Collett 'Bow Ended' Standard 57' Corridor Stock Coaches for 2016

[Budgie]

Can I just very briefly revisit the left hand right hand question please?

 

Can anyone just confirm that the right thing for  a set with a brake at each end is to order one of each hand, to ensure the corridors are on the same side?

• Did these coaches run in sets?
• You can run anything you like and it is likely to have been correct at some time or another.

[colin penfold]

There is a smashing thread elsewhere on here regarding GW coach fformations and the various reasons for "handing" are covered earlier in this thread (page 2)

 

Sorry I can't do links as I'm on my tablet.

 

I just wanted to confirm my understanding that the correct thing if two brakes were in the same train they need to be opposite hands to get the corridor on the same side . Thanks to those who confirmed via the agree button.

[coachmann]

The original shows a clear difference between the 'mahogany' droplight colour and the black inside edge of the window opening of both the droplight and the adjacent windows. The windows were not flush on the 1920's BE 58' stock, hence the GWR's idea for making them look flush. I was referring to the 58' BE 1925-29 coaches as announced by Hornby.

 

Back in the 1960's, someone thought they had come up with a new idea to make Triang coach windows look flush by painted the recesses black. It came under 'a prototype for everything' department because someone else (I suspect it was editor Cyril Freezer) informed readers that the Great Western had in fact done this some years before. Painting the recess black would have been a simple task to painters who, until 1927, were routinely painting coaches in fully panelled style. 

 

Body construction had changed to true flush-sided stock in the modern idiom when the 'Riviera' stock was built in 1929 and the black window surround I mentioned was unnecessary from hereon. It is also likely the door window recess became mahogany at this point.

[gwrrob]

Thanks for shewing that photo as I have to fit some curly handles to mine and I didn't realise they stuck out as much as that.

[Ozexpatriate]

• Did these coaches run in sets?
• You can run anything you like and it is likely to have been correct at some time or another.

There is a smashing thread elsewhere on here regarding GW coach fformations and the various reasons for "handing" are covered earlier in this thread (page 2)

Link to "GWR Coach Formations" thread assuming this is the right one.

[coachmann]

Thanks for shewing that photo as I have to fit some curly handles to mine and I didn't realise they stuck out as much as that.

They are probably quite deceptive. My LNWR 'L' shaped grab handle sticks out around 2 inches. People using wire often leave them too prominent.

[County of Yorkshire]

Always understood this practice was so that the passenger compartments were all on the same side throughout the train, and the coaches were orientated such that passengers in the compartments enjoyed the best view from the compartment side windows, i.e. on the GW, the compartments were on the 'sea' side.

 

You're right with the compartments being all on the same side, but it was the other way on; the compartments were north-facing on the East-West routes, as the corridor side was platform side at Paddington Platform 1 - the south side. 

 

Evidence of this can be found in the well-known '100 Years of Progress' image from 1935 - the stock is 1925 bow-ended, with the compartment windows (distinctive with their quarter lights) shown facing north. 

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

Edited June 12, 2015 by County of Yorkshire

[31A]

You're right with the compartments being all on the same side, but it was the other way on; the compartments were north-facing on the East-West routes, as the corridor side was platform side at Paddington Platform 1 - the south side. 

 

Evidence of this can be found in the well-known '100 Years of Progress' image from 1935 - the stock is 1925 bow-ended, with the compartment windows (distinctive with their quarter lights) shown facing north. 

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

 

Remarkable; didn't they ever leave from even numbered platforms?

[Adrian Wintle]

 

• Did these coaches run in sets?
• You can run anything you like and it is likely to have been correct at some time or another.

 

 

According to Harris, Lots 1351-3 and 1373-5 were originally formed into 6-coach sets (although the notes against Lot 1375 in the lot list disagree with this). Also, lots 1411/2 were built to form third-class excursion sets.

 

Adrian

Edited June 14, 2015 by Adrian Wintle

[Coach bogie]

According to Harris, Lots 1351-3 and 1373-5 were originally formed into 6-coach sets (although the notes against Lot 1375 in the lot list disagree with this). Also, lots 1411/2 were built to form third-class excursion sets.

 

Adrian

 Anyone actually seen a photograph of these complete sets in service? I have not been able to apart from the usual publicity shots. The Harris statement also relies on equal numbers of each type being complete at Swindon at the same time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited June 15, 2015 by Coach bogie

[Adrian Wintle]

 Anyone actually seen a photograph of these complete sets in service? I have not been able to apart from the usual publicity shots. The Harris statement also relies on equal numbers of each type being complete at Swindon at the same time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I'm pretty sure I have, in one of the photo collection books I have. I'll have to take a look tonight.

 

Adrian

[Edwardian]

I was looking through a coach working timetable for instances of 2 57' composites marshalled together, enabling the LH and RH versions to be used as God's Wonderful intended.  I find that Paddington - Taunton - Weston super Mare workings employed compos marshalled together, in fact, the official formation enables one to use all the coach types Hornby is releasing:

 

Van Third (brake end leading) /  Third / Compo / Compo / Van Third (brake end trailing)

 

I don't know whether any of the Bow-Ended sets were utilised, but there are a number of pictures of these services in the Great Western in the 1930s volumes.  They tend to be made up of Collett coaches.  In one instance at least a flat-ender of around 1930, but I would have though it entirely reasonable for a modeller to represent these service using the Hornby 'set'.

[sledghampton]

Here's the thing. Firstly, well done to Hornby for (hopefully) getting it right after fouling up the original "bow-enders" and unpanelled clerestories; but why handed coaches ? Even the GW didn't build any more after these as the system didn't work. And anyhow, handed composites were only any good either side of the restaurant car. Ah, so where IS the restaurant car; and the brake composite. An "E" set; brake composite, third, van third; and an "M" set, van third, third, composite, van third, made up many local sets irrespective of "handing". A much better idea if producing five coaches to do one van third, one composite, one brake composite, and either a restaurant car or a full brake. Strange advice given to Hornby by someone who should have known better......but still, be thankful for ANY accurate GWR coach!!!.............Now.....where are the Toplights ?

[Budgie]

Where are the non-gangwayed equivalents?

[Dunsignalling]

Where are the non-gangwayed equivalents?

Do you want them after these, or in place of them?

[Budgie]

Certainly not in place of them. After will do, or preferably alongside.

[Ozexpatriate]

Certainly not in place of them. After will do, or preferably alongside.

I'll settle for 'after', but I'm with you, non-gangwayed coaches would be nice. And toplit corridor stock, etc etc.

[Coach bogie]

............Now.....where are the Toplights ?

 On my messy workbench - nearly finished?????

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Re6/6]

Now that's the sort of work bench that I like!

[MJI]

Wow, great. I see a nice scratch rake with Hawksworths...

What an announcement!

 

Now, can someone tell me which varients are preserverved - particularly the 'handed' vehicles...?

 

http://www.imber.me.uk/gwr2co.htm

[MJI]

I tried to buy one but could not raise the £1500 at the time

[MJI]

I do like this stock type, as I have a large interest in coaching stock, I may get a couple. (models)

 

Pity noone was interested at the time for the C54 hunt (real)

Edited June 30, 2015 by MJI

[Edwardian]

My twopenneth:

 

Unless you are modelling the coaches in the original sets (in which case you may be better with the original panelled livery, which Hornby almost certainly will never do) or the Weston formation mentioned above, the handed composites seem a bit of an unnecessary luxury, and a brake composite would perhaps have been a better use of the 'slot'.

 

Handed Van Thirds would seem more useful as they allow formations with brake ends outermost.  Of course, this is only really useful if you need to keep the corridor on the same side.  The extent to which the GW was bothered about this is perhaps best judged by looking at a lot of photographs of trains.

 

Just to show how slanted things can be when considering only one part of the system, I am collecting stock for running on the South Devon mainline, Newton Abbot division, mid-'30s.  On cross-country expresses, to which 57 footers are largely confined (West of England expresses overwhelmingly used 70 footers), I find no use for handed composites, as in no formation do two composites appear marshalled together.  I have use for plenty of composites, just not in pairs. 

 

Brake composites I would need by the shed load, so, for me, this is an unfortunate omission, but, then, until Hornby announced the Colletts, there were no decent GW coaches for my period at all, so I make no complaint.

 

Restaurant car? Well, one, maybe, alternating with an LMS vehicle.  All thirds?  Not as many as you'd think.

 

What would be the single most useful Collett not in the Hornby announcement is a full brake or brake 'Van'.  Lots of these cropped up and the absence of one severely limits what you can run.  Mind you, my preference would be for a K40, which is a longer vehicle than the Bow-enders announced.

 

For LMS vehicles on North to Wests you need lots of Brake Thirds and Composites and Full brakes.  No need for Thirds or Brake Compos.  Fine if Bachmann ever produced its Period I pair in fully lined crimson (it appeared to be doing so for the Compound train pack, which I would have bought just for the coaches, but Bachmann appears to have bottled it. Pity).

 

Other routes would, I have no doubt, give you a rather different picture. All in all, however, I am just grateful for what we are getting.

[exet1095]

To answer Edwardian. The C54 numbered over 250 coaches, along with the dozen or so (C58s?) converted from the articulated stock. They appear in hundreds of photos of different trains, often one or two as strengtheners behind the tender and ahead of the booked formation. I have built four myself, and my only gripe with the Hornby coaches is that they will look much better than mine!

 

I am sure that if we buy these then other varieties will appear - BCKs and the 3 compartment break thirds maybe, not to mention the H33.

 

Paul

[Edwardian]

Paul,

 

We may be at cross-purposes. Of course there were lots of thirds, and, yes, there would be more than shown in coach working timetables as strengtheners were added.  My point, simply, is that, on the North to West services I am concerned with, I was surprised that they did not occur in greater numbers than I found to be the case.  As I say, a particular route can give a slanted view.

 

So, digging out my research files, I find the following:

 

For weekday, winter timetable, and assuming that each coach is used twice - one way and then remarshaled for the balancing working - I find that the total GW 57' passenger coaches required to represent express services on the South Devon mainline are:

 

57' Van Third - 5

57' Van Third (3 compt.) - 2

57' Third - 2

57' Compo - 5

57' Brake Compo - 8

57' RC - 1 

 

Note: Only 2 All Thirds.  More Thirds would be seen as strengtheners, but, this may be less likely on, say, a winter timetable Tuesday than on, say, a summer timetable Saturday.

 

57' (and 70') express coaches would also be seen on some local stoppers, but, if in the Up direction, might simply be some of the coaches that arrived on Down expresses using a stopper as balancing working.  

Edited June 30, 2015 by Edwardian