Hornby Tier System- An Update.

[DY444]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

I’d interpreted andyman7’s quote, to which you were replying, as meaning that Hornby, unlike the smaller specialist suppliers, still try to offer a complete toy railway ecosystem to the public (locos, stock, track, buildings, control systems, scenery) under one brand - hence their wider profile.  The smaller specialist suppliers may now be widening their reach *amongst enthusiasts* by picking off “bog standard” items of stock previously associated with main range Hornby, but if you’re a family looking for a home hobby you can’t buy a complete model railway from Accurascale.

 

Richard

 

Hmm, andyman7 said:

 

"It is very clear that these specialist manufacturers can pick off certain areas that Hornby are unable or unwilling to serve"

 

which, in the case of the class 31, class 56 and MGR wagons, is not true as these are items that Hornby have been willing and able to serve.

 

If anything the reality is the precise reverse of what andyman7 said; namely that Hornby are willing and able to serve certain areas that the smaller manufacturers probably won't such as the wider model railway/toy train ecosystem, controllers, scenic items, track mats, starter train sets, systems for very young children etc etc.

[Pandora]

A friend with a senior position in car retail tells me the car  business is booming,  used cars appreciated by 25%, and the shortage of new cars into the showrooms means not too much haggling as  it is a sellers market. Is that the Hornby aim,  new models in short supply,  rationed to the retailers,  high prices/minimal discounting, even better supplied to pre-order, paid for in advance by the retailer or the customer. VW have announced a similar strategy for the rest of the decade, fewer cars to be built and sold, but each of a high sales price with a high profit margin.

[eldomtom2]

24 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Apart from public-facing TV shows, Playtrains, selling in garden centres, department stores etc...

They undoubtedly put some effort in. But it doesn't change that their actual low-end production is a confusingly branded mess.

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Apart from public-facing TV shows, Playtrains, selling in garden centres, department stores etc...

 

Not forgetting those Family fun packs. I thought they were a great idea. 

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I had a discussion about this years ago on the Oxford stand at the London Toy Fair. My question was why a new diecast aircraft wasn't offered in GWR livery - the answer was that a new tooling will largely sell in any colour. You keep the more interesting livery for a later run as it will maintain sales. This was based on their sales data, not guesswork, and seems logical to me.

 

I agree that worked perfectly well in the past. The current situation is that it seems to be very hard to secure additional production slots, so reruns appear a lot later after announcement and they can end going through one or two price increases (the second batch of Merchant Navies were eventually appeared when joined by a 3rd batch which had a newly tooled tender). This leads to a lot of people buying a first run production to avoid the delay/increase of a possible future release (which we can never be sure will happen) and then ignoring the future run because some other all new model will have appeared (and there are lots of other new models these days). 

I suspect the number of people cracking for a second model in a bright livery are fewer than they used to be and many buying from the second run may not have been interested in the first run.

A personal example, I loved the Pecket when it came out but they did not do the loco I wanted. So I left it at that. Then Bear (a likely model as the prototype was used during research) was announced in 2019 and finally appeared 2022... it was on my list either way and I was not prepared to accept another Pecket in the mean time. 

[DCB]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I had a discussion about this years ago on the Oxford stand at the London Toy Fair. My question was why a new diecast aircraft wasn't offered in GWR livery - 

I assume this was a pre war De Haviland Rapide or similar.   I just have this image in my mind of a B 52 in chocolate and cream with shirt button emblem.   

[Roger Sunderland]

On 10/04/2022 at 13:55, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not my experience of Hornby. Far from it.

 

Over the last year or so I've bought at least twenty Hornby locomotives* and not one of them have had a problem. I don't think I've had a problem with a Hornby model in over 45 years of buying them. Maybe I'm lucky. But I reckon I'm typical of most purchasers.

 

Is it a case of those that have a problem with a model shout loudest whilst those that don't have problems don't say anything, and if they do they are ignored as it doesn't fit in to peoples agenda?

 

And yes, some do seem to have an agenda, usually those that constantly complain they don't make "modern" trains then say they wouldn't buy them even if they did. Proof is in the now closed "Titfield" thread. Most of the people in that thread were just using it as an excuse to kick Hornby, most weren't interested in buying a Rapido one either.

 

 

*Not including a full set of Coronation Scot and about a dozen GWR Collett coaches.

 

 

 

Jason

If you ask most retailers whose products they get returned most Hornby or Bachmann then it will be Hornby. Shocking quality control.

[andyman7]

8 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Hmm, andyman7 said:

 

"It is very clear that these specialist manufacturers can pick off certain areas that Hornby are unable or unwilling to serve"

 

which, in the case of the class 31, class 56 and MGR wagons, is not true as these are items that Hornby have been willing and able to serve.

 

If anything the reality is the precise reverse of what andyman7 said; namely that Hornby are willing and able to serve certain areas that the smaller manufacturers probably won't such as the wider model railway/toy train ecosystem, controllers, scenic items, track mats, starter train sets, systems for very young children etc etc.

Erm, the Accurascale Class 31 covers a whole range of variations that Hornby have not covered; the Cavalex Class 56 is supposed to do similar; etc. However, no one else is doing Railroad models and the high profile models such as HST, IEP, Pendolino, Flying Scotsman.

[Les1952]

4 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Erm, the Accurascale Class 31 covers a whole range of variations that Hornby have not covered; the Cavalex Class 56 is supposed to do similar; etc. However, no one else is doing Railroad models and the high profile models such as HST, IEP, Pendolino, Flying Scotsman.

 

.... yet .....

[Phil Parker]

4 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

.... yet .....

 

Since every new entrant to the market has gone down the high detail/high price route, I'm assuming you have some special insider knowledge about ANOTHER new company when you say this. Perhaps the group of RMwebbers who constantly bang on about prices have finally banded together to launch a budget range? 🤔 

[Andy Hayter]

On 11/04/2022 at 12:30, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - but interestingly talking to people in the trade (both retail and manufacturing) over many years one notable factor is that in time sof economic pron blems and reduced disposable income sales in the model railway area tend to increase.  Now obviously there. is the potential impact of everything going up in price at once - as is happening now - havinga duifferent effect, especially as some r-t-r prices (including Hornby in particular) are going steeply upwards.  But equally the way in which people react to having to tighten their spending has in the past worked to the advantage of the model railway area because what tends to go first is expenditure on expensive meals, or days, out replacing taht with more time at home and a need to c find or create something to do in that time.

 

The pandemic might well havea different impact although thus far it seems to have been to the benefit of hobby retail including model railways but a change will come this year as people resume going on holiday (although that also happened to an extent last year).  But overall the pandemic will/has introduced some new areas of impact on disposable income spending.  And don't forget we're still some way from 40% of average household income having to be spent on food (as was the case not too many decades back) and we're a very long way from morthgage rates standing at 15% which many of us suffered not all that long ago.

 

 

I understand the points you are making and hope that you are right and history repeats itself.

 

My fear is that this time it will be different.  If you take the meme of railway modellers that they tend toward the wrinkly end of the spectrum, then your observations of somewhat increased spending makes sense.

 

The pandemic will have had relatively minimal financial impact since a large portion of our group will have retired = no furlough.  With reduced opportunity to spend that discretionary money, purchases of more models is easily explained.  No holidays, no weekly meals out at a restaurant, no taking the grand kids out for a special day out, no visits to your favourite heritage line etc..

 

Going back to the financial crash, again as a group we were probably less impacted with mortgages paid off or nearing the end of their life.  Fewer of us will have lost jobs since we were retired already, or perhaps we were given early retirement with a handsome pay-out.

 

This time around as a group we cannot avoid increased fuel and energy costs.  If I have done my sums right, the average modeller will be paying about the equivalent of one new small locomotive per month to keep the gas and electricity going compared with 12 months ago. 

[I did mention taxes, so OK pensioners do not pay NI so will avoid that imposition.]

We cannot however avoid the increase in food prices due to increased transport costs, increased energy prices, increased costs of feed (due to the current war), increased costs for fertiliser - the list goes on and on.

 

I know there will be people out there that will say, that did not apply to me back then, but I think as a group, what I describe covers a significant majority.   

  

[Robin Brasher]

12 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Since every new entrant to the market has gone down the high detail/high price route, I'm assuming you have some special insider knowledge about ANOTHER new company when you say this. Perhaps the group of RMwebbers who constantly bang on about prices have finally banded together to launch a budget range? 🤔 

This may be true but Dapol products seem to be cheaper than Hornby products. An example is the GWR large Prairie. Hattons is selling the Hornby version for £153 and the Dapol version for £119.60.  I have not checked the prices of wagons but I expect the trend will be the same. As far as I know Dapol do not operate a tier system so any model shop can order any Dapol model and expect to receive it as soon as it is produced.

[CUCKOO LINE]

Then it is a bit like any goods unless the comparison is to exactly same quality, same spec then you always need to factor by what is important to you.

[boxbrownie]

Hornby will get their fingers burnt though just look at the normal discounted prices of the Class 31...around £190 with the occasional special around £150....and the new Accurascale 31 at £170 rrp.

Pretty sure which will be of better quality and better detailed with more features.

 

Now if AS did an HST set, even at the cost of Hornby's crazy price for the Loco and Trailer I'd snap one (or two) up tomorrow, but I ain't buying the Hornby rip off set for that cost.

[Pmorgancym]

13 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Since every new entrant to the market has gone down the high detail/high price route, I'm assuming you have some special insider knowledge about ANOTHER new company when you say this. Perhaps the group of RMwebbers who constantly bang on about prices have finally banded together to launch a budget range? 🤔 

Be interesting to see a designed from from ground up budget range, not simply just old tooling that's too crude to market at full cost (unless there's no obvious opposing model in someone else's range of course ;)).

Wonder what it would looklike?  

[Robin Brasher]

1 hour ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

Then it is a bit like any goods unless the comparison is to exactly same quality, same spec then you always need to factor by what is important to you.

2nd radius 00 gauge double curve: Hornby £4.35, Peco £3.60.

[JohnR]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

2nd radius 00 gauge double curve: Hornby £4.35, Peco £3.60.

 

Bachmann equivalent 36-607 £3.45.  This is using the old Hornby tooling (in Austria)

[KeithMacdonald]

I was wondering why Hornby had vacated their shop in the Swindon Designer Outlet. This thread might explain the reason why.

[woodenhead]

37 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I was wondering why Hornby had vacated their shop in the Swindon Designer Outlet. This thread might explain the reason why.

It was Tier 3

[GWR-fan]

The last couple of years supply shortages have been blamed on the pandemic,  however, shortages were noted prior January 2020.  In late 2017 Lyndon Davies took over the reins at Hornby as CEO.  One of his first statements was no more firesales.  At the time Hornby "over production" had seen new stock flying out the door at bargain basement prices.  I cringe now when I see pre-owned items for sale at twice the price one could purchase the same items as new stock back in those memorable days just a few years ago.  I kick myself now at all those missed opportunities to snatch a bargain.

[Les1952]

19 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Since every new entrant to the market has gone down the high detail/high price route, I'm assuming you have some special insider knowledge about ANOTHER new company when you say this. Perhaps the group of RMwebbers who constantly bang on about prices have finally banded together to launch a budget range? 🤔 

 

Oh dear another joke treated as a serious comment.........

 

 

[Phil Parker]

7 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

Oh dear another joke treated as a serious comment.........

 

 

 

If your comment really was meant to be a joke, don't give up your day job... 😆

[spamcan61]

9 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

The last couple of years supply shortages have been blamed on the pandemic,  however, shortages were noted prior January 2020. 

I can't be boverred to go and re-read the annual reports but supply shortages (and the occasional glut) seem to have been an almost permanent  state of affairs since the parting of the ways with Sanda Kan in 2008.

[Legend]

15 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Be interesting to see a designed from from ground up budget range, not simply just old tooling that's too crude to market at full cost (unless there's no obvious opposing model in someone else's range of course ;)).

Wonder what it would looklike?  

 Probably something like the Hornby 66.    In another marketing shambles  curiously not listed as Railroad but sold at a Railroad price , or would that be Railroad Plus , yet another unnecessary sub division . 

[CUCKOO LINE]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 Probably something like the Hornby 66.    In another marketing shambles  curiously not listed as Railroad but sold at a Railroad price , or would that be Railroad Plus , yet another unnecessary sub division . 

I thought railroad was originally  supposed to be the budget range with less detail and less features but nevertheless reasonably accurate.