Roy L S

Well I have added a few more quid to Hornby's coffers, I have just ordered some wagons for my 08 to play with when it arrives 😁

While there is clearly a good degree of truth in Hornby looking at new markets simply from what Simon Kohler has said, I don't think that TT120 can be solely aimed at "everyone who is not a railway modeller" period. Were that the case Hornby would not be investing in tooling items like Stanier coaches which are much more a modeller's product. To go with a Duchess in a purely "trainset" based market more Mk1s would fit the bill perfectly well From the business perspective I would think that simply to manage the risk alone a more equally balanced market of new and old would be targeted at the very least. Roy

If the comment was actually made solely to provoke a reaction then as well as being incorrect it was also utterly childish. At circa 20% of the overall British market and second only to OO, with excellent trade support, seeing new manufacturers like Sonic and Rapido coming on board and a Society with around 6,000 members N is very simply not a niche scale in the UK. For TT120 to secure even 5% of the current overall market as it stands within the next five years would be going some. To suggest they will achieve 20% even using every commercial lever at their disposal, while primarily by trying to grow the market by targeting non-modelling newcomers, especially in the current economic situation is highly unlikely to happen. Hornby is a big player in our world, and a well recognised brand the world over, but as a a company it isn't actually that large and their marketing pockets are only so deep. Roy

Agreed, the Bo-Bo diesel is a "bread and butter" item and most will suitable for covering significant timeframes with a number of livery choices right int preservation. In terms of a balance of both the 25 would be a hugely popular loco I would think and incredibly versatile. The other omission is a first generation DMU like a 101 (unless I have missed it?). Some choices are extremely odd, for example the 08 not being available in green to go alongside the BR A3 and A4s is truly head-scratching to me. I have ordered a blue one but had a green one been listed that would definitely have been chosen. Roy

@Ravenser I can see your point but there are a lot of assumptions in your comments and some discrepancies. Firstly as Hornby's chosen sales model is one of direct selling, the issue of comparison or counter-sell will not arise for anyone going into a model shop. There the counter-sell to OO will be N until and unless Hornby include retailers in their sales plans. IF they do that the whole pricing structure would have to change to allow sufficient margin for the shops, meaning prices much closer to OO I would expect (nobody knows for sure). In the meantime no retailer in their right mind is going to point a potential newcomer at a range they cannot stock. In point of fact my most local model shop is not stocking TT120 from any manufacturer as he cannot see the benefit to him commercially of allocating shelf space when he can't sell a full range of items, I am sure he will not be alone in this. If Hornby TT120 do get into shops at some point, for the above reasons I think it will inevitably be more expensive and priced closer to the OO ranges of all mainstream manufacturers, and if cost is an issue for newcomers alongside available space then the following your reasoning the likelihood is that N will be chosen. It illustrates what a difficult path Hornby have to negotiate to establish this scale and while I can see that being able to protect their own margin by selling online has benefits it also has drawbacks. I absolutely agree with your prediction that it will take 5-10 years for TT120 to establish itself fully and in its own right - probably closer to the 10, and that is with continued proactive pushing and a flow of new products continuing from Hornby. The level of investment will be dependent on initial sales and it is to be hoped that Hornby's backers will hold their nerve, as without it interest will fizzle quite quickly and it will, like TT3 before it, remain much more peripheral to the established scales. Roy

I had not heard that story, I always understood that TT3 was dropped purely because it was not a commercial success (evidenced by poor sales). TT3 always fascinated me and I do admit to having a small collection which I largely accumulated in the 1990s, of the British outline locos I think the Large Prairie and the very short lived railcar eluded me (at a price I could at the time afford anyway!). Roy

An interesting debate @Ravenserand I concede that you make some valid and thought provoking points. One in particular reflects on the type of layout envisaged, and here in particular size (and area) becoming a factor. I agree that for someone happy with a shunting plank or small end to end layout TT120 will fit in a space that allows something attractive whereas OO would very likely not. This is just the same in the opposite direction where those with reason to model in O accept similar limitations when compared to OO. Time will tell, but it is also entirely possible that TT120 will over time develop beyond RTR into a kit/scratch-builder scale too, with support from the cottage industries. We are already seeing some with a portfolio of 3D CADs re-sizing some to TT120 even at this early stage. Here, as a long time N modeller I do concede that the extra size may be an advantage, and while I will challenge robustly those who say N Modellers are only about RTR, it could be that in a more established market TT120 will suit the kit-builder more. However Hornby will have to establish their RTR market before others will have the confidence to invest significantly. As to the TT3 history, I was going from memory, I do have the Pat Hammond books but am not able to access them so thank you for sharing the stats relating to the performance of the scale. Here, the similarity between what was trying to be achieved by Triang then and Hornby now is not lost on me - a "table top" scale for a smaller home, however TT3 started out before N was on the scene (not the case now). N began to be established in the first instance by DCMT (Lone Star) and while these were British outline they were very crude but were soon followed by the likes of Arnold whose models were for the time very credible. It is absolutely true that the first British N models were not seen until slightly later, but I think the first PECO track may have been as early as 1963 with wagons, coaches and some loco kits following closely after. I think 1967 the N Gauge Society was formed, and notably PECO and Sydney Pritchard were amongst the founder members. Did N in itself "kill" TT3 or was it a flawed concept to begin with? A very fair question and one I don't know there is a definitive answer to. However, the investment in growing the range was significant, it did attract some kit manufacturers like Ks and I think maybe BEC and Gem too, but your numbers say it all, initial promising growth stalled. Fast forward sixty plus years to now and we again see Hornby investing significantly in a similar "intermediate" scale and without wanting to put a damper on things, I have to ask (in the interests of healthy debate) what has changed and why TT120 will be any more successful now than TT3 was then? If anything, with even smaller homes now and a well established N market the challenge will be even greater. This hasn't really been answered by anyone, most notably not Hornby, just that it is the "right" time and Simon K has a gut instinct about it - it must be said he has been in the business a long time, has a huge passion for model railways but that doesn't stop him being wrong occasionally. Hopefully those with a financial stake in Hornby have seem the numbers and more solid answers to these challenges! TT120 Train set sales. I would caution reading too much into the initial sales as it does seem pretty clear that the keen price point in particular has caused many existing modellers in other scales to buy a set just to see what all the fuss is about. I would suggest a good number of these buyers will go no further than that single purchase and so the initial scramble for sets will be seen retrospectively as a one off. Of more interest to me is how well the "bread and butter" 08 and wagons do, as I think this will be a much more accurate measure of success. The price point of the 08 and wagons is attractive so let's hope they do well as personally, in spite of any differences of opinion there may in terms of market etc, I think we are hopefully all agreed that TT120 not being a success will not be good for the model railway hobby in general. Roy

It is an opinion, but am not convinced that it is the case that TT120 will be competing most directly with N. Inevitably there will be some who convert from N but I actually think it is much more likely to be a threat to OO and the comparative pricing differential makes the TT120 models even more attractive for those who can see a benefit to downsizing from OO. It is also true to say that the "prize" is larger for Hornby in terms of enticing those modelling (or potentially modelling) OO into TT120 - there are far more modellers to go after within OO's much larger UK market share and a even smaller percentage of that larger number will yield much better results for Hornby. However, and just to look at things from another perspective, I am mindful that TT3 was launched in the late 1950s and initially growth was brisk and sales pretty decent, but as soon as N became a viable choice sales quickly slumped and by 1963 the game was pretty much up (although a few models were made until 1968). The average house is even smaller now than it was in 1963 so there is a case for saying that in terms of the space issue N is in an even stronger position today than it was in the 1960s. On the issue of space, you would need a layout at least 1/5 longer and wider to put a similar TT120 layout on when compared to N, but when compared to OO it would be 3/8 shorter and less deep (the comparative area difference between TT120 to OO is even more notable) . This in my view reinforces that if there is indeed a scale that TT120 will primarily compete with, it will actually more directly be competing with OO. Longer term and in terms of new entrants to the hobby it will be another choice (no bad thing), and how successful it will be in that respect will depend on many factors including how quickly a decent range is established, how competitive it is price wise and how effectively it is promoted. The point when manufacturers will have to worry about TT120 being a "threat" to their market share in any specific scale in any material way is though many years off. Roy

A fair point Les, but I was thinking more of the BR era when Black Fives could be found almost anywhere (with the possible exception of the South Coast and West Country)..

I have never watched one of Charlie's videos before but in the light of comments made on this thread I thought I would take a look. I was expecting him to absolutely savage the TT120 "Easterner" set but I couldn't see that he did. The issues identified and showed to his viewers were all evidenced and for the most part hard to dispute. He made the point that the track is trainset quality which is fine for a trainset (I have to agree - definitely more down to a price than up to a standard) he was though, I thought, pretty complimentary about the loco and coaches but identified a few niggles (as have people posting on here). Moving to the "strategy" for TT120 I did feel it became something more of a "rant" and the balance of the first part of the video was absolutely lost. I also felt his observations concerning relative size (N/TT120/OO) wasn't a true representation at all. As some may have seen from the picture I put up, I plonked my entire Easterner train in my N Gauge layout and there is absolutely no question that even if not half way between OO and N (why does it need to be?) it is still significantly larger than N. This has both advantages and disadvantages and as I have said before TT120 isn't the answer to the space issue, but certainly it is sufficiently different in size for there to be some logic to producing it. Overall it actually felt to me like his issue was more to do with TT120 diverting investment and Hornby's focus from the OO range and on top of that an opposition to the direct sales model. He wasn't therefore really looking to find any positives or offer encouragement as far as TT120 is concerned. I would therefore just look on it as a somewhat extreme opinion and one that is unlikely to garner much support in the wider modelling community. Roy

I wouldn't call the J94 the Class 66 of the steam era, that would be something more like a Stanier Black 5.

Sorry @Ravenser but as an N modeller of many years myself, your proclamation that: - There is a widespread prejudice that making , modifying, detailing or repainting rolling stock is not entirely practical in N. ...is completely wide of the mark. There are plenty modelling in N who do all of these things and your sweeping generalisation does you and your apparent "cause" (which almost seems to be to promote TT120 on behalf of Hornby regardless of other people's valid challenges) no favours. Here is the Shapeways purchased 3D printed EM1 in N I have just completed, it involved significant chassis modifications and some care in painting and finishing but if far from perfect was actually "entirely practical" - I do not consider myself to be anything more than an average modeller and I know plenty with varying levels of modelling experience in N who will have a go. N couplings (yes the Arnold type) have the big benefit of making it possible to lift vehicles directly out of a train without the contortions associated with either the OO hook and bar type or the Tillig abominations you refer to, which in my view are absolutely no way the "best of the three" - they are the single worst thing about my TT120 "Eastener" set. Indeed, for the TT120 shunting layout I plan once I have the 08, I will be taking advantage of the NEM pockets on loco and wagons, removing the Tillig monstrosities and be using Dapol "Easi-Shunts". instead. I think that trotting out numbers and percentages to try and make a case for TT120 is equally irrelevant at this point. In terms of market penetration so far maybe 2000 sets have been sold and it is very clear a fair number of those to existing modellers of other scales like me who are curious, and at about £165 after club discount (and no postage) willing to take a "punt" (almost rude not to in fact). TT120's ability to gain adequate market share to support itself as a scale in this country is simply unknown at this point, and it would seem Hornby don't really have a firm handle, as from the interview with Simon K in Railway Modeller the decision to proceed was based more on internal experience than external market research. What we do know is that there are hopes to attract new people to the scale rather than simply targeting existing modellers and use different channels for promotion but it is early days. Personally I think TT120 will carve a niche and in time maybe more support will come on board, but it is notable that on learning of Hornby's involvement Heljan didn't see an opportunity of sufficient size, and when you drill down PECO will find a market internationally for the limited track range they have so far released whether Hornby succeed with the UK range or not - very canny. I simply see TT120 as another choice, it doesn't in itself represent a radical solution that solves any perceived "problems" other scales may have and most certainly not the issue of getting a decent model railway in a small space. In its own right from what I have now seen and handled I must say that the A4 especially is a lovely model and hopefully if what follows is equally good (and reading accounts on here) QC tightened up, TT120 will sell itself as said choice or even in addition to other scales modelled. Roy

I was curious to compare TT120 to N in terms not only of size but also what difference there was between what could be accommodated in a specific space. For those who like something visual as a reference, here is my "Easterner" loco and coaches plonked on my N layout. The scale for British N is 2.065mm/ft and TT120 2.5mm/ft, I have to say I was quite surprised by how much larger TT120 is in the real world. In my opinion, if space is very limited then TT120 probably isn't the best solution as a scale in terms of how much can be fitted in a given space, especially a "roundy-roundy" but for sure it has significant benefits over OO in this respect. In terms of where TT120 "fits" I have come to the conclusion that it is best simply to look on it as another choice rather than looking at benefits or drawbacks. I have actually now ordered the blue 08 and am thinking in terms of using it to form the basis for a small shunting layout based around something Wenford Bridge "ish" in the late 70s/early 80s... Roy

There are plenty in their 70s and beyond who model in N with no problems and I am hoping that will include me. Were I to have to change scales I would most likely go for O and accept the compromise of a branch line/fiddle yard across two walls of my "den". I actually had more trouble with the TT120 couplings than I ever had with N and putting them on the track is no easier. I don't think I could ever accept the compromise of an A4 pulling four coaches, I think probably the only place that something similar may have been seen routinely is the Waverley Route. That is not to downplay what a thing of beauty the TT120 A4 is, the more you look the more you see, things like cab roof ventilators open, but not all by the same amount and yes, the lubricator drive is present! Roy

Received mine today too. I had an open mind but have to say the A4 loco is lovely. My only gripe remains the wheel standards but if that is the international standard then it really is a case of living with it if you want to model TT120 I guess. The only flaw with my A4 was the tender buffer-beam which appeared to have been glued on with spit, but that was an easy fix. I set the supplied track up on the floor (I am really getting too old for that now!) and gave the loco a run...for all of five seconds before the power unit supplied failed. I then ran it for a few laps using an old Farish controller instead, the loco runs like a swiss watch. The Mk1 coaches are very nice, directly comparing to a Farish "Blue Riband" one, no question that the Farish one is better detailed with separately fitted pipes whereas the TT120 coaches employs more "design clever" with such things moulded on. Overall though the coaches are pretty decent. The Code 80 track is very chunky, any serious modeller is I think going to go for the PECO Code 55 instead for a layout. One thing that is very clear putting TT120 and N together is that you get a heck of a lot more N in a given space, and in the area I have for a pretty decent double track N layout (where the fiddle yard can take 7 coaches), in TT120 I would at best fit a branch line type theme accommodating four coaches as a max. In terms of the Simon Kohler "fiddly" comment as regards N, I have to report that in all honesty I don't find TT120 noticeably better, especially as far as those horrible couplings are concerned. Does the scale have "legs"? I think it will find a market and may actually in my opinion attract more existing OO modellers down to the smaller scale than N up. Will it open up a "new" market? I am unconvinced but it is early days and a lot depends on how quickly Hornby grow the range as I think there is only a limited window where it will be treated as something new, the second thing is keeping the price-point competitively advantageous versus N and OO. This set at a shade over £160 with the TT120 Club discount is crazy cheap but I doubt very much it represents something sustainable, there is bound to be a loss-leader element I would think. Will I be likely to invest in more TT120 and a layout? Not right now but if I did it would be as well as not instead of my current N models, I do not see any advantages that justify changing. Roy

I had the same thought when I saw it, taking the price into consideration, people would be much better off finding an old second-hand coach body for a fiver and doing a bit of simple modelling... Roy

Just had an e-mail to advise that my Easterner set has arrived at the warehouse and will shortly be prepared for despatch. Roy

We are all entitled to our perspectives and please do not be so patronising. No I did not miss those models and indeed bought a sound fitted 08 and plus an 04 but what I have missed and remains missing is any effort to re-balance the available product range with some steam locos and coaches for them to pull even from existing tooling. The number of steam locos listed by comparison to diesels is truly pitiful and little effort appears to be made to address it in spite of a large tooling suite. As Bachmann are known to have this portfilio of tooling nobody else will touch the models.... The 319, 60 and 90 are fine models I am sure but of no interest to me, I was expressing a personal opinion based on my own (and many others') modelling interests. Roy

Well that's a wasted half an hour of my time I won't be getting back... Once again leading with the totally transparent "placebo" of further Scenecraft models at eye watering prices to try and deflect from the lack of much else and there being absolutely no new tool items in terms of rolling stock or locos. I had a lingering hope that 2023 just might be the year that the Farish brand got Bachmann's full attention, but based on this start I think that looks far from likely, and the final crumb of hope has now well and truly disappeared. Roy

I would love something steam that is brand spanking new, and surely a loco-drive sound capable Black Five would be a highly marketable proposition? However, realistically I would settle for a decent cross section of re-runs of some of the existing tool steam locos like the BR 4MT Tank. Coaches? I would love to see Mk1s in common liveries like BR maroon and Blue/Grey not things like oddball "Sealink" liveries that few people want, but as importantly a commitment to a steady drumbeat of production of batches in popular liveries like there used to be. In this respect am hoping that it will have begun to dawn on Bachmann that British N is much more of a modeller's scale than a collector's one, a case in point being the Class 20s announced last Quarter - why on earth do the Class 20 regional "special" liveries without also doing BR blue and Green ones for the main range at the same time? Anyway, more to the point is what do I expect? Very honestly, to be totally underwhelmed again, as I have been every Quarterly announcement to date, but I hold onto just a faint possibility that this Quarter may be the start of something different for British N in 2023... Roy

My Class As arrived today, and rather lovely they are too. Also much lighter than the Class Bs which means those who have ordered longer rakes shouldn't have too issues with haulage or over stretched close-couplings. Here they are, this photo doesn't show my ballasting very favourably - it honestly isn't that bad really.. Roy

Hi Ben If I recall correctly from my daughter's layout many years ago that used Fleischmann track (including a curved point), the frog is dead but there is a pickup strip down in the flangeway and continuance of current collection relies on flange contact. Therein lies the issue - fine flanges on the Hunslet very likely means no contact. Just a reflection on Les's comment, I think people do have to be realistic about "stay alive" in such tiny locos, it will help prevent stalling resulting from momentary power interruption like dirt but it won't keep the loco running several inches as may be the case with bigger capacitors in the larger scales. The best solution I feel still remains to have as many wheels picking up over the longest footprint possible. A case in point is my sound fitted black 08 below (my conversion and pre-dating the new Farish sound fitted models) this employs a permanently coupled shunter's wagon wired for pickup meaning 10 wheels picking up over a wheelbase that doubles that of the 08 alone. It is almost never gets "gapped" and slow running/sound is very reliable. Translating to the Hornby TT120 08 in particular, maybe a plug-in match truck as an option (like their OO Ruston 48DS) would help it with the dead frogs especially on their own brand track, in particular as regards any sound option? Regards Roy

Or wants...

Indeed and "Farish Land" still remains silent to date. Will 2023 finally turn out to be N's turn for some sustained attention from Bachmann across the product range?? Well we can hope, but I think the silence speaks volumes personally... Roy

Unless I am having a senior moment (I get more these days😁) I can't see Sonic Models as a manufacturer - already produced one N wagon, one loco and a new OO one is on the boat somewhere another two N locos apparently in production....