Roy L S

I agree, the Peco flangeways are, erm, generous to put it nicely. From the sound of things you aren't put off by kits, so perhaps Code 40 N Gauge track may be something to look at? Here is a pic pf a B8 turnout in Code 40 Bullhead I recently made. This will accommodate modern N wheels such as latest Farish but with a smooth ride through the frog. Yes, the kits take a bit of time to make, a number of wiring feeds and need to be dropped along with needing a slow action motor (with polarity switching for the frog) but in terms of finesse and looks there is simply no comparison when put next to Peco Code 55. These can be bought from https://www.britishfinescale.com along with plain track components, Wayne Kinney (proprietor) is really helpful. Regards Roy

Available in the sense that they have been produced fairly recently and can be purchased in most cases new or preowned by shopping around. Such is the nature of batch manufacturing these days that it is pretty much universally accepted that no manufacturer will maintain a full inventory in their warehouse. I have to agree that Dapol do tend to produce much more frequent re-runs of their models than Bachmann these days. In terms of Farish steam, as well as the J39 (due mid-year) there is also the sound upgraded 5MT to come around the same time..

The comment about Simon Kohler was of course tongue in cheek. I wasn't for a minute suggesting that a person shouldn't model the ECML in TT120 if that is their choice, simply that for it to be even remotely representative you need a lot more locos/stock than is likely to be available for a very long time to come. Of course that doesn't mean that in almost every other respect apart from rolling stock a fine TT120 layout can't be produced right here and now using Peco track, accessories and a modicum of scratch building (I look forward to seeing it), it largely depends what an individual is looking for. My chosen modelling scale is British N and has been for years but I am most certainly not so closed minded as to say it is the only possible choice, I just don't appreciate the stereotyping which is in my experience not representative, in my Club alone we have a healthy number of "N Gaugers" who are also very capable modellers in the broadest sense. To understand the range of locos and rolling stock needed to truly represent ECML post-war operation I had the privilege of being invited to operate Tony Wright's "Little Bytham" on a couple of occasions. The variety is truly mind boggling and .even in N things can only really be loosely representative, but my point was more that in a space 1/5 smaller than TT120 would take you can have something carrying a decent cross-section of trains as part of the package right now. For those who are set on TT120 I accept that point is moot. In terms of wheel standards, it was certainly my understanding that Bachmann used established international N standards for flange and wheel profiles as do the likes of RevolutioN, but I do not know if this is also true of Dapol and others. Certainly operationally I have few problems practically speaking. I would have to agree that some (not all) NGS kits in relying on generic Peco chassis are a compromise, and having put together some O wagons I appreciate your point, but whether TT120 kits will be any better is as yet an unknown, a lot will depend on volume of sales possible. Similarly whether the extra 1/5 in size will make TT120 more of a "chassis up" kitbuilder's scale is totally unknown and entirely dependent on take up of this initial range and indeed who the target Market is. If it is a new as yet untapped one then there is realistically a blank page, it could just as well be that new entrants will be looking for RTR not kits. I honestly can't see things moving seismically in the next 12 months, but at least by then people will have been able to see and handle the Tt120 offering and draw their own conclusions. As for me, I am looking forward to receiving my Easterner set, new scales don't come along at all often and this is why I believe as yet there are few conclusive answers as far as TT120 goes or how it will fit in around other established scales (if it does).. Regards Roy

Wow! Are you sure you aren't Simon Kohler writing under a pseudonym?! My next layout is in the planning stage, it will be in N and it will be ECML based. That does not stop me buying a TT120 Easterner set or feeling that because I have one I cannot possibly want the other, but please let's have some balance shall we? 1) The only TT120 loco released to date is the A3, the valve-gear is very nice, but on a comparative basis really no finer that the N counterparts from what I can see. The TT120 A4 does not have speedo and lubricator-drive fitted - the Dapol A4 does - just one example of the larger model actually having less finesse! 2) If you want to see fine wheels in N, take a look at the BachFarish A1 and A2 which have lovely chemically blackened fine wheels and valve-gear. For TT120 those "common" wheel standards does not appear a blessing, more a curse as far as I can see. The Hornby models shown have pretty coarse wheels both in flange-depth and tread sizes, not something that especially "sells" it as an alternative. 3) Track. A focus on Code 55 but all modern British N models will run on Code 40 track which is available in kit form with proper bullhead rail section fitting into chaired sleepers. It is a viable choice for those who want it. 3) Coaches - I have way in excess of 20 of the most recent BachFarish Mk1s and they are exquisite. Thus far we have only seen pictures of the Hornby ones and from that limited perspective I would say that while they look pretty nice they are certainly no better. So far It has so far been impossible to compare directly (I will be when my Easterner set arrives). I am assuming the TT120 coaches have close-coupling mechanisms allowing corridors to "kiss" with suitably short shank couplings used like N ones do? 5) If you want to model the ECML in TT120 you will need to wait a significant period of time for Gresley and Thompson coaches - these are both available in N already... 6) "Presence" - a meaningless statement that is completely open to interpretation. TT120 is just 20% bigger all round than N, and what constitutes that anyway? Arguably it can just as well mean the "presence" of a scale length train in the landscape, much easier achieved in N where it is possible for five coaches in the space four would take in TT120. On the subject of haulage the marginally bigger size/volume is irrelevant, my N locos will comfortably pull a prototypically representative train. 7) Availability - There is already a whole range of locos and stock to fit the ECML scheme available in N. Taking just transition period locos as an example, there are Class 55, 47,40.37,25, 24, 20, 08, plus 101 and 108 DMUs, in steam A4, A3, A2, A1, B1, WD 2-8-0, 8F 2-8-0, Standard 5MT, J39, Standard 4MT tender and tank locos, 3MT Tank, J50 on the horizon...and that is just off the top of my head. Of course it is not my place to comment on what people choose to model, that is entirely (as it should always be) a very personal choice. If someone elects to try an ECML layout in TT120 then that's absolutely brilliant in my view and I wish them every success, However, it remains a cast iron fact that In TT120 it will be years before a rounded representation of RTR models is available (if it ever is). Lastly, just to say I have been modelling in British N for in excess of 40 years and I am pretty astonished for it to be suggested that I and N fellow modellers should collectively be stereotyped as "shake the box" modellers. There are actually plenty of kits available in a variety of different media from a range of suppliers, including from the N Gauge society (for members), Chivers (now taken over by Roger's son), Peco to name a few. On top of this there are a wide range of 3D prints covering aspects from structures to wagons, coaches and indeed locos available. My current project - I have a Woodhead EM1 on order from Shapeways, I have sourced a chassis which will need serious modification. I have also designed and 3D printed numerous items including some Gresley Suburban coaches - admittedly not great but they didn't come out of any box. Pics below of said Gresley Suburbans, a scratchbuilt terrace including a corner shop (it has an interior) and 3D printed Quad-Art set from Shapeways (underframes scratch-built, bogies from N Gauge Society)... Take a look at Dan Hull's Nottingham Northampton Victoria layout in this month's Railway Modeller too and see all the non-RTR locos on his layout... Anyway, to conclude, there will be a long way to go before TT120 even remotely challenges British N in terms of depth of range if it ever does (which I doubt). As of now and for the foreseeable future it will therefore be impossible to model the ECML in TT120 truly authentically - it was a lot more than A3s/A4s and Mk1 coaches - this is simply a fact. I am intrigued by TT120 hence ordering the Easterner set. However for all the same reasons as TT3 failed in the 60s when N was becoming dominant I am concerned that it will today still have somewhat similar disadvantages to OO in terms of overall space saving, and being just 1/5 bigger than N will provide no particular benefit in terms of size/detail. I think (hope) it will find a "niche" and maybe if promoted in the right way may attract altogether new railway modellers, but given the online only sales strategy I can't see how it will ever gain wider visibility. Time will tell... Roy P.S. A pic of my Gresley Subs and also the 3D printed Quad set I bought (underframes scratch built) - not a box in sight!

There is one model that I cannot see mentioned on here although I find it difficult to believe it is not somewhere on RevolutioN's "radar" already and that is the Class 76 1,500 volt Bo Bo Electric loco: - Prototype completed during WW2 Ran operationally on the Woodhead Route from 1952 to 1981 thus covering BR steam, BR Transition, BR Blue Pre-TOPS and BR Blue TOPS an absolutely perfect "sweet spot" of modelling interest allowing them to operate alongside steam, green diesel, and blue diesel. Already done on OO by Heljan who have said often they have no plans for N so extremely small risk of going through the "shrink ray". Scored highly in recent D & E poll for N Gauge. One preserved. A very good candidate "Rule 1" purchases due to iconic nature and looks of model. Only ever done as kit in N, but quite old now and suitable continental chassis getting harder to come by. It follows that there are a number of livery variations to choose from, starting with BR Black, BR Brunswick with (or I think without) small yellow panel, BR Blue with full yellow front, both pre and post TOPS. "EM1" stood for Electric Mixed Traffic 1 so a loco that could be deployed on a variety of trains, passenger and freight, a number even had steam heat boilers. Farish Mk1s, Dapol Gresleys both spot on in various liveries up to and including Blue/Grey. Out of a Class of 58, aside from prototype "Tommy" another 12 were named, carrying intriguing mythical god names such as "Pluto", "Prometheus" and "Triton". In terms of viability this is a loco ripe for multiple purchases, they were (especially in later years) frequently seen double-heading MGR trains. Given the use on mineral trains in particular maybe a prospect to cross-sell the recently announced RevolutioN hopper wagons. Potential to produce complementary OHLE masts in the distinctive style of the route. Infrastructure on the route essentially unchanged from early 1950s until closure in 1981 so scope to operate more than one era prototypically on a single layout. "What if" could see Woodhead Route kept open longer or 1,500DC electrification expanded. Loco swaps (Sheffield Victoria or equivalent?). British Rail Class 76 - Wikipedia Is tis enough to form the basis for the model to be considered? Edit: it also neatly fits RevolutioN's criteria of having a number of "niche" qualities about it. Roy P.S. Yep, I'd have two at least.

Many thanks for posting the pictures. It could just be me but I am really struggling to see past those wide wheel treads and "pizza cutter" flanges, it is a total contradiction to the beautifully fine valve-gear. Regards Roy

My first one received this morning (sound fitted) is of the utmost quality in every respect, I couldn't be more impressed with it. Massive thanks to Rapido for entering the British N scene, let's hope it is the start of many models from them. I will be back for a 44 in due course. Andy and Co, Please ignore the naysayers and remember that they are a very small but disproportionately vocal (and very often mind-bogglingly unreasonable) minority. Roy

I wonder if this means Kernow will have received oe will soon get their stock of golden ochre ones (he ponders hopefully),,,, Roy

Another who has ordered the Easterner set. I am an avid N modeller and won't6 be changing scales, but I dabble a little in O so why not do the same in TT120. From what I have seen so far it is pretty impressive, the only criticism I might make is the horrible coarse Hornby track and deeper flanges, but if this is targeted at those new to the hobby maybe the3re is a certain logic to it. Will it supplant N? No, I don't think so, I think it will happily exist alongside it and for that matter OO too. I(f there had been a green 09 in the rirst batch I would have ordered one of those too.. Roy

Hi Tom Actually that is factually incorrect, British N is second only to OO in this country in terms of modelling, reportedly about 1/4 to 1/5 the size so not "very minor" as you say. There may be something in what you say about some exiting OO modellers trying 009, but in terms of market size N is second. Secondly, Bachmann do not have 009 to themselves, Peco (via Kato) produce a FR locomotive plus a lot of rolling stock, Heljan have long produced L&B locos and recently RevolutioN have revealed a V of R 2-6-2 tank loco is to be produced for Model Rail. Attractiveness is subjective I would say, and some would find a 4MT Tank or Black Five much more appealing albeit maybe not as "cute" as say a Quarry Hunslet. Strong competition from others manufacturers for N products? Yes there is inevitably competition but Bachmann has a tooling portfilio of N models already that is far and away the most comprehensive without any new tool items. Dapol have demonstrated there is demand for steam by producing re-funs from what is now comparatively (compared to recent Farish) old designs and tooling yet they sell. Sonic are new, just one loco released so far, and from what I have heard Sam (Mr Sonic) is focussing on tank locos for the initial releases. Rapido and RevolutioN have yet to announce a single steam loco, to be fair to Ben and Mike, in the sake of the first they freely admit steam is not an area of expertise. In terms of strategy I am not saying you are wrong, I honestly do not know, but if N (and especially steam) isn't a priority then I wish Bachmann would stop saying there will be "jam" next quarter while "bouncing" what few steam locos we do know about (J39 and 5MT) from a delivery around now to the middle of next year. Regards Roy

Yes, it seems Bachmann can prioritise producing new tool 009 steam locos but not (or possibly at the expense of) N, in fact in N we don't even have existing tool models to choose at the moment - just three in stock at Barwell and those in the least popular liveries which is why I suspect they are still there. OK, the 4F is supposedly incoming but it hasn't arrived yet and of known products then nothing until the J39 in May. It certainly does seem that production of 009 steam is being done at the expense of N and production slots prioritised accordingly as a deliberate policy. It is hard to see how Bachmann will deal with the shortage of British N steam locos even in the medium term yet they have a suite of tooling that is very significant, just not the will it seems. The 4MT Tank has only ever had one production run in 2 liveries, 2008 in total, surely they could sell more now and it would have been a better5 choice than the Fairburn, LMS versions of which will inevitably be slow sellers. First world problems for sure, but Bachmann could at least be honest about where priorities lie. Roy

Sadly for some reason I was half expecting there to be another delay with these. Disappointing but not a surprise. Edit: - I hadn't realised just how delayed they have actually become; they were supposed to have arrived be shipped by the end of last year! Here is a quote from N Gauge News... First samples are already being tested and it is hoped the models will be ready to ship by the end of 2021. I suspect there may be some who having paid a "non refundable" £20 deposit to Rails who could be becoming a little frustrated. The one thing I do think Rails could do is be a little more proactive in providing updates, I get lots of e-mails from them selling stuff, but not once has any of the now multiple delays for this or the OO A5 been mentioned. Roy

It would be nice to see a picture of the new chassis to get a handle on how and where the DCC chip will fit, I note that they are talking about a micro-decoder so I suspect room will be limited. On reflection, given the cost of a decent micro-decoder (e.g. Zimo) it appears it may be worth just buying the DCC fitted version anyway! Roy

Hi Les While in OO and TT3 the scale/gauge discrepancy is noticeable (I have some of both), in N you are talking about 0.4 of a mm. If you were to stand a section of N "Finetrax" next to the same product made for the 2mm Scale Association I would challenge you to be able to spot the difference from any normal viewing distance. But then the 2mm SA is about much more than gauge, it is about finer standards across the board. What cannot be disputed is that the scale/gauge ratio for TT120 is the same as for the rest of the world pretty much, and for me this could be a significant factor in people's choices. I have the A4 set on order so that I can draw my own conclusions, but I have to say that I am unimpressed by the track/wheel standards, N lost those "pizza cutters" years ago and yet here they are again with TT120, perhaps this is the flip side (drawback) of trying to share common standards? I was unable to make Warley due to being hit by a fluey cold, so haven't yet had the chance to see TT120 with the Mk1 eyeball, but if only circa 1/5 larger than N in all dimensions I am struggling to see how it will carve a niche. It is a brave move by Hornby and I hope it does, not least because the OO market is now so crammed with competing brands it is difficult to see how any business will benefit in the longer term if the Market isn't growing to match. Roy

There is still a thread open on "Revolution Trains" for this loco, but as it is now a Rails exclusive it felt more appropriate to start a thread here. Last I heard from Rails this loco was still expected to be delivered Dec 22/Jan 23. Sod's law I came down with a flu bug yesterday so was unable to go to Warley today as I had planned. I was planning to drop by the Rails stand for an update and so was wondering if anyone else did and is able to share the latest news? Not the end of the world if not. Roy

Looking at the RRP (£110 for non-DCC discounted to £93.50 at Rails) it would seem that an effort has been made to keep the price down, in which case perhaps their omission is more understandable. In today's economic climate probably not a bad call. Roy

Hattons and Rails are both quoting £84.95, I can't see that Rails have yet provided any price details for their spoof BR maroon one. Regards Roy

Looking fab, presumably production samples? does this mean (hopefully) that delivery is still on the cards before the end of 2022? Roy

Does it come sound fitted with lots of Charles quotes?

DCC smells to go with DCC sound???

Agreed, to my knowledge a livery never done before by Bachmann or Farish on their different versions of this loco, and one I just cannot resist, so one duly ordered. Roy

I really enjoyed watching the build, truly inspiring work and such incredible skill especially given it was all done with hand-tools, I am an N gauge modeller and it is work like this that really illustrate the difference between it and 2mm scale. Roy

I have been modelling in British N since my teens from the mid 70s and I don't "assume" detail and fidelity sells in the N market, I know it does. Of course, it is a given that models must also run well. they can't just look pretty (think some early Dapol steam). Kato may be a complete system in Japan, and possibly the US too but in the UK there is but one train in 1:148 so it is largely an irrelevance in the context of what we are discussing, Hornby maybe cannot afford TT120 to fail, but ultimately it will be the Market that decides whether it does or not. and to be fair, that Market may be a different one completely to British N, certainly that seems to be Simon K's vision, but it remains to be seen whether it exists to the extent Hornby believes. As to some kind of conspiracy theory regarding the price of Farish products and that they are starving the Market to keep prices high, respectfully I think that it completely and utterly wrong. Prices of raw materials have rocketed, the cost of power has gone up, wages have risen in China over the last few years and shipping costs have reached levels that would never have been envisaged a few years back. Given the detail of Farish models, it requires a lot of parts and therefore greater assembly time and here they are especially vulnerable to wage costs and retention of skilled staff. Bachmann (and others) have to make a profit to survive, and products will be priced to the end-user with that in mind. They do not make obscene margins and nor do their retailers, but no business will survive long pricing at a loss. Will the next run of Mk1s be £80? I think that is very unlikely, but to allow sufficient margin for everyone, somewhere in the high £40's seems conceivable. Where I absolutely do agree with you is that Bachmann's GF product range of late includes far too many obscure and "niche" items, and this appears to be at the expense of the production of "bread and butter" items. British N is much more of a modeller's scale than a collector's one and as I have already said, Bachmann do need to wake up to this and prioritise production accordingly. I noticed in my Bachmann Times that as well as the items announced, previously announced re-runs of the Class 24 and Warship also appear to be due in the New Year which is a positive sign, but what troubles me most of all is the lack of steam coming through, especially in BR liveries, like green diesels they always sell like hot cakes. Anyway, time will tell, but perhaps it is more likely to be the likes of Sonic, RevolutioN and Rapido who give Bachmann the "wake up call" as far as British N is concerned, rather than Hornby? Roy

I think the jury is well and truly out as far as TT is concerned at this point. Yes, Hornby have grand plans, but as yet apart from track not a single product delivered, the quality is unknown and nowhere near the number of manufacturers support it as do N (In fact Heljan and Gaugemaster have pulled out). Hornby's marketing/sales strategy is yet to be validated and many see cutting out model shops as both morally and strategically questionable. Looking at the A3s and A4s (albeit we are told they are pre-production) I do not personally think they compare especially well to the quality of models we are seeing in N (for example compare those locos to the roughly comparable Farish A1 and A2 - I mean just look at the depth of the "Pizza Cutter" flanges on the Hornby models...). The Mk1s from the limited pics we have seen appear to have "Design Clever" written all over then. So, in spite of Simon Kohler's inevitably positive sales pitch, it is just as easy to argue that TT120 has none of the advantages of N but retains many of the disadvantages of OO, especially in the smaller home. Roy

Hi Andy I'm not aware that Bachmann have said that but could be I missed it somewhere, certainly this Winter's announcements have not been "bumper" by even the most optimistic person's measure! Roy