Hornby announce TT:120

[Dunsignalling]

44 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I feel that you missed the point of my riposte to newbryfords post...

 

If you feel SO negative about the Hornby TT:120 initiative, why don't you stop haunting the thread?  After all, you have made your views explicitly clear, and if things go belly-up in a couple of years, then you'll have the satisfaction of returning to say "I told you so!".

 

At present, you just sound like a one-note tune.

 

Quite right, I'm wasting far too much time on this White Elephant. Topic Ignored..

[Legend]

17 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Heljan had 2-3 locos, all in cad stage and most covered by Hornby already. Meanwhile Hornby have 23 confirmed locos coming (with a fair amount in early prototyping).
There's many things I could knock Hornby for, but if we're being objective here... Hornby have significantly increased the probability of TT:120 being a success... moreso than Heljan can claim.

 

Yes, but to make TT:120 a success for all of us, we really need to attract other manufacturers. I know Peco is making track/buildings but someone else making locomotives would have been useful. I'm still generally keen on the TT:120 concept but I'm a little wary of Hornby's predatory tactics.  This is not a company that's covered itself in glory recently, Allocations, Tier Systems, generally hacking off retailers and end customers, rushed out terriers, generic coaches ,Titgate etc etc .  Is this a company I want to be dependent on because no one else enters the market?  That is my major reservation.

 

How many of these 23 are actual?  I've no doubt the intent is there, but I think so far I've seen A3,A4,08,HST and 66

[Hobby]

5 minutes ago, dagrizz said:

So I can't see the TT range in my local model shop. And I can't see the range at the few large shows where Hornby have a stand because I have to join a club first. How am I supposed to see it at my own leisure? Online does not count - I buy things I can see in the flesh first. I can't help thinking that Hornby are shrinking their potential customer base with these marketing tactics.

Graham 

 

There's a few of you, granted, but many of us have to buy stuff unseen. I've been modelling east European narrow gauge for years and have bought lots of things sight unseen and not been disappointed... There's also the point than most model shops don't stock every single item of stock!

 

In your case you'll just have to wait until a few of us get our layouts up and running and then you'll see them and you can decide then...

[jjb1970]

To be clear, Hornby have every right to market their TT:120 venture however they want to. I am not a marketing person and do not claim any expertise in marketing. All I can offer is my own feeling, and that is that if Hornby are launching an entirely new product line which is only available on-line (meaning we cannot go to see it in a shop) then I'd like the opportunity to see it at a show if I was attending one which Hornby were supporting. Being asked to join a club to be allowed to see it is a turn off for me, I don't join super market or petrol loyalty card programs and have never really been that interested in collector clubs (though I was briefly in the Hornby club when the club exclusive was an air smoothed BoB/WC I wanted one year). Would I join a free club just to be allowed to view something they are trying to sell me? I honestly don't know. If it was something I had already decided to buy then I suspect yes, if I was an undecided floating potential customer then maybe not. And with a product range like this they need to be catching more than the already decided, they need to be catching everything who might make the jump.

I don't want to sound negative as I find this the most exciting product launch I can remember and applaud Hornby for it, I just find this particular way of marketing slightly odd.

[Hobby]

1 minute ago, Legend said:

Yes, but to make TT:120 a success for all of us, we really need to attract other manufacturers. I know Peco is making track/buildings but someone else making locomotives would have been useful. I'm still generally keen on the TT:120 concept but I'm a little wary of Hornby's predatory tactics. 

 

They've been planning it for 5 years so, as proved, so they are much further down the line than other manufacturers. They have also decided to go in with a full range, unlike Heljan and others, thus enabling them to sell to newcomers as well as existing modellers. With a totally new scale I'd suggest that isn't "predatory" but a sensible way to launch a new scale. I've no doubt that in due course other manufacturers will get involved when it gets established. 

[Hobby]

4 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Being asked to join a club to be allowed to see it is a turn off for me, I don't join super market or petrol loyalty card programs and have never really been that interested in collector clubs

 

Nor me, I leave that to the Missus! But in this case I see no reason not to join as it's free and it gives me a 15% discount for the first year on stuff I will be buying, bit of a no brainer really! At the end of the year I'll see what offers are around.

[JohnR]

I really cant see the problem in signing up to a FREE club in order to access and see the TT items. It doesn't commit you to buying anything. It doesn't cost anything.  At worst, you will be getting some further marketing information about the TT range. To which you will be able to unsubscribe at any time. 

 

So whats the problem? 

[Legend]

12 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

And if even that fails, given that a British market (however small) has been established already, it'll give Continental producers like MTB or Piko extra impetus to produce at least those British types that run on Continental rails - with the Continental markets being the main target, and a short one-off batch of a British livery being pure gravy. So those types, at least, I'm fairly confident will appear now at some point in 1:120, even if on the whole British 1:120 fails to take a significant (10%) share of the market in the UK.

 

Interesting. Do Piko do TT:120 ?   I've always thought this was a manufacturer that produces reasonable detail at a good price

[Hroth]

Regarding entry into the TT:120 lounge, it sounds a pretty reasonable way to restrict entry to an area of limited floorspace.  Many of those with an interest in the scale will have signed up for the Club and entry to the lounge up to three weeks ago, and many visitors to the show, intrigued by the hoopla, will have put their names down for a peek at the new scale without getting their knickers in a twist over possible "spam" emails* from Hornby.

 

* Its what the filter mechanism in your preferred email app is for...

 

[Legend]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

10% of the market is what it's taken N gauge over half a century to attaiin so don't hold your breath.

 

But Hornby is the trainset name. If they do market it widely it could get acceptance. I'm thinking they need TV adverts, mainstream newspapers. Whereas "N" by Graham Farish just wouldn't have had that penetration in the 70s/80s.

 

In that repect not having visibility in model shops is a disadvantage, so they need to do something to counter that. 

 

The sets missing Christmas must be a big set back.

[Legend]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I have to say, limiting entry into a TT:120 room to people joining a club is not a marketing decision I'd make, but then again I won't work in marketing. I can see a logic when they're offering free club membership which does come with some good benefits but at the same time I am sick of ending up on junk mailing lists and such like. It seems to be increasingly normal to be asked to sign up to access benefits, followed by unsubscribing after getting that benefit for something and seeing no further point in remaining on their list. For me it would be much more logical to encourage people to go in the TT room and then say 'hey, why don't you join our club now, it's free!!', but that's just me.

 

 I do wonder about this. I wouldn't have though making folk sign up for the club to gain entry was the greatest of moves. I don't like the coercion factor.

 

I signed up when announced. Still haven't got the pack though- so looking forward to my lanyard!  But I am a very cynical person by nature, so I have a question. I know membership of the club is free until January, but is that a full years free membership or will they start charging everyone from January on?   They already have credit card, so will it be like one of these things like the AA or McAfee where they automatically charge until you have to go on and tell them not to. 

[Hobby]

23 minutes ago, Legend said:

Interesting. Do Piko do TT:120 ?  

 

Yes.

[Johan DC]

20 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Interesting. Do Piko do TT:120 ?   I've always thought this was a manufacturer that produces reasonable detail at a good price

They do. Have only seen their G scale rolling stock, so no idea what the quality is. Pricewise, well, quite high...

[adb968008]

Restricting vision of TT to those who sign up has several benefits…

 

1. your only going to sign up if your interested.
2. if your a oo modeller seeking to whinge, you cant see it without signing up

3. those seeing it in a roped off area are separated from earshot of others, again whinge reduction.

 

and finally..

 

4. if seeing it means signing up, theres a 1 in 10 chance you might buy… so this is a very good way of finding out the size of the market potential… Youve got no other competition, the market is exclusively Hornbys…. and each sign up, is a customer lead.
 

So if its 500, 1000, 10000 members, Hornby is the only guy in town to know the size of the TT market.

 

My guess is this is a key metric for decision making in the short term.

 

Down the road, I suspect another key metric will be how many TT club members convert to paid subscription… at that point the count of the remaining members my guess the potential would be 1 in 3 members would go on to purchase something in the short term.

 

if I was to hazard theoretical numbers, if 2000 is the magic number for a TTooling, you might need 20k free membership sign ups… and if 70% lapse at a paid subscription, then maybe 6000 paid up members maybe a leading indicator for 2000 sales… taking into account that isnt 2000 individual purchasers, a few hundred may purchase a few models over time… and hence the market is sized.

 

A negative indicator for TT to me, would be granting a second year of free membership… that would mean to me, that retention was an issue, therefore not enough commitment from the sacred TT army.

Edited October 31, 2022 by adb968008

[Hobby]

36 minutes ago, Legend said:

The sets possibly missing Christmas must could be a big set back.

 

There, corrected it for you, it's not a given, as Simon has said to several of us they are hoping to get them across in time by air if a deal can be done. Even then a delay of a week or so isn't the end of the world... Though it's God's gift to the Hornby knockers!!

 

25 minutes ago, Legend said:

 I do wonder about this. I wouldn't have though making folk sign up for the club to gain entry was the greatest of moves. I don't like the coercion factor.

 

I signed up when announced. Still haven't got the pack though- so looking forward to my lanyard!  But I am a very cynical person by nature, so I have a question. I know membership of the club is free until January, but is that a full years free membership or will they start charging everyone from January on? 

 

As I said I feel it was more to limit numbers to those who were genuinely interested, when i went in it was first thing and empty but an hour or so later it was pretty crowded, had it just been open house then I doubt everyone would have got chance to see them close up.

 

I haven't had the pack either, though I know people who have, saw a few at Gaydon! According to the membership blurb we all got when joining the discount is for 12 months of joining.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Hobby

[adb968008]

34 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

The sets missing Christmas must be a big set back.

If the TT market isnt being distorted by robbing potential OO sales, then it should not be.

 

If TT has legs, it should stand at anytime, not just christmas time.

 

If there are true levels of TTistas out there.. they will be happily waiting, not giving up and buying OO…. after all TT trainset is a conversion to 120 for life, not just for christmas…. We are told.

Edited October 31, 2022 by adb968008

[Legend]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If the TT market isnt being distorted by robbing potential OO sales, then it should not be.

 

If TT has legs, it should stand at anytime, not just christmas time.

 

If there are true levels of TTistas out there.. they will be happily waiting, not giving up and buying OO…. after all TT trainset is a conversion to 120 for life, not just for christmas…. We are told.

 

TTistas  . Got to be word of the day. Watch how you say it, though!

 

Christmas traditionally when people get a set. I think it's about getting new people in not converting from OO to TT:120, so missing that slot must be a blow.

 

On the other hand, Hornby have a major new TV program coming up, Presumably TT:120 will feature heavily in that, so having more to sell at that time might work 

[dagrizz]

56 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

There's a few of you, granted, but many of us have to buy stuff unseen. I've been modelling east European narrow gauge for years and have bought lots of things sight unseen and not been disappointed.

 

 

Sorry, I don't think this is a relevant analogy. East European NG is a rather limited market whereas Hornby are aiming for a broad appeal with British prototypes.  

[Phil Parker]

23 minutes ago, Hobby said:

As I said I feel it was more to limit numbers to those who were genuinely interested, when i went in it was first thing and empty but an hour or so later it was pretty crowded, had it just been open house then I doubt everyone would have got chance to see them close up.

 

From my position demonstraiting a little way down the hall, it was a very busy show at times and if everyone had tried to get into the TT room, there would have been a real scrum, which people would then have moaned about. The models are very small and you'd have had very little chance to fondle them, or ask questions, without some control of numbers. For what it's worth, I have the club magazine, and it's an excellent publication. Plenty about the new range obviously, but also an interview with one of the designers, prototype piece on the A1/A3 and A4's, layout build, and history of Tri-ang TT from Pat Hammond.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There will be some photos of the model later. @AY Mod is currently processing them, so watch this space.

[Les1952]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Japanese trains are what they are and their passenger services transitioned to MU operation many decades ago with the exception of the blue trains which operated overnight limited services (though they also developed sleeper and overnight seating MUs many decades ago like the Series 583 (which is a bit of a cult design in Japan). In terms of operation, it remains the finest railway system I've ever used, and by quite a margin. Standards of reliability, punctuality and presentation are in a different world to most, even if they tend to avoid ostentatious luxury. For example I find the Chinese high-speed trains more luxurious and better appointed than the Japanese Shinkansen trains, but the Shinkansen remains the benchmark in my experience for excellence in operation. That said they have very intensive freight operations with some rather impressive freight locomotives.

On Tomix track, I use Kato Unitrack, I order from Japan and even in England I ordered Japanese trains from Japan. Japan online model shops offer excellent service and in my experience are completely reliable.

 

They just weren't at the time I needed stuff, when Japan closed its export airfreight due to Covid, and reliable exporters couldn't get stuff out.

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, dagrizz said:

So I can't see the TT range in my local model shop. And I can't see the range at the few large shows where Hornby have a stand because I have to join a club first. 

How am I supposed to see it at my own leisure? Online does not count - I buy things I can see in the flesh first. I can't help thinking that Hornby are shrinking their potential customer base with these marketing tactics.

 

Graham 

 

Not entirely correct.  Those stating they couldn't see TT120 without filling in a form were wrong.  There was a TT120 layout with running trains on the main stand outside the door.  Perhaps in their disappointment they didn't see it.....

 

Les

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Interesting. Do Piko do TT:120 ?   I've always thought this was a manufacturer that produces reasonable detail at a good price

 

taken from the latest World Wide Area Group e-supplement from the N gauge Society.

 

Worth noting that Piko who DO have a viable N-gauge range (and from experience it is good stuff) as well as their established three ranges at different price and detail standards in HO, see a market for TT as well.

 

 

Les

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Les1952
typos as usual

[dagrizz]

11 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Not entirely correct.  Those stating they couldn't see TT120 without filling in a form were wrong.  There was a TT120 layout with running trains on the main stand outside the door.  Perhaps in their disappointment they didn't see it.

 

You sure it was TT? Looked like OO to me.

 

Graham

[AY Mod]

47 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

There will be some photos of the model later. @AY Mod is currently processing them, so watch this space.

 

Thanks to Phil for some of the most informative pics I have seen so far.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Allegheny1600]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Interesting. Do Piko do TT:120 ?   I've always thought this was a manufacturer that produces reasonable detail at a good price

Some;

https://www.piko-shop.de/en/warengruppe/tt-scale-42/l-100/o-preis_desc.html

I’ve tried to set the page so you see locos first but if it reverts to it’s original state, do LOTS of scrolling!

 

In case you think there’s a lot not available, try here;

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Loco+_and_+Wagons/Diesel+Locomotive/gb/liste.html?spur=TT&hersteller=Piko&gattung=Diesel+Locomotive

This is just the available diesel locomotives from one manufacturer, one shop - all TT.

 

For those who say “but, it’s in Europe “ - yes, there’s import duty and shipping but you will save 19% German VAT!