'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi guys,

 

With the first of our newly tooled Genesis coaches now with customers, we have been inundated with suggestions for other liveries to produce. There has been one standout suggestion that we have decided to append onto our Batch 2 run, the Irish Railways CIE colours.

CIE had a fleet of 6-wheel coaches inherited from many of the old companies of Ireland, with the ex-GSWR fleet being one of the most prominent. This is what we have used for inspiration for the livery application for our coaches, as the features closely resemble the prototype.

 

We are not just producing 1 livery however, we are covering all 3 liveries that CIE used with this type of coach:

• CIE Dark green (used until early 1960s)
• CIE Light green (used Late 1950s to Mid 1960s)
• CIE black & tan (used Early 1960s)

These coaches are priced the same as the rest of the range, with single coaches available at £33 and a pack of 4 (in Dark Green livery only) priced at £120. They will launch in Late 2023/ Early 2024 along with our other Batch 2 coaches.

 

View the full announcement HERE

 

 

[Compound2632]

@Edwardian, best three minutes' viewing in a good while. Colour film of the 1890s! (Barring the CIE livery.) And aren't those carriages in good condition, for vehicles sixty or more years old? Superb detail of the interior of a first-class compartment. 

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

best three minutes' viewing in a good while.  

 

Ten minutes - I've watched it three times now!

[Michael Hodgson]

Is this an attempt to pre-empt an Irish-based manufacturer - or am I being unduly cynical?

 

Worthily filling a gap in the market no doubt, but I would have thought one or two of the Batch 3 liveries might have been at least as much in demand and should have claimed priority.  I'm thinking S&DJR, Caley & NER in particular.

 

The range would suit a number of other pre-grouping companies too, the HR, NBR, G&SWR as well as the several Welsh Valley companies, though the market for those is probably more limited.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Worthily filling a gap in the market no doubt, but I would have thought one or two of the Batch 3 liveries might have been at least as much in demand and should have claimed priority.  I'm thinking S&DJR, Caley & NER in particular.

 

Has anything been said to suggest that this CIE-liveried batch will displace or push back any other scheduled livery?

[Michael Hodgson]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ten minutes - I've watched it three times now!

 

Hope you've also seen what the locals have done more recently

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Has anything been said to suggest that this CIE-liveried batch will displace or push back any other scheduled livery?

Yes I would say so, as Batch 3 have still not got a date to the best of my knowledge, whereas the CIE versions have the same date as the rest of Batch 2 - and by implication batch 3 would follow 2 anyway.

[stephennicholson]

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Has anything been said to suggest that this CIE-liveried batch will displace or push back any other scheduled livery?

Their post says "appended to batch 2" so I would interpret that as being additional, rather than replacing a previously announced livery.

[Moxy]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm surprised that Irish liveries weren't announced sooner. The CIE liveries pretty much count as Modern Image! I must dig out the Irish Carriages book I've got somewhere.* Many of the long-surviving 6-wheelers originated with the GS&WR, where they were painted claret. What was Great Southern livery? 

 

*Desmond Coakham, Irish Broad Gauge Carriages: a Pictorial Introduction. I can't find my copy...

 

 

According to said book, Great Southern livery was the same as GS&WR livery, just with different crests and lettering from 1925 - 1930, described in the book as purple lake or purple brown.

 

1930 - 35, GSR started to paint their bogie coaches chocolate & cream, not unlike that Swindon based railway.  6 wheelers however were all over brown.  Shade not specified, although it does speculate it's probably something like Pullman umber brown.

 

1935 - 44, GSR started to paint their coaches crimson lake. Again exact shade is not given, but it does mention a similarity to contemporary LMS/NCC practice in the lettering style.

 

1944 onwards is CIE dark green, as modelled by Hattons. (and 1950s/60s as appropriate).

[Moxy]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Edwardian, best three minutes' viewing in a good while. Colour film of the 1890s! (Barring the CIE livery.) And aren't those carriages in good condition, for vehicles sixty or more years old? Superb detail of the interior of a first-class compartment. 

 

It is sobering to think that film is seventy years old this year.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Moxy said:

It is sobering to think that film is seventy years old this year.

 

It is quite likely that more time has passed since that film was made than passed between the building of those carriages and its making.

[jhb171achil]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm surprised that Irish liveries weren't announced sooner. The CIE liveries pretty much count as Modern Image! I must dig out the Irish Carriages book I've got somewhere.* Many of the long-surviving 6-wheelers originated with the GS&WR, where they were painted claret. What was Great Southern livery? 

 

Appropriate RTR locos are (or have been) available from 00 Works - the ubiquitous GS&WR Class 101 / GSR J15 0-6-0 and the rather less useful,** though undoubtedly charming, CB&SCR / GSR J24 0-6-0ST. 

 

*Desmond Coakham, Irish Broad Gauge Carriages: a Pictorial Introduction. I can't find my copy...

 

**Because there were only five of them and they were confined to the CB&SCR, with only three seeing any service with the GSR, by which time they were all different, only one being classed J24 per the 00 Works model.

GSWR livery was indeed a "claret" colour - a sort of very very dark maroon with a distinct brownish tint. The GSR continued this until the late 1920s when main line stock only (not six-wheelers, narrow gauge or secondary stock) were painted chocolate and cream with black lining. From about 1933 the GSR painted everything - from old narrow gauge four-wheelers to brand new "Bredins" to run on the Cork main line - in a shade of maroon identical to that of the LMS in Britain, with yellow lining.

 

The CIE dark green with lining above and below windows was introduced in 1945 when CIE was formed, and maintained after CIE was nationalised in 1950. In 1955, any repaints were done in the lighter shade, with one single waist line and no logo. As the new black'n'tan livery was being introduced in the early 60s, the very last of the six-wheelers were being withdrawn at the same time, so no passenger-carrying ones ever carried it. However, of six full vans which survived another few years, three DID get this livery; the last known working of them being in 1968.

[jhb171achil]

3 hours ago, Moxy said:

 

According to said book, Great Southern livery was the same as GS&WR livery, just with different crests and lettering from 1925 - 1930, described in the book as purple lake or purple brown.

 

1930 - 35, GSR started to paint their bogie coaches chocolate & cream, not unlike that Swindon based railway.  6 wheelers however were all over brown.  Shade not specified, although it does speculate it's probably something like Pullman umber brown.

 

1935 - 44, GSR started to paint their coaches crimson lake. Again exact shade is not given, but it does mention a similarity to contemporary LMS/NCC practice in the lettering style.

 

1944 onwards is CIE dark green, as modelled by Hattons. (and 1950s/60s as appropriate).

Those dates are slighly incorrect; for the record: The chocolate and cream first appeared in the late 1920s, and was confined to top-link main line stock. Secondary stock including all six-wheelers remained the old crimswon lake of the GSR, but as you say with GS markings. It wasn't brown but was occasionally mistaken for it, due to the effects of weathering and the fact that secondary stock and paintbrushes rarely met!

 

What was described as "crimson lake" is actually an extremely dark maroon. Think of a pint of Guinness held up to the light - it looks brown or even black, but is actually a very dark red! That is the colour used from 1925 UP to 1933 - the shade used AFTER thaqt date was akin to LMS mkaroon in Britain and it is this which lasted until 1945. CIE came into being on 1.1.45, so it is during that year rather than 1944 that green started to appear. Just details, I know, but there will be someone out there who might like that clarified.

 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, jhb171achil said:

GSWR livery was indeed a "claret" colour - a sort of very very dark maroon with a distinct brownish tint. 

 

I suspect that when the NER-liveried batch arrives, the colour and lining style may be found to be a near enough match for GS&WR livery. (And also for G&SWR livery!) Or possibly just a bit too much on the red side?

[jhb171achil]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I suspect that when the NER-liveried batch arrives, the colour and lining style may be found to be a near enough match for GS&WR livery. (And also for G&SWR livery!) Or possibly just a bit too much on the red side?

Indeed - that had occurred to me too, but as long as you alter the chassis to black, the shade is about right for GSR maroon, but too light for GSWR livery.

 

GSWR livery - which occasionally had white upper panels on main line BOGIE stock between 1906 and about 1915, can be seen perfectly reproduced on a model in the UFTM in Cultra in a glass case, and on ex-GSWR No. 836, preserved with equivalent accuracy at Downpatrick.

 

[Northroader]

The Hattons announcement has gone down a storm over on the Irish Railway Modellers site today. This side of the Irish Sea, you’d have to search far and wide for four and six wheelers carrying passengers after the 1920s, but in Eire they were still very common on country branch lines, and some as reserve capacity, into the 1950s. I visited the Republic about 1955, and was very taken with the CIE livery. My understanding is that in the post war nationalisation, the GSR went in with Dublin buses, and adopted their livery, a dark green with two eau de nil stripes, and a totem obviously cribbed from London Transport, with “go faster” wings added. As a bus livery, it bore comparison as a modern, smart appearance with the current surviving big four coaches and newer BR schemes. (To me the later “black and tan” scheme was a big step backwards) So, if you fancy pregroup trains in a post WW2 setting, the Emerald Isle is well worth looking at.

As to the Ballyglunin setting and film, this shows such a train to perfection, although the actual Maam Cross is on a different line, and is currently the scene of an heroic restoration attempt:

 https://www.facebook.com/connemararailwayman/

[jhb171achil]

5 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The Hattons announcement has gone down a storm over on the Irish Railway Modellers site today. This side of the Irish Sea, you’d have to search far and wide for four and six wheelers carrying passengers after the 1920s, but in Eire they were still very common on country branch lines, and some as reserve capacity, into the 1950s. I visited the Republic about 1955, and was very taken with the CIE livery. My understanding is that in the post war nationalisation, the GSR went in with Dublin buses, and adopted their livery, a dark green with two eau de nil stripes, and a totem obviously cribbed from London Transport, with “go faster” wings added. As a bus livery, it bore comparison as a modern, smart appearance with the current surviving big four coaches and newer BR schemes. (To me the later “black and tan” scheme was a big step backwards) So, if you fancy pregroup trains in a post WW2 setting, the Emerald Isle is well worth looking at.

As to the Ballyglunin setting and film, this shows such a train to perfection, although the actual Maam Cross is on a different line, and is currently the scene of an heroic restoration attempt:

 https://www.facebook.com/connemararailwayman/

Not just the south; the mainly suburban Belfast & Co Down Railway was populated almost ENTIRELY by six-wheelers right up to closure of most of it by the nationalised UTA in 1950! Even then, some of those coaches ran briefly on the Larne line. the BCDR was building NEW six-wheelers well into the 1920s, after Britain was withdrawing them.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achil said:

Not just the south; the mainly suburban Belfast & Co Down Railway 

 

... another claret line I believe?

[JohnR]

I really wish Hattons would stop doing this - I have an urge to model a rural Irish branch line now! Now what can I use in place of an Achill Bogie?

[jhb171achil]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... another claret line I believe?

Pretty much; LMS maroon.

 

However, the BCDR had that colour long before the LMS or its predecessor - it seems to have been a sort of "generic" dark maroon used by many companies all over the world. In Ireland, and again long before the LMS, the same type of shade was used by the Clogher Valley Railway, the Cavan & Leitrim Railway, the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties Railway, the original Fintona Horse Tram (!), the DSER and DWWR, the WLWR and the BCDR.... On the BCDR it lasted from very early days right through to the UTA takeover in 1949. When most of the line closed in April 1950, most carriages were still maroon......

 

The GSWR and early GSR shades were a great deal darker.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, jhb171achil said:

Pretty much; LMS maroon.

 

However, the BCDR had that colour long before the LMS or its predecessor - it seems to have been a sort of "generic" dark maroon used by many companies all over the world. In Ireland, and again long before the LMS, the same type of shade was used by the Clogher Valley Railway, the Cavan & Leitrim Railway, the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties Railway, the original Fintona Horse Tram (!), the DSER and DWWR, the WLWR and the BCDR.... On the BCDR it lasted from very early days right through to the UTA takeover in 1949. When most of the line closed in April 1950, most carriages were still maroon......

 

The GSWR and early GSR shades were a great deal darker.

 

Claret is more or less the default colour for railway carriages - there has to be a conscious decision away from it! (Vide the GWR 1912-1922.) 

 

But would it be reasonable to equate the GS&WR colour with L&NWR plum?

[E100]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Is this an attempt to pre-empt an Irish-based manufacturer - or am I being unduly cynical?

 

Worthily filling a gap in the market no doubt, but I would have thought one or two of the Batch 3 liveries might have been at least as much in demand and should have claimed priority.  I'm thinking S&DJR, Caley & NER in particular.

 

The range would suit a number of other pre-grouping companies too, the HR, NBR, G&SWR as well as the several Welsh Valley companies, though the market for those is probably more limited.

 

I assume you are meaning IRM. Possibly but they wouldn't do a generic coach anyway. If anything it allows them to focus on locos rather than a specific coach type which is restrictive within an already somewhat niche modelling scene.

 

I agree in that I would love some HR to go with my Jones Goods and some NBR to go with Maude. The NBR ones would go down well based on scottish modellers of the west highland line such as myself.

[murphaph]

Folks I have been paying very little attention to this topic as I model irish outline in 21mm but now Hattons have gone and announced a series of Genesis 6 wheelers in CIE liveries from the 50's & 60's. The big question for me is, has anyone regauged these to EM or P4 yet? They look like they might actually be doable (3d printing some replacement axle box units) but I am only going by pics of the undersides of the engineering samples. I would appreciate any information any current owners have on regauging.

Edited November 15, 2022 by murphaph

[tractionman]

16 hours ago, jhb171achil said:

 What was described as "crimson lake" is actually an extremely dark maroon.

 

 

This has got me thinking, something BCDR, perhaps based on Newcastle (Co Down), from a livery perspective which of the current Hattons' offering of 6-wheelers would work best for BCDR? The SECR ones? Or MR?

 

cheers,

 

Keith

[gwrrob]

I don't think I've seen many weathered examples of these beautiful coaches but I want to give a shout out to @toboldlygoof this parish and my layout thread for this full brake that's been given his treatment.