Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[The Johnster]

It is not reasonable to expect everybody to model railways to the same standards of skill, detail, and operating realism, and I am not proposing myself as the pinnacle of virtue in any of those areas, or for that matter in any others.  Anyone looking at photos of my layout on this site will see that I am a long way from being in a position of such moral high ground!  A good show will feature layouts to a variety of standards, reflecting a variety of approaches to modelling and illustrating that there is s place in the hobby for participants of variety of abilities and approaches, and I have no wish to look down my particular 00 mostly-RTR/RTP nose at any of them.  I try to operate my layout to real time, at realistic speeds, and to the 1955 Rule Book as far as far as is practical, which suits me but I am only me, and others will have other priorities.  At a show, I am more than happy to make allowance for those who do not operate to my approval, just as I am happy to be inspired by those who do better than me. 

 

That said…

 

I’ve just been watching a YT vid of Scaleforum, and I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect higher standards from people who model to these sorts of specifications, which I freely admit are beyond anything that I can do.  The layouts looked superb and the trains ran superbly smoothly at realistic speeds; the upcoming moan is about realistic operating!  I’ll name names; Kitedale and Faringdon, both BLTs. 
 

Kitedale had a 3-coach train run in behind an LMS 2-6-4T, cut to the loco setting back on to the train after running around.  The illusion was shattered when it buffered up to the stock a bit heavily and unceremoniously continued moving, shoving them towards the buffers without stopping.  In reality, the loco would come to a stand as the coaches are coupled on, vacuum hoses connected, brakes blown off, and a brake continuity test performed bfore the train is set back towards the buffers and passengers are allowed to board.   
 

Faringdon, a completely convincing model in terms of appearance, was a little less remiss.  An 8750 ran in with a superb concertina brake composite, and for some reason came to a stand at the country end of the platform, making the passengers walk to the exit in the rain and highly inconvenient for any parcels or mail work.  Convenient for the operator ready for the run around procedure of course, but the correct procedure with the passengers under the canopy and then, when they’ve detrained and the doors they left open are shut by the guard or station staff, and the station work completed close to the office and the post office van, then the train sets back to clear the stock behind the loco release shunt for the run around movements.  
 

Then the loco stopped short of the home signal before setting back onto the coach, with no shunting signal apparent to allow this move; it should have gone  ‘out over’ the home before setting back.   At least it came to a stand when it reached the coach, but did not then set it back to the station building for the passengers to board and parcels/mail dispatch work to be done, unlike the Kitedale practice.  The train got the starter and set off from this position.  
 

I’ll happily apologise if in fact any of this was normal practice at Faringdon; the Kitedale move with a train of coaches on which the vacuum brakes are hard on is physically impossible in reality. 
 

None of the layouts in the vid got lamps right; no lamps at all, lamps on both ends of loco and rakes of stock, no side lamps on brake van, lamps on loco but no tail lamp, and of course diesel locos with twin tail lights blazing away while they are hauling trains.  At a ‘normal’ show one would let it pass, but…
 

…I genuinely consider that these are justified criticisms at a show with scale pretensions.  Serious students of railway operational methods who expect operating to be done correctly could be misinformed by such toy train practices.  Surely it is reasonable, given the number of heritage railways operating with vacuum braked loco-hauled stock that is run around at the termini which are easily observed in operation and can be operated on if you wish to volunteer, to expect that this sort of thing is got right at such exhibitions!

 

[Phil Parker]

20 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I’ve just been watching a YT vid of Scaleforum, and I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect higher standards from people who model to these sorts of specifications, which I freely admit are beyond anything that I can do.  The layouts looked superb and the trains ran superbly smoothly at realistic speeds; the upcoming moan is about realistic operating!

 

You've watched a tiny amount of operating on YouTube and from this have decided to condem the layouts featured. You know as well as I do, you are setting yourself up for a fall. Those layouts will have been operated for hours, by different people in the team, but you are condeming them on the basis of a few seconds.

 

However, I look forward to seeing what sanctions you propose for those who fail to meet your standards.

 

Just remember that there are human beings on the recieving end of your brickbats. Anyone commenting might like to consider how those people will feel reading this and moderate thier tone accordingly. 

[Ian Simpson]

TBH, I'm not too miffed by what other people do with their layouts, even at exhibitions. Perhaps especially at exhibitions, where stand-in operators like me are often running unfamiliar layouts in a rather heavy-handed way.

But I do see the irony of expert modellers spending hundreds of hours creating wonderfully realistic layouts only to operate them in a haphazard and unhistoric manner. I think there can sometimes be an unwillingness to spend enough time and effort trying to understand how the prototype worked, not just how it looked. 

My own modest attempt at realism is to try to run my shunting layout a bit like a computer simulation game - it takes two workers an hour-and-a-half to load/unload a box van, shunting vans too hard risks damaging fragile goods, a PO wagon left unloaded in a siding for too long generates complaints from the owner, etc.  (And yes, I find the 1955 Rule Book useful too.)

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Ian Simpson
The usual typos

[woodenhead]

There was an amazing O gauge layout today at Wigan - Newchapel Junction.

 

Interlocking, permissive working within the station, several signal boxes, junctions and stations plus amazing arrays of functioning semaphore signals, calling on devices etc.  It was a joy to behold, built by people whose day job had involved signalling / operation or engineering.

 

I chatted with the operators, watched the way it worked and was thrilled by the activity and the way they all worked together to operate it, it was real team work and communication between them all and the trains simply never stopped - usually three on the go at any time.

 

Did it matter that by their own admission there was a lack of Southern Engines for the Southern rakes or that the trains entered the station at a higher speed than they should - not a bit, if anything the pace of operation added to their skill in controlling so much activity, especially the main station signaller/operator who was also legging it around the front to couple and uncouple three links to allow the shunter to take over.

[tomparryharry]

 

It's a common 'trap that a lot of people fall into. That said, it's a lack of knowledge of operating, not modelling in any sense. Neither, is it a scale. I've seen N gauge layouts worked to the '55 book, and I've seen 12"-foot places where "Jeez!!" You and I are lucky; we've been both sides of the wire. Ask most operators at an exhibition "Where is the plunger release" will give you directions to the gents. Personally, I go to exhibitions to look at modelling standards & techniques, not how they are operated, even BLTs. Each BLT, model or real, will have its own set of rules in the appendices. 

 

You need a YouTube video for 'How to hook on', where the fireman jumps down, disconnect the bags; "Give 'er a squeeze, Louise! Hook off, back to the footplate" Righto, mate" and off to the headshunt, etc. You've done it, I've done it, but a lot of layout operators haven't.... We're a lucky few....

Edited October 3, 2022 by tomparryharry
late at night...

[Jeepy]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

There was an amazing O gauge layout today at Wigan - Newchapel Junction.

 

Interlocking, permissive working within the station, several signal boxes, junctions and stations plus amazing arrays of functioning semaphore signals, calling on devices etc.  It was a joy to behold, built by people whose day job had involved signalling / operation or engineering.

 

I chatted with the operators, watched the way it worked and was thrilled by the activity and the way they all worked together to operate it, it was real team work and communication between them all and the trains simply never stopped - usually three on the go at any time.

 

Did it matter that by their own admission there was a lack of Southern Engines for the Southern rakes or that the trains entered the station at a higher speed than they should - not a bit, if anything the pace of operation added to their skill in controlling so much activity, especially the main station signaller/operator who was also legging it around the front to couple and uncouple three links to allow the shunter to take over.

One of my all time favourite layouts! I've seen it in action 3 times over the last few years 👍. 

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

[Cwmtwrch]

I work in P4, but was not at Scaleforum. I haven't been for some years now, although I have operated layouts there and elsewhere in the past, and I agree that there is quite often poor operation, but no worse, and sometimes better, than any other show. The problem I see is that there are few people operating the layout, and even fewer in front of it, who have any idea of how a steam railway [before the preservation era] actually worked. I spent several years in my early teens trainspotting, and picked up some knowledge without even trying , and have read a lot since. However, even if they are old enough to remember steam operation, most people had no interest at the time or since.

 

On your specific points:

Stopping short on the platform would not be much of an issue if it wasn't raining, and going outside the home might be observed if authority was watching, but normal practice might be to clear the points and wait for a wave from the Bobby - easier and minimal safety issues - staff would tend to get into the habit of doing it the easiest way in both cases...

 

Kitedale's operators have no defence, I fear.

 

Lamps in 4mm are a PITA to deal with, especially in an exhibition, where the GBP commonly has an attention span measured in nanoseconds and expect something to be moving virtually all the time; even Scaleforum can suffer from that. You feel you have to run trains accordingly; don't forget Scaleforum is open to the general public.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Cwmtwrch
additional text

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I’ve just been watching a YT vid of Scaleforum,

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

None of the layouts in the vid got lamps right; no lamps at all, lamps on both ends of loco and rakes of stock, no side lamps on brake van, lamps on loco but no tail lamp, and of course diesel locos with twin tail lights blazing away while they are hauling trains.  At a ‘normal’ show one would let it pass, but…

 

I'm shocked, shocked, that grown men playing with toy trains scale models can be permitted to be so frivolous! There should be a law against it! Perhaps the producers of those videos need to add a health warning? Something like...

Warning! This video is not safe for Rivet Counters

 

And at the end of the offensive video...

If you have been emotionally affected by the contents of this video, please contact the Elucidated Brethren of the Counted Rivet

[John M]

I have an preference for realistic operation from observing the prototype late 1970s onwards and operating as a guard/shunter/diesel driver on a preserved narrow gauge line.

 

I found that the biggest challenge was recruiting and retaining operators who were prepared to accept the discipline of operating a layout/rail way in a prototypical manner both in a club and home layout context.

 

The club layout was end to end at the fine scale end of the spectrum, the main challenge was that the layout team were mainly model builders with little interest in running trains and operating the layout during a 2-3 day exhibition largely relied on recruiting and training (such as it was) members from outside the group to assist.

 

The home layout context using rtr equipment  was interesting after 1-2 hours protoypical operation, the operators just wanted to run their trains round and round at top speed!. I was tempted to  buy a couple of Scalextric Throttles!  Interestingly running freight trains point to point with multiple yards operators preferred simple shunts dropping off or picking up 1-2 cars to their train to its destination as quickly as possible.

 

As an operator on a heritage railway arriving trains always come to a stand at the Country end of our main terminal giving our passengers a longish walk to and from the train, our release crossover (sprung points) the station building was beyond our platform end. Terminal track layouts and signalling were designer by a LMR S&E engineer/manager for operation by a 2 person train crew with electro mechanical control of point and signal interlockings from push button panels at the platform ends rather than a signal box.

[Wheatley]

The problem is Johnster, that you and I and a select band of others know how it should be operated because we did it day in day out. I could still probably set up the arrangements for Pilotman working over a single line in my sleep 30 years later, because the block failed between Clayton West and Penistone so often we did it nearly every week. And those earlier periods before we started on the railway, well they weren't that different at a nuts and bolts level. But everyone else is reading it from a book or a magazine or a website - some written by people who know what they're talking about, others less so, (EDIT) and others  are just copying what they've seen other people do. 

 

Any perusal of back issues of MRJ or S4 News will show that people do try very hard to get it right, but the pressures and limitations of exhibitions are no respecters of finescale fidelity and they have the same issues of a limited pool of volunteer operators, limited (if any) rehearsal time and all the other reasons which combine to result in less than finescale operation on occasions. 

 

I have to say that on the one occasion I've been lucky enough to see Faringdon so far, it was operated faultlessly. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Wheatley

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

None of the layouts in the vid got lamps right; no lamps at all, lamps on both ends of loco and rakes of stock, no side lamps on brake van, lamps on loco but no tail lamp, 

 

 

So how would you change the lamps at the ends on each train at an exhibition?

Regardless of scale/gauge/pretentiousness?

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

None of the layouts in the vid got lamps right; no lamps at all, lamps on both ends of loco and rakes of stock, no side lamps on brake van, lamps on loco but no tail lamp, and of course diesel locos with twin tail lights blazing away while they are hauling trains.  At a ‘normal’ show one would let it pass, but…

The only way to change lamps around on a model loco or rolling stock is by hand. Of neccesity this would have to be done in full view on the scenic section of a terminus-to-fiddleyard layout.

Cue vociforous complaints from the Anti-hand-of-god Brigade.... 🙄🙄🙄

 

I too don't like to see shunting where a loco runs into rolling stock & just keeps going, or hits stock & reverses direction instantly after coupling up, but I don't let it ruin my exhibition experience.

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

, but I don't let it ruin my exhibition experience.

 

But the OP didn't have the "exhibition experience". He watched it for free on YT.

 

IMO, videos look far faster than seeing the models in the flesh (plastic/metal) anyway.

(I watch videos [*] that others have taken of my layout at shows and it looks far faster than I know we have been operating)

 

[*] As for exhibition experience of those videos - I can categorically say that "I was there")

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by newbryford

[F-UnitMad]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

videos look far faster than seeing the models in the flesh (plastic/metal) anyway.

(I watch videos that others have taken of my layout at shows and it looks far faster than I know we have been operating)

Interesting as I sometimes watch videos of shunting on layouts and get bored by how slow & tedious it looks - but I know I would be happy watching exactly the same in person at a Show.

Possibly it's down to being able to see the whole layout at a show, and seeing the purpose & context of the moves, whereas on video the view is often restricted or cropped to the train itself, and so it's less easy to 'follow the story', so to speak.

[newbryford]

11 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Interesting as I sometimes watch videos of shunting on layouts and get bored by how slow & tedious it looks - but I know I would be happy watching exactly the same in person at a Show.

 

 

I agree that some model shunting is slow.

From what I remember of it watching some of the last regular steam operations in the UK, the daily trip that shunted the goods yard opposite my house didn't hang around.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by newbryford

[Paul H Vigor]

20 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Interesting as I sometimes watch videos of shunting on layouts and get bored by how slow & tedious it looks - but I know I would be happy watching exactly the same in person at a Show.

Possibly it's down to being able to see the whole layout at a show, and seeing the purpose & context of the moves, whereas on video the view is often restricted or cropped to the train itself, and so it's less easy to 'follow the story', so to speak.

I suspect that real steam shunting movements occurred at higher speeds than those depicted on model railways? Ultra slow running has become a badge of honour for many layout operators.

[Halvarras]

37 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

The only way to change lamps around on a model loco or rolling stock is by hand. Of neccesity this would have to be done in full view on the scenic section of a terminus-to-fiddleyard layout.

 

Changing headcodes - both disc and alpha-numeric - on diesel-operated layouts set in the years up to the end of 1975 would be even more impractical*. Unless operation were arranged in a very regimented fashion ensuring locos work in and out on specific trains, not impossible but a bit boring for hours on end. There are no practical solutions to issues like these, they'll just have to be lived with (until model headcode displays become electronic anyway 😉)

 

* Except Scotland where setting all displays to e.g. '. . . 1' or '8 . . .' would get around the problem - I really don't know why the ScR bothered fitting all those  Class 29s with headcode boxes which rarely got used!

[DCB]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It is not reasonable to expect everybody to model railways to the same standards of skill, detail, and operating realism, and I am not proposing myself as the pinnacle of virtue in any of those areas, or for that matter in any others.  Anyone looking at photos of my layout on this site will see that I am a long way from being in a position of such moral high ground!  A good show will feature layouts to a variety of standards, reflecting a variety of approaches to modelling and illustrating that there is s place in the hobby for participants of variety of abilities and approaches, and I have no wish to look down my particular 00 mostly-RTR/RTP nose at any of them.  I try to operate my layout to real time, at realistic speeds, and to the 1955 Rule Book as far as far as is practical, which suits me but I am only me, and others will have other priorities.  At a show, I am more than happy to make allowance for those who do not operate to my approval, just as I am happy to be inspired by those who do better than me. 

 

That said…

 

I’ve just been watching a YT vid of Scaleforum, and I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect higher standards from people who model to these sorts of specifications, which I freely admit are beyond anything that I can do.  The layouts looked superb and the trains ran superbly smoothly at realistic speeds; the upcoming moan is about realistic operating!  I’ll name names; Kitedale and Faringdon, both BLTs. 
 

Kitedale had a 3-coach train run in behind an LMS 2-6-4T, cut to the loco setting back on to the train after running around.  The illusion was shattered when it buffered up to the stock a bit heavily and unceremoniously continued moving, shoving them towards the buffers without stopping.  In reality, the loco would come to a stand as the coaches are coupled on, vacuum hoses connected, brakes blown off, and a brake continuity test performed bfore the train is set back towards the buffers and passengers are allowed to board.   
 

Faringdon, a completely convincing model in terms of appearance, was a little less remiss.  An 8750 ran in with a superb concertina brake composite, and for some reason came to a stand at the country end of the platform, making the passengers walk to the exit in the rain and highly inconvenient for any parcels or mail work.  Convenient for the operator ready for the run around procedure of course, but the correct procedure with the passengers under the canopy and then, when they’ve detrained and the doors they left open are shut by the guard or station staff, and the station work completed close to the office and the post office van, then the train sets back to clear the stock behind the loco release shunt for the run around movements.  
 

Then the loco stopped short of the home signal before setting back onto the coach, with no shunting signal apparent to allow this move; it should have gone  ‘out over’ the home before setting back.   At least it came to a stand when it reached the coach, but did not then set it back to the station building for the passengers to board and parcels/mail dispatch work to be done, unlike the Kitedale practice.  The train got the starter and set off from this position.  
 

I’ll happily apologise if in fact any of this was normal practice at Faringdon; the Kitedale move with a train of coaches on which the vacuum brakes are hard on is physically impossible in reality. 
 

None of the layouts in the vid got lamps right; no lamps at all, lamps on both ends of loco and rakes of stock, no side lamps on brake van, lamps on loco but no tail lamp, and of course diesel locos with twin tail lights blazing away while they are hauling trains.  At a ‘normal’ show one would let it pass, but…
 

…I genuinely consider that these are justified criticisms at a show with scale pretensions.  Serious students of railway operational methods who expect operating to be done correctly could be misinformed by such toy train practices.  Surely it is reasonable, given the number of heritage railways operating with vacuum braked loco-hauled stock that is run around at the termini which are easily observed in operation and can be operated on if you wish to volunteer, to expect that this sort of thing is got right at such exhibitions!

 

 

Absolutely agree.  There is no reason to adopt such sloppy modelling especially when cameras are around.  Our BLT Haddenhoe, was based on Faringdon and I always bring the passenger almost to the buffers before pushing back and running round.  That's just me, not for the benefit of anyone watching.   Haddenhoe/Faringdon doesn't  /didn't have room beyond the points for a 2-6-0 to run round so the stock doesn't have to be pushed back very far.

The stock rolling away when coupling up is a gap in RTR, an inexplicable gap for DCC where coach brakes should be surely be standard on Brake coaches and brake vans?  The Full size railway pre nationalisation passengers complained when trains were stopped too far from the buffers,  The State railways turned a blind ear and made great big useless concourses to deliberately lengthen passengers walk, and I won't even mention Scarborough.

Non Scale speeds also wind me up.  At one exhibition one large 1970s WR layout operated by old duffers had Warships on passengers doing a scale 40, yes I timed them. Looked ridiculous might have been OK had it been Dawlish Sea wall but it was Burks and Hants.  Then a teenager started operating and it came alive with trains doing a realistic 75 or so.  

Model Railways are 4 D  length, width, height, Time.     Oh and the train slowly creeping out of the FY and accelerating towards the station.  instead of bursting out of a tunnel and slowing down.   And fine scale locos with out of round wheels and out of round gears which rhythmically shuttle the tender back and forth on its draw bar.     I thought I had found a way to avoid exhibitions bit t'internet's full of videos of wobbly trains operated by people who are doing the public a huge favour by running their trains...

[Wheatley]

8 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

I suspect that real steam shunting movements occurred at higher speeds than those depicted on model railways? Ultra slow running has become a badge of honour for many layout operators.

Real steam shunting was carried out briskly because it (generally) involved giving the rake a hefty shove and letting momentum do the rest, not placing wagons individually using the loco. If you crack how to do that on a model you're on to something. Movements  where the loco stay attached (which is what we all end up doing by default because we haven't cracked scale loose shunting yet) should be under the  direct control of the  shunter (or person acting as  shunter, e.g. guard), quite often by preceding the movement on foot, which means effectively walking pace. That's  quite hard to judge on a model.

 

I suspect the Hand of God is less of an issue on a  finescale* layout as the choice is usually 3 links or AJs, but as F-Unit says, the only way to swap lamps on the model is by using tweezers. 

 

(*  Define that however you like). 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Wheatley

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Real steam shunting was carried out briskly because it (generally) involved giving the rake a hefty shove and letting momentum do the rest

 

Also becasue the crew wanted to get the job done, not show off how sloooooowly their locomotive could move. 😉

[APOLLO]

If all the layouts ran no trains all day at the Wigan Exhibition on Saturday it would have been most realistic !!!!!

 

Brit15

[AyJay]

I’m all in favour of doing things right. But…..

When at an exhibition, I find that the oh-so-slow shunting exhibits where everyone leans in to peer intensely as the loco couples up, bores me to tears and having lost the Will to live in about 60 seconds, I move on in search for something with a little more excitement.

You will usually find me hanging around the O gauge live steam exhibits, as they rattle around at breakneck speed, showering me in hot oil fumes. That or the clockwork tinplate exhibits 😎

[AyJay]

P.s. At this year’s Warley, can I expect to see any “There are no trains running today due to industrial action” layouts? Perhaps we will see a proliferation of figures holding “Official Pickett” signs.

[PMP]

9 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

So how would you change the lamps at the ends on each train at an exhibition?

Regardless of scale/gauge/pretentiousness?

 

 

It’s something I’m interested in hearing about, especially across a 4ft depth baseboard.

Farringdon (operated from the rear) would need probably another 2-3ft in exhibition layout ‘footprint’ at the side and front to allow the operator to walk round the front of the layout, in front of all the punters to change the lamps. Can’t see that being popular with exhibition managers, or viewers. Bath Green Park might be a challenge too.

 

S4um and other society shows aren’t stereotype typical exhibition’s, even though open to the paying public. They primarily allow members to meet/see and discuss aspects of the hobby centered around the society aims. I’ve seen Farringdon a number of times, (including last week), and poor operating or running hasn’t been a factor in my observation.

[woodenhead]

The problem really is how someone wants to run a railway and how people want to watch a railway being run can be poles apart.

 

For the operator, doing it properly will eat up time and enrich his/her experience, however, from the viewing perspective you've got someone doing something a lot slower than the viewer would like - they have 20 other layouts to see and would like to see reasonable movement on the model they are viewing before moving to the next one.

 

Exhibitors just have to find the happy medium of generally realistic operation with what the viewers will tolerate so that the layout gets more invites to shows.