Collett 'Bow Ended' Standard 57' Corridor Stock Coaches for 2016

[coachmann]

In other cases, Grouping Railways did not really get into their stride until the '30s; the LMS and LNER seemed both strapped for cash..... 

 

So, if adherents to the 1923-1935 period or pre-grouping wanted to get organised, they ought to concentrate, IMHO, on, say, 1895-1935, and seek to build consensus for models that make that period a more practicable proposition.  I'd start by making sure that each major pre-grouping company/constituent was represented by a humble six-coupled goods.  Some of the most obvious omissions would seem to be one for the LBSC, MR, LNWR and NER, not to mention a Dean and an Armstrong for the GW fans.  New models should have a built in capacity for back-dating.

The LMS was not strapped for cash. It was strapped for good leadership until Stanier was brought in. As for adherents of 1895-1935, it is more likely that people buy a loco in an attractive livery because they fancy it and then look around for something suitable for it to haul so that they have a 'set'. It stands to reason that railway modellers with layouts based on a pre-grouping company in a particular location will already have sorted out their requirement outside of plastic RTR circles.

[Edwardian]

Some sensible choices for a few of the major pre-group companies would be an ideal.  Rather than the top-link show stoppers, most average OO layouts depicting secondary mainlines and branches could happily subsist with, say, 1 Class of passenger tank, 1 class of small passenger tender, a 2-4-0 or 0-4-2, or smaller 4-4-0 or cascaded Single, 1 0-6-0 goods tender engine and maybe a 6-coupled shunter.  That's a total of 3 or 4 each for a handful of major companies; it's more than realisable, and some of these models already exist RTR.

 

I think, again, the notion that pre-grouping or early-Grouping, must necessarily be, or, even, that it somehow should be, the preserve of those privileged enough to have the time to acquire, hone and extensively employ the skills necessary to build and paint everything to a modern RTR standard is as unattractive as it is fallacious.  It is, in fact, a form of snobbery, and I have no patience with snobbery. Further, the implication that any 'Box Opener' purchasing a pre-grouping RTR loco must be a trivial-minded collector of Gaw-Gaws is as offensive as it is misconceived.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Edwardian

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

[so, if adherents to the 1923-1935 period or pre-grouping wanted to get organised,]  they ought to concentrate, IMHO, on, say, 1895-1935, and seek to build consensus for models that make that period a more practicable proposition. 

Unfortunately, 1895 to 1935 is more like four periods with constant change and technological advancement taking place throughout. Snapshots of any UK railway in each of the four decades 1895-1905, 1905-1915, 1915-1925 and 1925-1935 would reflect quite dramatic change.

 

Few of the locomotives many regard as archetypal pre-group designs even existed in 1895 and surprisingly little of what preceded them remained in traffic by 1935.

 

Locomotives and stock used on UK main lines in 1920 had changed fairly radically from what was commonplace only 15 years earlier. Stretch that to even three decades and things are almost unrecognizable. For example, on the LSWR/SR, only 27 years separated Drummond's typically Victorian T9's from Maunsell's massive 'Lord Nelson' and, by the time the latter emerged, rebuilding of the former class was almost complete.

 

New coaches built immediately prior to WW1 incorporated many advances over those being turned out at the end of the Victorian era and were noticeably larger. Things moved even further in the next decade.

 

John

Edited July 23, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[J C Fenton]

Dunsignalling - I guess that's fair enough, but many railways brought out new designs of locomotives - bigger 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s, 8-coupled goods in the c.1905-14 era - most of which stayed around through grouping and into BR.  Likewise wagons and, especially, coaches. 

 

Few of these had rebuilds so radical that back-dating could not be built in at tooling stage, or, in some cases achieved just by older livery. 

 

There are some models coming out that fit this, but little thought is given to making them back-datable.  The E4 is exceptional, IMHO, in offering the pre-group livery as a matter of course in Year 1 of production.  Thanks for that Bachmann.

 

Doing this, not modelling a preserved engine that never looked like the model when in service, would be far more useful.

 

So, when I see a model that only needs a different livery to make it available for an earlier era, its natural to feel a little frustrated if this doesn't happen, which brings me neatly back to faux panelling for the Colletts.

[Dunsignalling]

Further, the implication that any 'Box Opener' purchasing a pre-grouping RTR loco must be a trivial-minded collector of Gaw-Gaws is as offensive as it is misconceived.

"Any" would be pushing it but I'd love to see the basic premise tested by the parallel introduction of ranges of pretty, bright red, brass encrusted Midland Railway locos and stylish, but comparatively austere, black LNWR ones............

 

Call me cynical if you wish

 

John

Edited July 23, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Dunsignalling - I guess that's fair enough, but many railways brought out new designs of locomotives - bigger 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s, 8-coupled goods in the c.1905-14 era - most of which stayed around through grouping and into BR.  Likewise wagons and, especially, coaches. 

 

Few of these had rebuilds so radical that back-dating could not be built in at tooling stage, or, in some cases achieved just by older livery. 

 

There are some models coming out that fit this, but little thought is given to making them back-datable.  The E4 is exceptional, IMHO, in offering the pre-group livery as a matter of course in Year 1 of production.  Thanks for that Bachmann.

 

Doing this, not modelling a preserved engine that never looked like the model when in service, would be far more useful.

 

So, when I see a model that only needs a different livery to make it available for an earlier era, its natural to feel a little frustrated if this doesn't happen, which brings me neatly back to faux panelling for the Colletts.

I wouldn't argue with any of that but the real problem is that I doubt the manufacturers think now is the right time to do it.

 

All the criticism Bachmann have been getting over price rises is unlikely to encourage them to produce alternative versions in complex liveries for which they will inevitably have to charge more. I think they'd much prefer to have a commissioner on board, both to spread the risk and because people expect commissioned models to be more expensive.  

 

As for the Bow-enders, I expect Hornby to do the original, 1925 livery later but the initial priority will be recouping their investment with the versions they know will sell.

 

John

[Edwardian]

Ah, but the Premier Line is very smart in lined black, and just think of those Plum & Spilt Milk coaches, surely one of the most stunning coach liveries ever produced.

 

Or, how about a LMS Royal Train pack (the supposedly trivial-minded collector will love that it is Royal), then you can have both a shiny red engine and the most gorgeous coach livery together.

 

I suspect that the RTR-buying public is being rather unfairly done down here, but, if I am wrong about that, let me just say that, if the only way to fund production of colourful pre-grouping and pre-grunge locomotives is the combined might of the Franklin Mint's subscribership, then I, for one, will swallow my pride and buy! 

 

PS Let's not forget, though, that we are here to praise Hornby, not to bury it; here we celebrate the impending Colletts, which are much needed and appreciated.  if Dunsignalling is proved correct, that eventually there will be versions backdated to 1925, then that is the gilt on the gingerbread.

 

I'm still going to render unto Hornby next year to get the 1928-34 versions.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Edwardian

[The Stationmaster]

What has seemingly been found to work with the sale of Pre-Group outline models is if people can also see the real thing.  Not an absolute 'rule' because there have been exceptions (both ways) but a quick look at the Pre-Group locos, or rather Pre-Group liveried locos released over the past 10 years or so shows that the vast majority are models of something folk can actually go and see - and this widens the market.

 

One RMweb member has already looked into commissioning a certain Pre-Group class and contacted all those folk he thought might be interested but there simply wasn't the weight of numbers  there to justify going ahead with the idea - it was for a loco class which (just)  lasted into BR years but with none preserved.  That I fear would be the fate of many others - for example just how many folk want an LNWR 'Cauliflower'?

 

Anyway enough of this thread drift - there is a section for Pre-Group on the forum and this thread is about Collett coaches (I thought)

[rovex]

 

 

Or, how about a LMS Royal Train pack (the supposedly trivial-minded collector will love that it is Royal), then you can have both a shiny red engine and the most gorgeous coach livery together.

 

I suspect that the RTR-buying public is being rather unfairly done down here, but, if I am wrong about that, let me just say that, if the only way to fund production of colourful pre-grouping and pre-grunge locomotives is the combined might of the Franklin Mint's subscribership, then I, for one, will swallow my pride and buy! 

 

 

 

Ah yes - but only if every conceivable surface is lovingly picked out in hand applied real 24 carat gold - a sure sign of quality :-)

[Ozexpatriate]

I believe there is plenty of evidence to suggest "build it and it will run".  .... Building on what has gone before, for sure, but these modelling trends are at least in part RTR manufacturer led.

 It is practical to do more things pre-1936, but manufacturers may not (yet) regard it as commercial.  To keep on topic, the new Colletts in faux panelling would be the prime example of what could be done.

This comment might be a bit out of sequence, but as far as the GWR is concerned I represent pre-1934 because that is exactly the period that the manufacturers have produced in the greatest numbers since the days of the Tri-ang Albert Hall. To presume that the manufacturers don't cater to that period seems to ignore the fact that for decades they have done so.

 

Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but consistently the relevant large 4-6-0 locomotives are turned out in lined GREAT <arms> WESTERN liveries and (certainly Hornby) has produced passenger coach liveries that match. All the larger freight locomotives have been turned out in unlined GREAT   WESTERN liveries. Small tanks are a notable exception. These seem to be more commonly produced in Hawksworth G W R liveries but Bachmann certainly has produced lots of small tanks with GREAT   WESTERN liveries.

 

Where I have seen a change is in the distribution of freight liveries. Most of the GWR freight rolling stock being made today is small lettered, rather than the earlier large lettered  which once was more common in RTR models but the freight livery is less noticeable to the casual observer than the passenger liveries (and much easier to fix, should people be particular).

Edited July 23, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Edwardian]

Agreed concerning the locos, save that:

 

• You cannot have a Manor or an Earl, or even several engines introduced pre-'36; a 14XX with top feed, or a Collett Goods with the usual tender offering etc, etc. 
• If you are content to run only 4-6-0s plus 3 or 4 tanks, you can represent the locomotives pre-1935.  BUT:
• Please also remember that the Halls are as likely to have Churchward tenders at that time, and your choice is Railroad at this time
• Hornby have, strangely, only ever done one of the Castle and one of the Star main variants in pre-war livery
• Your non-hyper priced STEAM Ltd edition Star is post 1934 anyway

I'm not complaining, its a better choice than pre-groupers get, and one can always adapt, re-letter etc.  No, I'm not complaining, I'm just correcting you, Ozexpatriate!

 

AND, as you say, company wagons have gone mainly to 1936 small lettering, but, again, a minor irritation.

 

What really does for pre-1936 GWR RTR is coaching.  This is why the new Hornby Colletts will be such a boon.  At the moment:

 

• Suburban B Set, Airfix originally, so a fair model but not up to modern standards.  Not I think particularly appropriate for the popular rustic branch line subjects where they tend to get used, not the type used on the branches I've sniffed around, at least (e.g. Kingsbridge)
• Centenaries: Same comments as above re vintage but pretty useless as just 2 of the 10 plus set and they only represent one service on one route. You're knackered period wise, 'cos they're 1935 coaches.
• Ditto re vintage Airfix auto-coach - which has accuracy issues
• Hornby Corridor Clerestories - Hopeless, only a Third and a Van Third and no panelling (Duh! Hornby Duh!)  
• The 1936 Sunshine stock.  A bit dated as models, but fair, but, again, out of your period, Laddie!
• Hornby Bow-Ended corridors, thankfully consigned to the Railroad range.  1 comp, 1 Van third, 1 restaurant.  Pretty rubbish.
• Siphon G and Siphon H - nice bodies, but you'll need to replace the bogies.
• No 70' stock at all
• No passenger brake vans at all

So, when I say, as I said earlier, that at the moment the only passenger rated RTR GW vehicle I can use straight out of the box for my pre-1936 project is Hornby's Horse Box, maybe you'll believe me!

 

So, roll on 2016 and the Colletts.  We can have a train at last for all those lovely "Great [Crest] Western" 4-6-0s!

 

It will only have taken 40 years or so for RTR to produce reasonable corridor general service coaches to match them.

 

SO,

 

THANK YOU Hornby, THANK YOU!

Edited July 23, 2015 by Edwardian

[Ozexpatriate]

Agreed concerning the locos, save that:

• You cannot have a Manor or an Earl, 

If I was focused on pre-1934 (when the roundel was first introduced) why would I want a Manor or an Earl?

 

Most of your comments are somewhat qualitative. Certainly older models are not done to current standards, but my primary point was that, from a livery choice, the RTR market has been well supplied with pre-1934 liveried GWR items over the years. Whether people like those models is a different thing entirely.

 

If people don't fine tune models themselves and simply want to run RTR models as is, then we're in a "beggars can't be choosers" situation no matter what.

 

I endorse your closing sentiments, with a slight modification:

So, roll on 2016 and the Colletts.  We can at last have a train to modern standards for all those lovely "Great [Crest] Western" 4-6-0s!

[Jack]

 

Bachmann's C class in SECR livery is fetching £500 on ebay, despite there being no RTR stock for it to run with. I wonder what price it will fetch when the birdcages eventually arrive in SECR livery.

 

To be fair, Bachmann did do the collectors club wagons, but they are just as hard to get hold of as the loco!

 

(2) It is, at best, debateable whether the SECR actually painted C Class locos in full passenger livery and their model of No.271 in the simpler livery that is known to be correct for the pre-group period hasn't stimulated anything like as much demand.

 

I disagree and we've been here before, so I will say nothing further in this thread.

[Edwardian]

I think the whole point is about quality; we have some quality locomotives for Groupers, including the present generation of 'Great [Crest] Western' 4-6-0s, but whereas the other Big 3 have general service corridor coaching of modern standards to match, the GW has been left without sufficient coaches to make up prototypical formations and with models that are pretty dire by the standards of the locomotives.

 

I made a bad point about the Manors and Earls.  What I think I was driving at was that there is no now 4300 available, and the old one is pretty old hat, ditto Saint, and there has never been RTR Dukes or Bulldogs, so that bracket of mixed traffic engines, that the Manors, Earls, Granges, Counties replaced, is not open to the pre-36 modeller.  That's a pretty big hole in an early '30s roster.

[Dunsignalling]

To be fair, Bachmann did do the collectors club wagons, but they are just as hard to get hold of as the loco!

 

 

I disagree and we've been here before, so I will say nothing further in this thread.

Any evidence there was more than the one?

[Craigw]

 

I think, again, the notion that pre-grouping or early-Grouping, must necessarily be, or, even, that it somehow should be, the preserve of those privileged enough to have the time to acquire, hone and extensively employ the skills necessary to build and paint everything to a modern RTR standard is as unattractive as it is fallacious.  It is, in fact, a form of snobbery, and I have no patience with snobbery. Further, the implication that any 'Box Opener' purchasing a pre-grouping RTR loco must be a trivial-minded collector of Gaw-Gaws is as offensive as it is misconceived.

 

I have not read any comments that suggest the above - at least to me. People who only wish to purchase RTR and do not want (or have ability, interest, desire etc) to build kits are by necessity bound to what manufacturers produce. Thus, the RTR suppliers dictate what they model rather than they modelling what they want. If the interests of both coincide (as they do in many cases) then all is well. But I would also guarantee that if a RTR supplier produced a cohesive set of stock for one of the pre-grouping companies then you would see an increase in modelling that.

 

But at the moment the reality is that if someone is really interested in modelling pre-grouping then they will kit build or scratchbuild and are thus less concerned with what RTR suppliers do.

 

The Hornby coaches are just (and i mean just!) outside my period of interest. If they only come out in the post 1927 livery I wont be buying any. But, if they do come out in the 1922 - 1927 livery I will buy some simply because they can be quicky coaches for me. But I cant justify the time to repaint them when I have so many kits to build that are accurate for my era.

 

Craig W

[St Enodoc]

I have not read any comments that suggest the above - at least to me. People who only wish to purchase RTR and do not want (or have ability, interest, desire etc) to build kits are by necessity bound to what manufacturers produce. Thus, the RTR suppliers dictate what they model rather than they modelling what they want. If the interests of both coincide (as they do in many cases) then all is well. But I would also guarantee that if a RTR supplier produced a cohesive set of stock for one of the pre-grouping companies then you would see an increase in modelling that.

 

But at the moment the reality is that if someone is really interested in modelling pre-grouping then they will kit build or scratchbuild and are thus less concerned with what RTR suppliers do.

 

The Hornby coaches are just (and i mean just!) outside my period of interest. If they only come out in the post 1927 livery I wont be buying any. But, if they do come out in the 1922 - 1927 livery I will buy some simply because they can be quicky coaches for me. But I cant justify the time to repaint them when I have so many kits to build that are accurate for my era.

 

Craig W

Craig, I'm not sure that I follow your last paragraph. Are you saying that you would rather spend the time needed to build a kit AND paint it, instead of just repainting an RTR model?

[Craigw]

Craig, I'm not sure that I follow your last paragraph. Are you saying that you would rather spend the time needed to build a kit AND paint it, instead of just repainting an RTR model?

 

 

That is exactly what i am saying.

 

I already have the kits, which are accurate to my 1923 - 1924 period. If the Collet coaches were in the full livery I would buy some just to have some stock in the full livery. No other reason!

 

Craig W

[St Enodoc]

That is exactly what i am saying.

 

I already have the kits, which are accurate to my 1923 - 1924 period. If the Collet coaches were in the full livery I would buy some just to have some stock in the full livery. No other reason!

 

Craig W

Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about kits for the same vehicles as Hornby are modelling.

[coachmann]

Repainting some RTR coaches is not straightforward. It all swings on whether the glazing can be removed or not. 

[J C Fenton]

About pre-grouping and early grouping, reference RTR its a meaningless divide 'cos the poor coverage starts mid 30s and goes back from there getting progressively worse.

 

Thats why it has relevance to the faux panelling debate around these Colletts.

 

Don't buy the "dedicated few who learn the skills are the only ones who want to do the earlier period, so what's the problem" line.

 

This ignores the fact that all those of us yet to enter that elite (and many of us won't) might still fancy an earlier period.

 

While we should all try to be modellers and not box shakers and progressively master new skills, at the same time, there is nowt wrong with encouraging us with better RTR support.

 

Don't see too many Transition Era modellers wringing their hands at how they'd rather have been forced to master etched-brass construction than buy all those Bachmann, Hornby, Heljan etc RTR models.

 

I suspect there's more than a few who secretly want to guard the exclusivety of earlier periods with soldering irons and airbrushes.  Just a suspicion, mind you...

 

Not going to argue - sterile debate - so that's me done

[cctransuk]

Not going to argue - sterile debate - so that's me done

 

 

So you proceed to dismiss opinions put forward earlier in the discussion - but you are not prepared to defend your own views?

 

Now THAT is a sterile debate !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Edwardian]

I have seen such "debates" before.  They seldom go anywhere and often degenerate.  Clearly there are two schools of thought here; both sides appear to have been ventilated. People are free to subscribe to whichever view.  The views themselves won't benefit from ever less tolerant repetition.

 

For my part, I have already said my piece and I am certainly not prepared to be drawn into this any further, as, for me, it's a hobby, it's light relief from reality.  I'm not going to spoil that. 

[4965 nick]

yes its a shame Hornby are not doing the same what they did with there hawksworth coaches when first release both in chocolate and cream/ blood and custard /maroon .this would have been better in my opinion anyway as these did more often ran with the hawksworth coaches ? its a bit like the Bachmann port hole coaches any chance of seeing these in maroon ?

[Ozexpatriate]

yes its a shame Hornby are not doing the same what they did with there hawksworth coaches when first release both in chocolate and cream/ blood and custard /maroon .

I presume that they will at some point appear in BR maroon. They do have the other two liveries covered.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Ozexpatriate