'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

I don't think I've seen many weathered examples of these beautiful coaches but I want to give a shout out to @toboldlygoof this parish and my layout thread for this full brake that's been given his treatment.

 

Just how did that carriage get into such a filthy state in the pre-Great War world? Questions will be asked of the C&W Department!

[Miss Prism]

And there was me thinking it looked rather clean.

 

[Crantock]

Does anyone remember "The First Great Train Robbery" film.  I think Hattons should (agree a license) and do a tribute pack.  I mean what could go wrong?  Perhaps ModelU could hire a Donald Sutherland and a Sean Connery lookalike.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Great_Train_Robbery

[jhb171achil]

On 14/11/2022 at 21:50, Compound2632 said:

 

Claret is more or less the default colour for railway carriages - there has to be a conscious decision away from it! (Vide the GWR 1912-1922.) 

 

But would it be reasonable to equate the GS&WR colour with L&NWR plum?

Certainly reasonable enough, yes - though the GSWR tended to have a slightly more brownish tint - but for a model, unless one was to be ultra- perfectionist, perfectly fine in my view / and I’ve seen samples of both originals!

[jhb171achil]

11 hours ago, tractionman said:

 

This has got me thinking, something BCDR, perhaps based on Newcastle (Co Down), from a livery perspective which of the current Hattons' offering of 6-wheelers would work best for BCDR? The SECR ones? Or MR?

 

cheers,

 

Keith

The BCDR designs were very different, unfortunately!

 

The BCDR was building new six-wheelers into the 1920s and by the time most of their system closed in 1950, they had barely a dozen bogies in total. 
 

However apart from body design, which has many types with straight, flat sides, and a completely different window style, height and spacing to the Hattons (and Hornby) stock, uniquely among Irish lines they did not use the standard 30ft length; many of their post-1895 types had chassis up to 35ft long, and there’s just nothing comparable.

 

The GOOD news is that Worsley Works do “scratch-aid” kits of these. Fiddly, but do-able, though a proven RTR chassis would be a boon.

 

Almost no Irish six-wheelers are like ANY British ones in design, length or anything; but there’s an exception to every rule: the standard GSWR stock is VERY good as a match with these generic Hattons ones; I knew it when I first saw the initial announcement, a few years ago, and went straight for my GSWR carriage diagram records to confirm!

 

For a western branchline (and my own beloved D16 “Achill Bogie” too), I’m afraid we’d need a MGWR design - even more different!

[tractionman]

many thanks @jhb171achil for this detailed information, so in essence six wheel stock of GSWR type works best for the Hattons designs.

 

all the best,

 

Keith 

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, jhb171achil said:

However apart from body design, which has many types with straight, flat sides, and a completely different window style, height and spacing to the Hattons (and Hornby) stock, uniquely among Irish lines they did not use the standard 30ft length; many of their post-1895 types had chassis up to 35ft long, and there’s just nothing comparable.

 

But of course these models are not an exact match for any British 6-wheeler either and indeed are being offered in liveries which correspond to panelling styles that depart from that modelled by as much or more than does the B&CDR style. So if I were a County Down modeller I'd be using them on a "better than nothing" basis just as much as if I were a Great Northern (England) modeller. The models scale to 32 ft length, which is perhaps a bit on the long side for the average of British 6-wheelers as well as Irish ones, although not without precedent on the larger island. The panelling style modelled was chosen as being the most generic - any other would probably have been too readily identifiable as that of a specific company.

[johnd]

10 hours ago, Crantock said:

Does anyone remember "The First Great Train Robbery" film.  I think Hattons should (agree a license) and do a tribute pack.  I mean what could go wrong?  Perhaps ModelU could hire a Donald Sutherland and a Sean Connery lookalike.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Great_Train_Robbery

 

Careful with what you say a private message to hattons may have been advised, now Hornby have been alerted I fear a train set may be on its way soon !

[PhilJ W]

13 hours ago, Crantock said:

Does anyone remember "The First Great Train Robbery" film.  I think Hattons should (agree a license) and do a tribute pack.  I mean what could go wrong?  Perhaps ModelU could hire a Donald Sutherland and a Sean Connery lookalike.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Great_Train_Robbery

 

2 hours ago, johnd said:

 

Careful with what you say a private message to hattons may have been advised, now Hornby have been alerted I fear a train set may be on its way soon !

Although filmed in Ireland the film was set in south-east England on the SECR.

[Northroader]

[Compound2632]

I presume there was some "real" rolling stock lurking under the faux-1850s facade? The engine was, I gather, one of the preserved 101 / J15 0-6-0s suitably dressed-up - the outside frames are particularly entertaining! (I think that's the regular spectacle plate, just the cab side sheets and roof removed?)

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I presume there was some "real" rolling stock lurking under the faux-1850s facade? The engine was, I gather, one of the preserved 101 / J15 0-6-0s suitably dressed-up - the outside frames are particularly entertaining! (I think that's the regular spectacle plate, just the cab side sheets and roof removed?)

At least they put the effort in and didn't use a Jinty hauling Mk.1's.

[jhb171achil]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I presume there was some "real" rolling stock lurking under the faux-1850s facade? The engine was, I gather, one of the preserved 101 / J15 0-6-0s suitably dressed-up - the outside frames are particularly entertaining! (I think that's the regular spectacle plate, just the cab side sheets and roof removed?)

The "rolling stock" was made out of plywood, with only one vehicle having an actual interior, specially for the film, on modern, vacuum braked 1960s chassis from scrapped "tin vans"! All scrapped now, and none bearing the remotest resemblance to anything Irish - but then, it wasn't meant to be set here.

[jhb171achil]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But of course these models are not an exact match for any British 6-wheeler either and indeed are being offered in liveries which correspond to panelling styles that depart from that modelled by as much or more than does the B&CDR style. So if I were a County Down modeller I'd be using them on a "better than nothing" basis just as much as if I were a Great Northern (England) modeller. The models scale to 32 ft length, which is perhaps a bit on the long side for the average of British 6-wheelers as well as Irish ones, although not without precedent on the larger island. The panelling style modelled was chosen as being the most generic - any other would probably have been too readily identifiable as that of a specific company.

Indeed - and the "better than nothing" idea is very much a practical idea. As I mentioned, there ARE kits for the purist. If painted plain maroon with BCDR insignia, they'd certainly be "better than nothing"; I would certainly make use of them if modelling the BCDR - indeed, with almost no bogie coaches on that system, a pile of these Hattons coaches would probably have to represent 100% of the layout's carriage fleet.

[jhb171achil]

12 hours ago, tractionman said:

many thanks @jhb171achil for this detailed information, so in essence six wheel stock of GSWR type works best for the Hattons designs.

 

all the best,

 

Keith 

Very much so. I did post somewhere or other that at a stretch in the right livery they're close enough to the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore Railway; buy them in LNWR livery (six-wheelers, not the four-wheelers) and there ye go. All you have to do - if a further step in accuary is wished for - is to remove the LNWR crests and get DNGR ones made to replace them. A nice touch, actually.

 

But yes, they are best matched with the GSWR, and thus its successors, GSR & CIE. Luckily, (a) the GSWR was ireland's biggest railway company, and (b) after the 1925 amalgamation former GSWR coaches spread en masse to the DSER, and odd examples were to be seen on the former CBSCR and MGWR. A GSWR full brake was even noted towards the end of services on the Achill branch, as well as penetrating deep into the realm of MGWR branch lines. In the late 50s, a GSWR 6-wheel full brake was to be seen both on the Ballaghaderreen and Ballinrobe branches.

 

The same is actually true of the Hornby ones, however they are not available in Irish liveries!

 

My own layout was initially planned as a fictitious location somewhere in the west, thus an MGWR area. However, a total lack of any form of MGWR carriage stock, and even of anything British which could even remotely be converted - however roughly - to a MGWR prototype, led me to shift my imaginary terminus to some place in West Cork or West Kerry - deep into GSWR land.

 

[Northroader]

Now, if you’re taken with the Hattons coaches with the CIE two tone green finish, may I give you a helpful push with this link to a lovely scenic route in the West of Ireland that they were running on still,in the 1950s. G’wan, g’wan:

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Northroader

[GeoffBird]

14 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Now, if you’re taken with the Hattons coaches with the CIE two tone green finish, may I give you a helpful push with this link to a lovely scenic route in the West of Ireland that they were running on still,in the 1950s. G’wan, g’wan:

 

   Was not Valencia the most westerly station in Europe at this time?

[amdaley]

1 minute ago, GeoffBird said:

   Was not Valencia the most westerly station in Europe at this time?

Valentia 😏

[Northroader]

That’s right.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I presume there was some "real" rolling stock lurking under the faux-1850s facade? 

 

One of these coaches was built around a diesel locomotive to assist the steam loco.

 

See underframe of third coach from the camera.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Colin_McLeod
typo

[GeoffBird]

13 hours ago, amdaley said:

Valentia 😏

 

I copied it from the caption on the film which is thus incorrect-  "Valencia" of course is in Spain-   But some wonderful photos of Irish railways going back tp the 30s-   Especially there are some in the DN&G section that look just like the LNWR "Genesis" coaches.  Not surprising as the locos and coaches were originally supplied by the LNWR-

Edited November 17, 2022 by GeoffBird
updated & corrected information

[60027Merlin]

A couple of photos of the B. R. Departmental coaches which I weathered for a friend recently, as after purchasing them, he preferred that they were not in a clean and tidy state!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Some departmentals here c.1958.

[jhb171achil]

On 16/11/2022 at 20:29, Northroader said:

Now, if you’re taken with the Hattons coaches with the CIE two tone green finish, may I give you a helpful push with this link to a lovely scenic route in the West of Ireland that they were running on still,in the 1950s. G’wan, g’wan:

 

A very interesting one. This is a lifting train, unfortunately (wish that line was still open!) on the Farranfore - Valentia line. The "coach" is actually a purpose-built PW breakdown van, rather than a converted coach. There were one or two of them. It is painted a reddish-brown, again unique as all goods stock was grey, and all PW / maintenance stock was either all grey or all black. This makes it easy to identify in the distance in photos where it's in among other stuff!

[jhb171achil]

14 hours ago, 60027Merlin said:

A couple of photos of the B. R. Departmental coaches which I weathered for a friend recently, as after purchasing them, he preferred that they were not in a clean and tidy state!

 

 

 

 

 

 

SUPERB work! VERY realistic!