clad-turnout-construction/

Thanks for both the advice and links, I was asked if I would build several, but one was enough just for the experience. Will look at the links again in more detail once I have the frets. Thanks again

[hayfield]

I have tried Masokits etched chairs myself and found the jig idea used in MRJ totally pointless (if you will pardon the pun). I just followed the Masokits instructions and found no problems.

 

From a motivational point of view, bending the etches is the hardest bit. I found that bending them as required didn't work for me. Doing all on one etch sheet together then storing the ones I didn't use for future use worked best - a kind of production line. Once they are bent up, using Masokits etches is pretty reasonable and produces some extremely robust track.

 

Thanks for the tip, I could be wrong, but cannot help thinking that using the Exactoscale full range will offer a far better looking model, and if strength is a concern then plastic timbers weld themselves to the chairs

[hayfield]

The Masokit etches arrived along with the generic instructions and a 1-12 plan (what have I volunteered/let myself in to do?)

 

 

Sorry for the poor photo but its the best my iPhone will do, a standard chair outer half

 

 

Usual start, plan taped to the board, covered in tracing paper, 2 strips of very thin double sided tape and timbers cut and put in place. I have marked the isolation gaps, which I will cut and fill next

 

It seems most chairs are in halves and It look likes they have to be soldered to the stock rails first ?

 

I will go and read the links again about others build, but there really are minimal details

[martin_wynne]

I will go and read the links again about others build, but there really are minimal details

 

Hi John,

 

See also:  http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2268&forum_id=6

 

Unfortunately Google have moved Paul Boyd's page of pictures. You may want to reply to that topic and ask him for a new link.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Martin

 

Thanks, have posted a request on the site (perhaps I should have sent a message)

[hayfield]

 

Additional shelves added to the door, now have most of my Exactoscale 4 mm track parts easily accessable, trouble is that I bought 2 packs od Exactoscale cast chairs and cannot find them, I remember putting them some where I thought safe, but I cannot see where they are stored !!

 

 

The sleepers are all gapped, I do not use a slitting disc as these cut too deep into the fibreglass, I cut them singly with a hacksaw blade trying just to cut through the foil, then I test the cuts with a multi-meter. Far easier than trying to find a short(s) once built. Too often novice builders rush this part in their desire to get something built, and spend far longer in fault finding

 

 

The gaps have Milliput spread into the gaps and will be sanded flat tomorrow once the filler has set hard

 

I have notched the first stock rail and soldered etched fishplates  on to the rail, as this is a GWR 2 bolt turnout I have made a joggle in the stock rail where needed. Next up is to form 40 odd half chairs and solder them to the stock rail, but that's tomorrow job

[hayfield]

Starting the build

 

 

Stock rail formed and tinned and a start has been made on forming the outside chairs

 

 

To start with I soldered the outside half of the chairs to the stock rail

I then fitted a temporary Vee (half) rail so I could fit the stockrail gauges from it (I like to fit the Vee first to ensure all is central), then tacked the stock rail in place

[hayfield]

Yesterday I spent most of my time re-doing a plan for Ludgate Hill station.The first plan I did was from a small scan and did not enlarge in Templot as well as it could, however the person I am assisting was able to do a lot better in scanning at a quality which was far better quality, so enlarged much better. Anyway he was able to rough it out in Templot and sent me a file plus a full size hard copy with the plan on. After a couple of false starts in the week I got stuck into it and managed to overcome the problems caused with the scissors and two diamonds.

 

The bare bones of the plan are now fine and I need to do the final detailing to the scissors and diamonds

 

Having seen Mikkels latest diorama it has got me thinking about something I can do whilst being without a railway room

 

Today a friend visited and after giving some more useful advice about our proposed extension we got down to chatting about a Wills Caley tank he is building, then whilst winding up we put our heads together over an idea for an adjustable Vee building jig

 

 

Quite simply one fixed aluminium bar with a second having a screw at where the 2 bars touch at the end of the fixed bar, the screw acts both as a hinge and tightening screw, simple an effective, just cut a wedge the correct angle then tighten in place.

 

 

Just had time to make the vee and fit in place, I am getting better at making the half chairs, only another 240 to make and fit !!

[hayfield]

Back to the Vee jig description (as I am not rushing off to work), I have a need for an adjustable angle vee jig as the work I have been doing on the Ludgate Hill station plan in Templot has resulted in very non-standard Vee angles, for example 8.83 degrees. so something simple and reusable is what is required.

 

 

Quite simply the screw on the longer (adjustable) piece is the hinge, providing the centre of the hole lines up with the end if the fixed piece it will rotate around it. The pivot screw also acts as a locking screw to maintain the angle. All you need is to cut a wedge of thick plastic plasticard to set the angle. I have tried countersinking the holes but nice flat head screws would look better

 

The next problem with Ludgate Hill station is that some of the crossings have curviformed (curved) Vees, the next adaption is to make a second jig, but the part of the adjustable piece which forms the angle will only be about 1" long if not shorter.

 

To days jobs are to crack on with the Masokits turnout, it is becomming addictive and enjoyable at the same time. The etched slide chairs could also be of use in making functional timber tiebars/ building GWR chaired track !!

 

Also today I hope to finish the design of the 3 way turnout on Ludgate Hill station, I must get my head around the shortening of rails part of the Templot program, then I can tidy up the 2 adjoining diamond crossings, finally allowing me to work on the timber positions of the various turnouts and crossings which are in the same formation

[hayfield]

A good days modelling yesterday, disturbed slightly by gardening and watching the fottie

 

 

In the evening I started to fit the curved stock rail, fitting a few chairs in strategic places, then soldering them in place, With the rail in place its just the case of filling in the gaps. The right end of the rail will wait till the stock rail is fitted. I am getting used to this method of construction, which has some merits over the plastic chaired method, but I cannot see when comparing both methods this being superior to the chaired method.

 

Also with the absence of any form of instructions regarding chair placement, the builder has to find their own source of information, certainly the switch chairs (PL1 & 2) need to be fabricated and the block chair detail (centre part of each chair) for the switch and common crossing are very basic. Having said this the system is a very clever design and is quite enjoyable to build

 

Ludgate Hill plan is progressing, other than tidy up the 3 way rails I set to work replacing the overlapping rails on the diamonds and tweak the check rails, then start to organise the timbering. I don't have Martins ability to show a screen shot, perhaps someone may let me in on how to do it

[Siberian Snooper]

A good days modelling yesterday, disturbed slightly by gardening and watching the fottie

 

339.JPG

 

In the evening I started to fit the curved stock rail, fitting a few chairs in strategic places, then soldering them in place, With the rail in place its just the case of filling in the gaps. The right end of the rail will wait till the stock rail is fitted. I am getting used to this method of construction, which has some merits over the plastic chaired method, but I cannot see when comparing both methods this being superior to the chaired method.

 

Also with the absence of any form of instructions regarding chair placement, the builder has to find their own source of information, certainly the switch chairs (PL1 & 2) need to be fabricated and the block chair detail (centre part of each chair) for the switch and common crossing are very basic. Having said this the system is a very clever design and is quite enjoyable to build

 

Ludgate Hill plan is progressing, other than tidy up the 3 way rails I set to work replacing the overlapping rails on the diamonds and tweak the check rails, then start to organise the timbering. I don't have Martins ability to show a screen shot, perhaps someone may let me in on how to do it

To do a screen shot, use the print screen button, somewhere to the right of the main keyboard, then open PAINT then use the paste. Then save as *.png.

[Colin parks]

Hi Hayfield,

 

I am looking forward to seeing progress on your Ludgate  Hill project.  Here is a link to webpages which include two versions of the track layout at the station (forgive me if you already have seen this):

 

http://www.crjennings.com/Railway%20Structures%20London/Ludgate%20Hill/Ludgate%20Hill%20Index.html

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[PjKing1]

Great work as always John.

 

Cheers