British Railways Coach Roundels on Maroon MK1 stock

[Ben04uk]

How common were British Railways Coach Roundels on Maroon MK1 stock? I see that most of Bachmann's range don't include them but a few do.

 

Would British Railways Coach Roundels on Maroon MK1 stock been more typical at the beginning of their reign, i.e. early 1960's, or more common towards the end, i.e. late 1960s, shortly before they were painted blue and grey?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Ben

 

The offical placing of the coaching stock emblem was as follows,

 

“ B.R. emblem drawing No D.V. 97.

Required on motor vehicles of multi-unit electric &diesel trains.

Also loco hauled vehicles running in named trains.

This emblem should be placed on the bodyside as near as possible to the centre of the vehicle whist preserving the balance of the lettering, etc.

For typical diagrams see pages 13, 38, 41, 42, 48, 49, 50 & 52”

 

from "Lettering and Numbering of Coaching Stock" http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf

 

For some reason the regions did not seem to follow these simple instructions too closely.

 

The WR painted its named trains in chocolate and cream livery, some trains had the emblem some did not. Some WR maroon coaches had the emblem. Over time the trains would be reformed and emblem carrying coaches would be seen in all types of train.

 

The SR only placed the emblem on the Royal Wessex coaches.

 

The ER, NER and ScR appeared to follow the rules but coaches were transferred from one train to another so coaches with the emblem were seen in unnamed trains.

 

The LMR seemed to like the emblem and placed on coaches that were never in named trains.

 

The LMR also appiled to the non-motor coaches of the AM4 EMUs.

 

Have a look at period photos to get some idea of how many coaches in an average train had the emblem applied to them.

[Ben04uk]

Cheers, it is WR maroon coaches I am interested in. If anyone knows of any photos then please let me know.

[bike2steam]

More common on brakes, and  first class coaches.

[stovepipe]

Generally more roundels were seen as the 1960's wore on. Named trains received the newest stock, which often got the roundels. These were later cascaded onto lesser services as new stock was introduced, often replacing older stock which did not have roundels.

[Ben04uk]

Presumably it is daft to suggest any Mk1 coaches in Blue and Grey may have had the roundels painted on?

[Legend]

Presumably it is daft to suggest any Mk1 coaches in Blue and Grey may have had the roundels painted on?

Yep, because blue and grey belonged to the corporate image which also introduced the double arrows, no blue and grey coaches ever had a crest. Similarly except in preservation crimson and cream coaches didn't have roundels either

Edited January 27, 2014 by Legend

[YK 50A]

There's some truths and half truths on here.  For example, there's no evidence to suggest that Brakes and 1st class vehicles were more likely to have roundels.  I suspect this often repeated rumour came from the Southern practice of putting roundels on the driving vehicles of multiple units.  Also, going by diagrams doesn't take into account actual practice and for that matter the application by individual workshops.  While roundels were initially intended for named trains, as well as transfers and the cascading of stock, some regions appeared to apply roundels to coaching stock with more enthusiasm than others.  This was discussed a little while ago, with links to photographs.

 

Alun

[Brinkly]

Greetings,

 

Having completed a bit of research over the past week or so, I've found some photographs of WR maroon MK1 vehicles with roundels, as per the advice proffered above. 

 

Is there much evidence of MK1 BG vehicles in maroon receiving roundels circa 1960? 

Does anyone have a photo of such a vehicle? 

 

Kind regards,

Nick

[The Johnster]

Catering vehicles always seemed to carry them.

[Clive Mortimore]

25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Catering vehicles always seemed to carry them.

Only because most catering vehicles were in named trains.

[The Johnster]

Named trains almost always included catering, Clive, but so did many of the other expresses on the main London routes, cross country, and North to West; I'd imagine there were far more catering vehicles on such trains than the total on named ones.  Catering was (and still is) provided wherever it was thought that money can be made out of it or where it will attract custom, which is on pretty much any run of more than about 3 hours.  It's original purpose was to dispense with the need for refreshment stops, which was of course facilitated by the introduction of gangwayed stock

[Steamport Southport]

I thought it was rare for catering vehicles to have them. They normally have the lettering where the roundel would be.

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

30 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Named trains almost always included catering, Clive, but so did many of the other expresses on the main London routes, cross country, and North to West; I'd imagine there were far more catering vehicles on such trains than the total on named ones...

I wonder if this statement can be tested for any particular selected year by looking at the stock of catering vehicles and the number allocated to named trains according to the diagrams? My own (somewhat jaded) recollection of the circa 1970 period when I at last had the cash to go long distance on BR was that many of the lesser expresses might have catering advertised on the timetable, but no buffet car or a locked up buffet counter was all too frequent. Also too frequent when mirabile dictu the buffet was open, the only items on offer were prepacked antique 'fruit' pies and warm tartan lager.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I thought it was rare for catering vehicles to have them. They normally have the lettering where the roundel would be.

 

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

From "Lettering and Numbering of Coaching Stock" http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf

“ B.R. emblem drawing No D.V. 97.

Required on motor vehicles of multi-unit electric &diesel trains.

Also loco hauled vehicles running in named trains.

This emblem should be placed on the bodyside as near as possible to the centre of the vehicle whist preserving the balance of the lettering, etc.

For typical diagrams see pages 13, 38, 41, 42, 48, 49, 50 & 52”

 

There may have been some that didn't carry the emblem because of the lettering, Greseley designs tended to make life difficult.

[melmoth]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Named trains almost always included catering, Clive, but so did many of the other expresses on the main London routes, cross country, and North to West; I'd imagine there were far more catering vehicles on such trains than the total on named ones...

 

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I wonder if this statement can be tested for any particular selected year by looking at the stock of catering vehicles and the number allocated to named trains according to the diagrams? My own (somewhat jaded) recollection of the circa 1970 period when I at last had the cash to go long distance on BR was that many of the lesser expresses might have catering advertised on the timetable, but no buffet car or a locked up buffet counter was all too frequent. Also too frequent when mirabile dictu the buffet was open, the only items on offer were prepacked antique 'fruit' pies and warm tartan lager.

 

This is the sort of thing that @robertcwp might be able to help with...

[robertcwp]

10 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

 

This is the sort of thing that @robertcwp might be able to help with...

Never got to the bottom of this. The LMR seemed keener on them than other regions.

[The Johnster]

The best advice is of course as always to work from clear and properly dated photographic evidence.  This is also about the worst possible advice if such evidence is not available.  My impression, and it's not more than that, from memory, is that the ECML and WCML's stock was most often adorned with BR crests.  WR choc/cream liveried stock seemed to obey the 'first class/compo/catering' rule, if there really was one.  My memory of both choc/cream and maroon catering stock is that they showed 'RESTAURANT (crest) CAR'.  I don't recall any of the choc/cream BG's carrying them.

[jonny777]

I watched an ECML video filmed c1960/1; and the roundels appeared to be almost distributed at random. There were certainly more Mk1s without them than with them, and very few on ex-LNER stock that I saw. Mind you, as has been mentioned, many cameramen stopped filming after the first coach had passed, because cine film was expensive. 

 

However a total of 3 roundels on an  East Coast express seemed about average. I did count 4 once, but that was on a 13 coach train. 

 

I did find a couple of interesting pre-nationalisation examples (apologies for the quality) and include the best screenshots I could muster. 

 

The first appears to be some form of Gresley kitchen car

 

 

 

 

And the second looks like a Thompson full brake. 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by jonny777

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Never got to the bottom of this. The LMR seemed keener on them than other regions.

I've spent a lot of time looking at your picture collection on the net but never found the answer. The LMR do seem to have been the most prolific but they did like their named trains.

 

On 25/01/2014 at 21:01, Ben04uk said:

Cheers, it is WR maroon coaches I am interested in. If anyone knows of any photos then please let me know.

There's a nice picture of a Hymek with some, D7071 I think it was, on Robertcwp's Flickr site. Could well be some more on there.

[Brinkly]

12 hours ago, jonny777 said:

I watched an ECML video filmed c1960/1; and the roundels appeared to be almost distributed at random. There were certainly more Mk1s without them than with them, and very few on ex-LNER stock that I saw. Mind you, as has been mentioned, many cameramen stopped filming after the first coach had passed, because cine film was expensive. 

 

However a total of 3 roundels on an  East Coast express seemed about average. I did count 4 once, but that was on a 13 coach train. 

 

I did find a couple of interesting pre-nationalisation examples (apologies for the quality) and include the best screenshots I could muster. 

 

The first appears to be some form of Gresley kitchen car

 

 

 

 

And the second looks like a Thompson full brake. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Jonny,

 

One item of stock I'd like to build is a Thompson Full Brake in lined maroon, so this photo is ideal. 

Many thanks for sharing it.

 

Regards,
Nick

[robertcwp]

Some images from my Flickr site. LMR dominates but there is a WR CK amongst those with roundels: 

 

M13807M_Preston_2-4-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

M26858M_Neasden_3-4-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

M257M_Euston_5-3-64 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

M613M_WatfordJct_9-12-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Exeter_Maroon_undated_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

E3034_WeaverJct_Aug-63_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Brinkly]

Lovely photos @robertcwp 

 

The pair of MK1 stock at Exeter is particularly helpful. 

 

Regards,

Nick

[robertcwp]

A few more on the WR:

 

D7065_1A54_Kennington_3-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

D7026_Oxford_4-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

D1044_Exeter_1965 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

D804_Wootton Basset_27-9-64 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited July 11, 2019 by robertcwp

[JZ]

On 10/07/2019 at 14:22, The Johnster said:

Catering vehicles always seemed to carry them.

 

On 10/07/2019 at 14:48, Clive Mortimore said:

Only because most catering vehicles were in named trains.

But kitchen cars, which normally only ran in named trains, did't carry them. Someone will prove me wrong, but it was Coachman who told me this.