Engineer

Some potentially interesting information that seems a reasonable fit to the spirit of this thread. Here is an article about "Dunton Green Brick, Tile & Pottery Works and Associated Industries": http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/index.shtml This goes into thorough detail about the business, the sites and the layout of plant and rail lines, not only narrow gauge but also standard gauge connections. What's additionally interesting in the Dunton Green article are some photographs from May 1937, which show a narrow gauge line with skips serving a 'drag scraper' on its own 'wide gauge' rails. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/brick6.jpg http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/brick8.jpg http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/brick7.jpg This source has come up while looking at gravel pit narrow gauge in Sturry, Kent, which began in the other threads on: Bailey Bridge and NG line at Sturry https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/114303-bailey-bridges-in-the-uk/&do=findComment&comment=4506289 'abandoned rails' [Narrow gauge at Sturry] https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/163553-abandoned-rails-in-the-roador-elsewhere/&do=findComment&comment=4514847 'abandoned rails' ['wide gauge' at Sturry] https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/163553-abandoned-rails-in-the-roador-elsewhere/&do=findComment&comment=4514177

Many thanks for the continued interest in the 'rails' question and all the practical suggestions. "Now we need the IRS on board to tell us what it was." Even without the IRS, we have the superlative Nearholmer. Very useful confirmation of the site and NG presence, and I like his suggestion of gate rails in an earlier post above. Here is my rationale at the outset, and some new clues to change direction subtly. I visited the area because of the the chance of seeing bridge remains, having posted the original excellent narrow gauge scene from 1976, referenced above. Before making a site visit I, too, looked at sheet 173 for general information, both revisions to 1965 and 1968. The earlier version, as mentioned in the previous post, shows a slightly curving line following the southern edge of a pit or lake. The later version shows the line diverted south across the bridge in question. With these clues in mind I extended my walk of exploration culminating in finding rails and sleepers in the post of yesterday evening, above. The 'rails across the road' was the furthest west of my walk, at map cursor 51.30142, 1.12970 [spot A}. The furthest west remains of narrow gauge track were at cursor 51.300878, 1.131869 [spot B]. I've taken a scrap screen view of the side-by-side view to indicate relative positions: The new clue is from 'Britain from Above'. It hadn't been an initial line of enquiry as I'd not expected any coverage to overlap the date range of interest for the Brett gravel railway. This was a mistake, in hindsight, and there is something quite useful, from 25 April, 1947: https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW004813 The linked image, with excellent definition, shows very early development of the gravel workings. Machinery for loading and transhipment is in place and the online map now has a pin - imagine a line dropped from this pin and also imagine an extension of the roadway coming from the left. The remaining 'rails in road' are slightly left of the intersection of these imaginary lines, where the machinery is. Tentatively, I reckon the buried rails are part of the base for the loading machinery yet there could be other explanations. There is generic evidence that some quarry plant ran on rails with gauge of the order of 6 feet - see: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/index.shtml Images: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/brick6.jpg http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/brick8.jpg http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/dunton_green_brickworks/brick7.jpg It looks like there are NG lines around the site, the possible wagon discharge terminal visible [with pin added] further right on the aerial image. There seems to be facilities to unload to a conveyor, crossing the water to the transhipment machinery. The path I followed, with its surviving NG rails, heads away further to the right and upward in this image. In the image there's also evidence of a small rail yard by Sturry station. I'd wondered about a later rail connection from the yard to the fairly close gravel site but no evidence at this time. Another BfA image of the same date shows the same site: https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW004812 Some years after this image was taken, there would be another rail route leaving the path, heading to the right on the image, across the marshland, reaching the Great Stour and the future bridge site.

Some more abandoned rails. Following a Prototype Questions post on Bailey Bridges I was tempted to track down a former location - no bridge remaining but OS and Google suggested it was worth a look. It's in the Sturry area near Canterbury where there were extensive gravel pits developed post war and operated until the 1970s. OS sheet 173 revised to 1965 shows an earlier track layout on the site. https://maps.nls.uk/view/197253421#zoom=8&lat=9937&lon=5135&layers=BT A later version of sheet 173, revisions to 1968, shows the rail line crossing the Great Stour to give access to later gravel workings south of the river. https://maps.nls.uk/view/197237111#zoom=7&lat=9748&lon=5117&layers=BT The bridge allowed diversion and extension of the narrow-gauge rail route that linked to the north-western corner of the site where the aggregates company retains a small presence. Most of the pit areas are flooded now and converted to a nature reserve. There was a clue to a railway heritage on the approach road to the aggregates site: Having found the former bridge site I followed the likely rail alignment, now a well-worn path heading roughly northward through woods and giving access to private fishing areas and also used by locals. To the side of the path there were short, intermittent runs of buried, decaying timber sleepers which was a good sign. Reaching the edge of the Westbere reservoir and following the pathway and former rail alignment roughly westwards, occasional pieces of rail appeared, one section with both rails in place. At another place with only one rail, almost fully-buried, there was a removed section of rail with corroded remains of steel sleepers. This laid in the grass alongside the path, rail head approx. 1 1/2" wide, rail depth just under 5". Further along, another two-rail section ran along the pathway and disappeared under a hedge. The earlier 'rails across the road' post came from the western extremity of the same pits area, and there's no hard evidence - so far - to reveal the relevance of the feature to the area.

Having posted previously the link to the evocative image of the narrow-gauge train of hoppers crossing what looked much like a Bailey Bridge: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/4823340392/in/album-72157624520255100 I couldn't find any more images on the internet and the only extra information found was that the gravel pits concerned were developed extensively from just before the second war until the 1970s, providing 6.5 millon tons of gravel for construction projects around Kent. OS maps and Google suggested it would be work a visit to the Sturry area, particularly because one bridge footing seemed to remain on the north bank. The bridge had allowed diversion and extension of the narrow-gauge rail route that linked to the north-western corner of the site where the aggregates company retains a small presence. Most of the pit areas are flooded now and converted to a nature reserve. There's no access to the south bank of the Great Stour but the area to the north is now a nature reserve with private fishing areas, and paths and riverside near the former bridge site are very popular with locals. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.298818,1.1364485,3a,75y,94.6h,84.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s92t85BBSMRtfLcr7pfEfPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-GB The following pictures show the general area and some features of the surviving bridge footings, overall 20' width and maybe 14' centres of the bridge beams. North side bridge footings in the distance: There's now a rustic and decaying seat for a nice prospect across the river, just on the former bridge centre line. To compare with the original posted picture ( https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/114303-bailey-bridges-in-the-uk/&do=findComment&comment=4506289 ), a view taken from the nominal centre of the track alignment looking roughly south, for comparison with the original 1976 image: There seemed a distant possibility of other surviving features of the site railways, and I've posted my observations on the 'Abandoned Rails' thread.

Just to say many thanks for solving the problem with long memory and assiduous research , and apologies for being late - I'm a relatively intermittent explorer of the wider RMWeb. I, too, saw the original television programme and with my family and our 'local knowledge' we were intrigued by this tiny sequence as much as with the story-line. No internet or replays then, In the passing years it came again to mind when we encountered large-scale models of the 1913 and similar vehicles but couldn't correlate these to the 'live action' as we remembered it.

In response to the last but one post [1339hrs], here's a side-by-side view with the OS, but can't get a more modern 25-inch scale map. Exact cursor co-ordinates for the location of the rails 51.30142, 1.12970. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19&lat=51.30158&lon=1.12961&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld

Thanks, good spot and good point on adjacent lines. It was a site with narrow gauge lines in the past though these particular rails seemed just too beefy and there were no other remnants nearby. I was tempted to do some exploring in the Westbere area but ran short on time. Area I was looking around was to the upper right of the sheet below, very much changed today. https://maps.nls.uk/view/103679186

Rails across a road. These cross the access road to fisheries and a nature reserve near Canterbury, formerly an aggregates site. These are short sections of main-line type rail, no apparent rails either side. Even though it looks like check rail, the paired rails seem not to be truly parallel or levelled. The 'check' gaps aren't the same and the 'gauge' is about 6' 6". No explanations are available, could be boundary markers, though in the distant past the site may have been connected to the main line through Sturry, not far beyond the vegetation in the background.

Just visible behind the tram a Bailey Bridge with a tenuous railway relevance, across the Thames and alongside the Hungerford railway bridge. This was installed for better pedestrian access to the Festival of Britain site and was in place from 1950 to 1952.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/6324135650/in/album-72157629141104119/ Should note that the tram image shows the Northumberland Avenue side of Hungerford Bridge. The Bailey foot-bridge was on the upstream side - see below. By the way, I found the picture because I was looking up trams once again. The tram is an ex-London County Council E/3 class. Route 72 was in the minority of routes using the Thames Embankment virtual reserved track since the majority used it as a bi-directional reversing loop with separate route numbers for each direction. Instead, the 72 terminated and reversed clockwise/anticlockwise at Savoy Street, but did use a [relatively rare and distinctive] reversing loop at its other terminus, Woolwich Beresford Square. https://www.flickr.com/photos/31363949@N02/11338105144/ Above link gives some more information on the bridge as well as the aerial image including a view of the southern rail approach to Hungerford Bridge. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p925668130/he12855c4#he12855c4 Additional tram view from Embankment roadway level with temporary bridge in background 1952 07 05

I have considered how to produce the effect of tunnel lining - both cast-iron and reinforced concrete - albeit in 1:35 scale. I would be creating diorama modules rather than a layout so considered clear acrylic tube to keep fingers away, with a lining of styrene sheet of suitable thickness to represent the depth of the cast-iron flanges. In practice, experiments showed that it would be hard for me to create the correct impression this way, and currently I believe that a thinner sheet will work better. I also concluded that a long continuous run of segments would not be as good as having short sections at each module end to frame each scene, with the clear tube over the whole scene. I did confer with the Copenhagen Fields project, via another web forum, on the exact dimensions of tunnel lining. They are taking a different, high-fidelity approach: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52386-copenhagen-fields/page/21/

Near Canterbury, Kent. Sturry Ballast Pits operated by Robert Brett, 2ft gauge Ruston & Hornsby loco and six side-door hoppers, [Bailey?] bridge over Great Stour river, 4 March, 1976. Image from Kevin Lane: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/4823340392/in/album-72157624520255100 :

Moving back towards temporary military bridges, the Murmansk Light Railway, looks like Simplex loco and WD bogie wagon on timber trestle bridge http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:55_Trestle_on_Murmansk_Light_Railway.jpg See a little more information, third post down on the blog page: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/russia-urban-transport-compilation.431156/page-59#post-80357848

I don't think this one has been mentioned in the thread, though it has no railway relevance. Prototype bridge, now installed in the marshes near Christchurch. I made a visit for interest and to have a look at close quarters, nearly a decade ago: In addition, there was a section on display on a Christchurch roundabout, near the site of the development establishment:

That's a really wise question and I apologise for using terminology that won't necessarily be clear to all. I'll give the best explanation I can - as a non-specialist on the detail. Wheels for a rail vehicle will have a life of their own, independent of the vehicle life and will very likely be shorter than the vehicle life. Wheels wear out by use over time, and standards are set for routine checks for correct profile and diameter. Worn wheels on an axle can be lathe turned to restore their correct profile, which reduces their diameter a little. This process can be repeated until the restored profile will make the wheel less than its 'scrapping diameter'. In the context of the wheels used by this loco, there was a separate tyre. The worn tyre can be removed and scrapped, and a new replacement tyre fitted, giving the wheelset a new lease of life commencing at the given 'new' dimension. So, during the long life of these particular locos, there could be a rear carrying wheelset at 3' 6" new diameter or at 3' 3" 'scrapping diameter or any dimension between, depending on wear and maintenance cycles. A loco still in use but with little remaining life could still be fitted with a wheelset of 'new' diameter, as the standards for maintenance will enforce replacement of wheels that are at risk of being under size and at an incorrect profile. The range of diameters can be worth knowing when modelling and choosing suitable wheels, particularly when clearances are very tight and there is an option for a slightly smaller wheel.

Just been able to look up the Metropolitan Railway 1932 diagram book. This gives the F Class 062T rear carrying wheel diameter as 3' 6". Added note: Now found the drawing with table of sizes and scrapping diameters. Confirm 3' 6" for the F Class 062T carrying wheels, scrapping diameter 3' 3". The E Class 044T bogie wheel is 3' 9 1/8" diameter, scrapping at 3' 6 1/8", so would be worth care and checking wheel sizes before making a commitment with the model.

Abandoned rail buried in a road surface but not as part of a guided transport system, more likely marking a yard boundary. Another section of bullhead has been driven into the ground midway to peg the rail in position. Noticed today in Wigton.

Made time to divert a homeward journey in order to see the latest state of play at Seaham, thanks to the mentions by colleagues further up the page. Not far away, and close to the foot of the former railway connection that's now a walking route, a couple of mini-bollards - former rail vehicle parts embedded in the street?

Having seen the information on Colnbrook and the Google images, I thought I'd take a look as I'm not too far away. I made a little detour in this morning's bus trip and obtained pictures - apologies for camera in decline. Looks like there is building going on south of the former road crossing. Remaining track north of the road crossing is overgrown. Two general views included, too.

Today I was looking for images for a completely different subject but came across this Flickr album of WR West London subjects, including a few that are relevant to the Staines branch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains-travel/albums/72157694590276374/with/40376243545/

Seen at Melton Mowbray on a recent trip, rails crossing the station approach. Apologies for the state of the camera.

Not a good answer but I've been doing pre-model research for many years on the Uxbridge - West Drayton branch. One of the book sources I found was, I think "Branch lines of West London", and there were other books, articles and internet items that helped with my line of interest. In looking for Uxbridge material, I paid attention to anything on the Staines branch, too, but don't recall a specific book on that branch.

Just briefly, following the mention of paint colour and left-overs: “And, when presented with a small amount of any of the ingredients left in the bottom of the tin/drum/barrel, there'd have been a natural tendency to chuck it into the mix rather than let it go to waste. Especially so if the container had to be cleaned out for re-use...” I'm told by someone who worked at Acton that the 'reddish' roof colour that sometimes [not always] appeared on newly-overhauled Met locos and Underground stock during the 1950s and 1960s as an alternative to grey was not a single 'colour'. It was created by pouring all the unused contents of tins from a week's work in the Paint Shop into a spare drum and using this to complete the painting. Maybe the goal was to minimise waste. The dominant colour of the Paint Shop's work at the time was ’Railway Red’ but various proportions of other colours – Maroon, Metro Brown, Cerulean Blue, a couple of greys, White and Black were included. Very soon in service, with weathering and tunnel dust and under ‘sky light’ it turned a greyish, darkish colour.

Unplanned find when I had a look around Low Moor [Bradford area]. Inset tracks remain in a vacant yard behind platform 1 of the station. The tracks seem relatively modern, rather than survivors of the long-past railway complexities in the area. Apologies for picture quality.

Great and valuable information again, many thanks, though I'm conscious of the risk taking the topic a bit far from B-P 440s, but at least it has brought me back to thinking again of Met. models and the eventual painting (and teak finish). Just for fun, just now I looked up Wikipedia on the colour name 'Carmine': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine This offers explanations for the colour's origins and the methods of production. The mention of 'lake' is interesting. On colour, couple of things that have featured in other threads long ago. A set of official colour cards [used for record and prepared for every new batch purchased]. I have these, stored somewhere safe, dry and out of the light but unfindable at the moment. Long ago I did a quick comparison between the red and the LT preserved 1938 Stock - blended invisibly, excellent match. By the way, I'm told by someone who worked at Acton that the 'reddish' roof colour that sometimes appeared on newly-overhauled stock during the 1950s and 1960s as an alternative to grey was not a single 'colour'. It was created by pouring all the unused contents of tins from a week's work in the Paint Shop into a spare drum and using this to complete the painting. Maybe the goal was to minimise waste. The dominant colour of the Paint Shop's work at the time was red but various proportions of the others above were included. Very soon in service and in the weather it turned a greyish, darkish colour. In order to return towards topic, example of model colour, painted long ago so has to be viewed in the context of variations in paint availability over time, age degradation, as well as subjectivity and lighting conditions, but done by someone who had seen each of his prototypes at close quarters, although there might be many years between 'seeing' and building his models. He was a stickler for fidelity but wasn't seeking finescale perfection. A Class model built in 1941 from wood and card, for display - however the driving wheels are only present below the tanks!

Many thanks both to Jeff Smith and to Natalie for the cross-connections between Metropolitan livery and 'Midcared'. I've been looking around for wider references and information on the latter term, having spotted 'Midcared' on a drawing related to the Metropolitan-Vickers electric locomotives.