Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[Barry O]

I am a bit bemused about this thread.. would you believe that Mike Edge has had a Gravity Yard operating in OO with normal ordinary wagons (no flywheels/motors or dcc required) for  many years.. and yes, you can "fly shunt" elsewhere on the layout (no perfectly horizontal sidings on this layout). The Wagons are checked to make sure they run freely, the brake vans are checked to make sure they do have a bit of a "brake"  and it all worked well apart from when some "know it al" stuck his hand out to stop the wagons from "running away".

 

Before that Mike Cook used to undertake rope shunting on his Ashburton terminus model.

 

 

So things which can't be done .. can.. and lamps and headboards are changed on trains on Grantham...

 

BUT has anyone ever spent time passing on "operational" knowledge to others?  I doubt it... but are people likely to read how to oeprate the layout.. nope!

 

Baz

[Nearholmer]

48 minutes ago, Barry O said:

BUT has anyone ever spent time passing on "operational" knowledge to others?  I doubt it... but are people likely to read how to oeprate the layout.. nope!

That has to be the key. As has been pointed out there are one or two books on the subject, but they are a drop in the ocean of books about the physical appearance of railways, likewise magazine articles, and tacit knowledge of the subject is fast disappearing.

 

A really useful thing for someone who does understand all this stuff deeply to do would be to produce a book, or series of magazine articles bringing together all that knowledge, illustrating it with photos, diagrams, and maybe rule book or general appendix extracts, and passing it on to others. I’m thinking MRJ or Wild Swan quality of material.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Enterprisingwestern]

14 hours ago, whart57 said:

We are in the realm of why elephants can't jump but fleas can jump skyscrapers.

 

A bee can fly but a fly can't bee.

 

Mike.

[whart57]

11 hours ago, AndyID said:

It does. Less mass means less weight and that means less friction in the bearings. But that does not change the fact that the reason wagons of any scale slow down is because their kinetic energy is being converted into thermal energy due to friction.

 

Unfortunately small model wagons do not have a lot of kinetic energy and they do produce a lot of thermal energy (friction) relative to their mass so they lose their kinetic energy quite quickly. It's not about absolutes such as mass. It's about the conservation of energy.

 

All very true but completely missing the point.

 

The point is that when scaling up and down factors like length (model size but also velocity) scale very differently than factors related to area (friction) and volume (mass). In 00 scale the length scaling is 1:76.4, but area is 1: 5837 (ignoring decimals) and volume is 1:446,000 (rounding up a little).

 

What we are interested in, in the context of how rolling stock behaves when rolling but unpowered, is deceleration. How quickly does the vehicle slow down and stop. Newton's Second Law gets us to a relationship where deceleration (negative acceleration) is determined by the force applied to cause that deceleration divided by the mass of the object.

 

Deceleration is a linear measurement, so in terms of metres per second per second we expect to see it as 0.013 of the original. Actually we don't because acceleration and velocity have a time element which we adjust a bit in our minds, but the deceleration we expect is of that order. However the mass of our model wagon is nearly 6000 times too little with the result that the same force scaled down linearly would stop the model wagon instantly.

 

Of course we don't scale friction down linearly. One factor in friction is the wheel bearing. If we accurately modelled a prototype greased axle box we would scale friction in the bearings down by 1:5000 or so, but that would still make our deceleration 80 times too strong. Push an old Triang wagon with the simple hole bearings and see how far it rolls to see what I mean. However we improve our bearing by doing something the prototype can't do, namely put all the weight onto a much smaller diameter of axle. Pinpoint bearings don't run on the pinpoints, they are 90 degrees out of whack to do that, but run on the diameter of axle just behind the pinpoint. That improves things a lot, almost to where we have scaled down friction as much as we need to to bring it into line with the mass in order to get the slow deceleration we want.

 

However the wheel bearings aren't the only source of friction. The wheel flanges are too. On the prototype the flanges rarely touch the rails, when they do we hear it loud and clear. Real rolling stock stays in gauge because of the coning of the wheels. Because mass doesn't scale down as linear dimensions do, our model wagons don't have enough weight to use the coning, and the coning alone, to keep wheelsets inside the rails. Our wheel flanges are almost constantly touching the rails. That wouldn't be a big problem but for the old maths teachers riddle - what part of a train is always going backwards? The answer is the wheel flanges, or more specifically that part of the wheel flange that is below the surface if the rail. Momentarily that part of the wheel is moving in the opposite direction to the rest of the vehicle, which means the friction it causes is much higher.

 

So to summarise. None of Newton's Laws are broken, nor are the laws of thermodynamics and energy preservation, but the simple fact that the key components of velocity, friction and mass do not scale equally when enlarging or miniaturising objects means that it is impossible to model motion accurately on a model railway.

[The White Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

That has to be the key. As has been pointed out there are one or two books on the subject, but they are a drop in the ocean of books about the physical appearance of railways, likewise magazine articles, and tacit knowledge of the subject is fast disappearing.

 

A really useful thing for someone who does understand all this stuff deeply to do would be to produce a book, or series of magazine articles bringing together all that knowledge, illustrating it with photos, diagrams, and maybe rule book or general appendix extracts, and passing it on to others. I’m thinking MRJ or Wild Swan quality of material.

 

There's https://www.amazon.co.uk/Model-Railway-Operation-Accordance-Prototype/dp/1852604212 and https://www.amazon.co.uk/Authentic-Model-Railway-Operation-Martin/dp/1912038005 

 

I don't own either, so I don't know how good the contents are but remember seeing the Wild Swan copy advertised when it was released. 

[Tim V]

Reading this thread has reminded me of why I stopped exhibiting my layout Clutton (P4 roundy).

 

This layout featured correct operation of a single line using replica token instruments. It also featured loose shunting of goods wagons – using DCC controlled wagons. Lamps were also displayed. Correct train formations. It was lost on most of the visitors.

 

Luckily some people saw the layout for what it was, and enjoyed it. At the York show in 2006, a chap asked why train out was not preceded by call attention – because that was how the WR did it. Turned out he was a signalman on the big railway, and so were the two people next to him.

 

For the rest the criticism it received made me seriously consider giving up. It just wasn’t worth dragging this fairly large layout to shows where the best that came was ‘stood there for 30 seconds and nothing moved’.

 

I was basically wasting my time.

 

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment.

[Bernard Lamb]

I remember in the early days of P4 watching a very well known small layout at the White Hill venue in Chesham.

The layout was very good in both appearance and running.

However the floor of the hall had loose floor boards and as people walked about a wagon, preumably with some form of suspension, would gently rock backwards and forwards. The illusion ws destroyed in an instant.

 

I also once witnessed two operators on another very well known layout resorting to actually shouting and swearing at each other from opposite ends of the layout when a move went pear shaped. 

 

The second example is not acceptable to me. 

Bernard

[The Johnster]

And remember that loose shunted wagons were often not completely left to their own devices, but controlled by a shunter with the handbrake lever using a brake stick (and hopefully not a shunting pole) or even just his own strength.  Can’t imagine how this would be reproduced on a small scale model. 
 

Shunting passenger stock, including NPCCS, is different; the vacuum brake is applied fully once the hoses are parted at any point, and while the handbrake in the guard’s compartment is applied as a second line of defence when the loco is uncoupled because the vacuum brakes will leak off over time, in most cases that’s it as far as running around movements are concerned.  Had the Kitedale move been attempted in reality, the loco would have moved the stock a short distance, a few yards, with the train wheels locked and sliding, and come to a fairly rapid halt as it failed to push against the fully applied brakes. 
 

The vacuum brakes can be isolated (you pull a cord at the position marked by a small white star on the solebar, which allows air into both sides of the piston in the brake cylinder, which then drops under it’s own weight, releasing the brakes) and this is done for yard shunting or moves within station limits, but loose shunting of passenger or NPCCS vehicles is not allowed, and this is a rule that is kept to.  
 

Gravity shunting such as the practice at Wellington (Salop) is authorised at specific locations by instructions relating to that location in the relevant Sectional Appendix (to the rule book).  The move was controlled by guard or shunter using the van handbrake once the vacuum brakes had been isolated, and took place over a short distance at a low speed.  Slip coaches had vacuum reservoirs in cylindrical tanks mounted crossways beneath the coach so that the slip guard could blow the brake off if he looked like stopping short, but once he’d used this reserve the next brake application brings the coach to a stop wherever it is, and slip destinations usually had a pilot on hand to rescue slips that had stopped short; drivers were openly and vocerferously contemptuous of guards’ ability to control trains on their own!
 

 

[newbryford]

13 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Model railways, correctly operated, are often the only opportunity to learn and practice the finer points of historic railway operation. Alas, the demographic clock is ticking - those who know won't be with us forever. Leave it too late and future generations of modellers will just have to guess!

 

Nah - just watch layouts on Youtube and you'll find out all you need to know............

Ironic dots after my post.

 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Yet you question the incorrect use/lack of lamps on locos....

 

I'm sure there are others reading this thread that are waiting for your solution..

 

 

I use steel staples to make the lamp irons and embed a micromagnet in each lamp. Apart from that, all I need is a pair of tweezers and a steady hand.

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

I use steel staples to make the lamp irons and embed a micromagnet in each lamp. Apart from that, all I need is a pair of tweezers and a steady hand.

 

Thanks for the explanation. It seems that the OP may have missed my question.

Edited October 4, 2022 by newbryford
typo

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Barry O said:

BUT has anyone ever spent time passing on "operational" knowledge to others?

Bob Essery and Frank Dyer, to name but two.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A really useful thing for someone who does understand all this stuff deeply to do would be to produce a book, or series of magazine articles bringing together all that knowledge, illustrating it with photos, diagrams, and maybe rule book or general appendix extracts, and passing it on to others. I’m thinking MRJ or Wild Swan quality of material.

See above!

Edited October 4, 2022 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

26 minutes ago, Tim V said:

Reading this thread has reminded me of why I stopped exhibiting my layout Clutton (P4 roundy).

 

This layout featured correct operation of a single line using replica token instruments. It also featured loose shunting of goods wagons – using DCC controlled wagons. Lamps were also displayed. Correct train formations. It was lost on most of the visitors.

 

Luckily some people saw the layout for what it was, and enjoyed it. At the York show in 2006, a chap asked why train out was not preceded by call attention – because that was how the WR did it. Turned out he was a signalman on the big railway, and so were the two people next to him.

 

For the rest the criticism it received made me seriously consider giving up. It just wasn’t worth dragging this fairly large layout to shows where the best that came was ‘stood there for 30 seconds and nothing moved’.

 

I was basically wasting my time.

 

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment.

I'm very glad I saw Clutton at Railwells 2018 Tim. Inspirational.

 

Perhaps we should try to do what Lord Reith intended for the BBC - inform, educate and entertain (or, as Meat Loaf sang, two out of three ain't bad!).

[fulton]

15 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Knowing the creator I would be surprised if he showed disregard for evidence.

 

One minute of searching provides proof for the defence.

 

 

 

What are these passengers doing and where are the locos and stock? The smoking gun is the open door in Exhibit B.

 

Does the prosecution have any further arguments?

 

I think this is one of the joys of modelling a prototype, information keeps coming to light, I found a photo recently of a station I first exhibited in 1991, now in a new home, which showed I had guessed incorrectly on a roof detail, still gave pleasure to find it. Some features look improbable, or incorrect on a freelance layout but often existed on the prototype, knowable feedback is always interesting, one of my layouts features a Liberty ship, City of Ely, a visitor had served on that ship and pointed out his cabin porthole, also that the funnel was the incorrect colour, now repainted.

[The Johnster]

56 minutes ago, Tim V said:

Reading this thread has reminded me of why I stopped exhibiting my layout Clutton (P4 roundy).

 

This layout featured correct operation of a single line using replica token instruments. It also featured loose shunting of goods wagons – using DCC controlled wagons. Lamps were also displayed. Correct train formations. It was lost on most of the visitors.

 

Luckily some people saw the layout for what it was, and enjoyed it. At the York show in 2006, a chap asked why train out was not preceded by call attention – because that was how the WR did it. Turned out he was a signalman on the big railway, and so were the two people next to him.

 

For the rest the criticism it received made me seriously consider giving up. It just wasn’t worth dragging this fairly large layout to shows where the best that came was ‘stood there for 30 seconds and nothing moved’.

 

I was basically wasting my time.

 

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment.

The entertainment aspect, at least as far as it applies to non-railway/minded punters who want to see something moving all the time is, I contend, less of a factor at a ‘scale’ show.  It provokes adverse comment from such punters at ‘normal’ shows, and when you explain the prototype practice that is the reason for the ‘delay’, you are dismissed as an obsessional anorak.  
 

I have devised a WTT for my BLT, single track but set in South Wales, specifically the Tondu area, period 1948-58.  Tondu was a hub from which several mostly single track branches radiated, all of which had between 8 and 13 passenger services each day as well as pickups, trips, and the all important, and frequent, colliery empties and clearances, each branch serving a dozen or so collieries; bucolic it was not; it was full-on, no spare paths, worked to capacity, and pretty intense stuff, and entirely normal for South Wales in those days!
 

My imaginary additional branch’s traffic has to fit in with the real ones further towards Tondu, and there are periods when nothing much is happening at the terminus.  I work to real time and have a battery ‘Cwmdimbath Clock’ which can be switched off for ‘time out’ or advanced to condense periods of inactivity, but the rule is that no movements take place during time out; that would be cheating.  The challenge is to run to time at realistic speeds observing the rules, completing shunting movements on running lines in time for the signalman to accept the next train without delaying it, and I find this very satisfying; I’ve been doing it for about 5 years on a nearly daily basis in sessions of about 2 hours a time and I’m not bored yet!  It usually takes  a week or so to work through the WTT; first train is at 05.50 Cwmdimbath Time and last departs 23.55. 

 

Time out ‘stop the clock’ is used to remove locos by hand for lamp repositioning, a foul and despicable cheat that I am content with.  I use Modelu lamps which fit over the brackets, but they are not really designed for this amount of handling and I go through a good few!

 

There is actually very little time that can be condensed, as if nothing is going on on the BR side, there is colliery shunting to do, and at some periods the Cwmdimbath Clock is reset back half an hour or so for a sort of ‘meanwhile, back at the ranch’ operation while the colliery work that took place at the same time as BR moves at the other end of the layout is caught up with.  
 

I am happy with this compromise at home, but it wouldn’t do at a public show; the layout would need a separate operator for the colliery, and he’d have to accept trains of empties and dispatch trains of loadeds in accordance wit the WTT, which would mean he’d have to be trained up. 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Tim V said:

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment.

Maybe it depends upon the exhibition, and the nature of the audience.

 

I never saw Clutton, which is a pity, because it sounds as if I would have really enjoyed it.

[Paul H Vigor]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

Nah - just watch layouts on Youtube and you'll find out all you need to know............

Ironic dots after my post.

 

Better to watch layouts on Youtube than go to shows? Shame, I rather enjoyed going to exhibitions - before Covid threw a spanner in the works. I guess square eyes may be better than an empty wallet?

[Phil Bullock]

53 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

Perhaps we should try to do what Lord Reith intended for the BBC - inform, educate and entertain (or, as Meat Loaf sang, two out of three ain't bad!).

But perhaps in a different priority order - Entertain, inform, educate perhaps? 

[TheQ]

OH NO we'll have some know nothing " Celebrity " shouting a lot... 

[C126]

I see the recommended Bob Essery title is sub-titled "modelling the steam era".  Can anyone recommend a good source for operating a post-1970 B.R. layout, please, covering goods?

[AY Mod]

11 minutes ago, TheQ said:

OH NO we'll have some know nothing " Celebrity " shouting a lot... 

 

I caught up with the last part of Hobby Man last night with Alex Brooker and Andi Oliver playing trains, looking at model railways and really getting what it means to people. No shouting; just a bit of fun, no derision and genuine pleasure.

 

Available on catch up and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/hobby-man/on-demand/73157-004

[Tim V]

52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Maybe it depends upon the exhibition, and the nature of the audience.

 

I never saw Clutton, which is a pity, because it sounds as if I would have really enjoyed it.

Quite a bit on YouTube, some of mine but also from others.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Tim V said:

Exhibitions are for entertainment, the best place to see layouts operated correctly is in the layout’s home environment

 

I always enjoyed Clutton.  I don't find poor operation at all entertaining.  Unacceptable in fact, but no need to cause fits of the vapours by uttering that dreadful word, I just walk away and find a layout where things are done more convincingly.

 

There was a thread on here once which asked "how long do you watch a layout at an exhibition".  Someone (I think it was @'CHARD) gave the response "as long as I can suspend disbelief".  For me poor operation pops the bubble of disbelief and it's pretty hard to enjoy watching thereafter.

 

Actually, quite a lot of exhibition running is so bad that it would take very little change to make a marked improvement.  I'm not talking about difficult stuff like loose shunting or changing the headlamps, or the minutiae of the sectionakappendix for an obscure route.  Just the basics like sensible acceleration and braking, not driving through stationary vehicles, waiting a moment when coupling up - simple things, easily achieved but too often missed.

[PhilH]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That has to be the key. As has been pointed out there are one or two books on the subject, but they are a drop in the ocean of books about the physical appearance of railways, likewise magazine articles, and tacit knowledge of the subject is fast disappearing.

 

A really useful thing for someone who does understand all this stuff deeply to do would be to produce a book, or series of magazine articles bringing together all that knowledge, illustrating it with photos, diagrams, and maybe rule book or general appendix extracts, and passing it on to others. I’m thinking MRJ or Wild Swan quality of material.

 

 

Book law ‘District Controllers View’ series could be the answer. Diagrams, timetable, loco allocations and restrictions, carriage diagrams, just the job. These are my two.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by PhilH

[Nearholmer]

They are exceptionally good, I’ve got the one covering East Sussex, but while they tell you an enormous amount, they don’t tell you about ‘close up’ operation.

 

One analogy for all this is to think of things in terms of hardware and software. A physical model can at best represent the hardware of a traditional railway, but it’s operation was governed by vast amounts of software, conveyed in the form of paperwork (laws, published requirements and guidance, WTT, Rules, Appendices, STN, ‘Stencils’, ad-hoc notices, instructions and goodness knows what else), plus some totally invisible software that was conveyed into the minds of staff by training, learning at grandfather’s knee etc. Put the hardware, the software, and the staff together, and lubricate with vast gallonages of tea, and you have a traditional railway.