bagpipes331 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Maybe I need to see the real model, but the roof line above the cab winows looks wrong to me??? Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Just thinking more about these front end glazing issues - if as Brian states they have missed the rubber seals off the bodywork (as was intended) then why notice have a change of approach and produce some class 20 style front windows (ie glazing with the rubber seals added on the edge) which are a push fit from the front - then we should have perfection. CME it would be interesting to know if Heljan do follow updates/feedback - they'd be silly not too - but....??? - hopefully they are reading such comments....and spot these issues that have occured on the pre production model. Getting the model as near to 100% correct is so important especially if you are wanting people to part with £500 for a model. An extra few quid in final development could lead to lots more sales for them. I couldnt agree more Deltic, I was told by one trader - close to Heljan - that the reason why the 7mm 33's had 'some issues' was down to tooling costs, I responded that the 4mm versions were more accurate/better and why was that - and that was followed by silence. If a company has CAD data and the like then, if the 4mm model was right (apart from the huha about the roof/roof line) then why cant such be transpossed for the 7mm version (whilst putting the roof line right at the drawing stage etc. - ie 'continuous improvement'), surely it is easier to get the model right than wrong in that instance. I have some mates who are 'CAD jockeys', pattern makers and designers and those are their comments too.... The other issue which you have rightly picked up on is that at this price point (a 'considered purchase' in this day and age) why was the poor old modeller of 7mm scale expected to have second best at a higher price with the 33 example.....I realise, after working in manufacturing and FMCG myself, that things can go wrong, even on/within a single production site, let alone when activities are outsourced but....perhaps it is Heljan's 'organisational culture' that doesnt support 'continuous improvement', time will tell with the Cl 31 It will be interesting aswell to see Dapol's future output and hopefully such will introduce some real competition into the 7mm RTR market sector.... I realise that R&D costs, other budgets, manufacturing processes have to be taken into account and have to be balanced with the final product and retail/sale prices yet it would be nice to think that Heljan will look and listen accept feedback etc. on the Cl 31 as the Western, I believe, will be an even bigger challenge to get right. Although Brian has, as always, done a cracking job, those rivets - even for one who doesnt count such - seem to get bigger every time I look - then there is the matter of the waiste band....... ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Having had 10 mins at lunch to look at a photo of 5837 (circa 1970), I thought that the roof over hang above the doors looked too deep, yet in another of Brian's photos that didnt seem to be the case/so noticeable. Over all the model looks pretty good, yet the waist-band almost needs to be a transfer strip/stripe or even lining tape in terms of thickness as the plastic moulding really stands out (or so it seems) and the bolts on the side could do with toning down a fair bit, yet the real issue, is, to my eyes (and mind) definately the glazing - especially those front windows as others have said - the 'face' and the associated angles, from what I can see in photos, looks okay, yet the windows/glazing really detract/show up and let down the look of the model, if it could be viewed with better glazing then we would have a better idea of things in general. Let us hope that Heljan takes note and sorts these issues at this pre-production stage - fingers crossed as the loco looks to be so nearly there . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 See if I can answer some things mentioned recently. Bodyside window frame is merged into the waistband like the prototype. Lower bodyside "rivets" are actually bolt heads and I think are quite visible. How thick is the Heljan paint finish going to be? Boiler water level gauge is the same height as the prototype, about 5 slats of the grill next to it. Engine room door is there as is the cab door. As to the windows, well we will just have to wait and see what happens I am surprised nobody has mentioned a missing item from the model yet as it's quite noticable, but hopefully is being put right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Guys, I have emailed Heljan (Heljan@Heljan.dk) and Howes what I have put below (It had all the correspondence formalities etc). I'm still not sure if it's getting into the correct hands though. Perhaps Brian could advise who to contact? I recently viewed the pre-production O gauge Class 31 model. There appear to be a number of errors which I hope can be resolved before the model goes into full production. The issues are; Glazing is very poor - It looks like a prismatic material has been used. This completely alters the appearance of the cab; Cab front shape too flat - The cab panels which have the driver and secondman's windows should be ever so slightly angled back towards the body. The panel with the small window above it should be flat. This creates a very slightly curved contour where the cab face and roof join. On the pre-production model it appears that the whole front is flat. Have a look at the attached pictures of the cab front of 31414. You will note that the right drivers panel is illuminated but the panel on the opposite side is in shade emphasising the tapered angle of the cab. This further alters the cab shape because the middle window's connection to the roof is at a too sharp an angle. If the cantrail is altered to include the curve mentioned then this would be reduced and make the whole cab face accurate. Bodyside rivets are too prominent. Please can you reduce their size. Cab footsteps should have a bottom lip - on the model it is totally flat. The bottom of the footstep should stick out and the vertical sides should be angled to the top. Again see the picture I have attached. Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is the only picture I took looking down on the cab. Also a picture of 31101 looking down on it. I do not have the model anymore so I am using the pictures I took a couple of weeks ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 tomstaf - I have sent an email to Heljan too - all we are doing is to try and help them - hopefully they take notice if they want to maximize sales - it would be such a shame if the front end can't be corrected. If not I might as well switch back to 4mm modelling for increased accuracy. What we need is a Heljan version of DapolDave who really listens to feedback - maybe HeljanHelga???? It will be very interesting to see what forthcoming realeases Dapol do in O guage with a diesel shunter on the cards shortly (surely an 08?).... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi All, Tried to get on here before yet there seemed to be server issues... I have had a quick look at the old DJH 31 and that had fairly pronounced bolt head detail etc. too. I like the fact that you guys have written to Heljan/Howes, they would be foolish not to listen to customers/potential customers and customer perception/demand. I hope that they listen to Brian too as he, of course has a wealth of experience in such matters.. Yes for a relatively small player I think that Dapol have taken the right approach by using modern communication methods so as to gauge opinion and demand, fair play to them, I am looking forward to seeing their 7mm output. Thanks for all of your efforts chaps. ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 This is the only picture I took looking down on the cab. Also a picture of 31101 looking down on it. I do not have the model anymore so I am using the pictures I took a couple of weeks ago. Hi Brian, That glazing really is shocking in close up - let us hope that it is just pre-production. Do Howes/Heljan ever ask for feedback/advice from you Brian? ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Do Howes/Heljan ever ask for feedback/advice from you Brian? They do get the use of my wisdom But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 They do get the use of my wisdom But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Hi Brian, Glad to hear that they ask - or that you inform them 8) I just hope with the Cl 31 that they dont, as one wise fellow once said; 'snatch defeat from the jaws of victory!' There is one more issue with Heljan 7mm RTR locos that I cant fathom - mold lines. On several of their locos they seem to be there - prominately in some cases - underneath a superbly applied factory paint finish, why dont Heljan debur/buff/remove the mold lines (a few seconds work on the right machine and in the right hands) before the body goes to the paint process/shop - another quote for you guys; 'dont spoil the ship for a hapeth of tar' Thanks again for all of your efforts Brian, much appreciated. ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi Guys, I received a response from Heljan today. They acknowledged the comments I made, and highlighted that it's a pre-production model and there are still corrections to be made before it goes to tooling. The particular corrections were not specified however. On the positive side it does make me more hopeful that they will improve it. Watch this space now. Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hi Guys, I received a response from Heljan today. They acknowledged the comments I made, and highlighted that it's a pre-production model and there are still corrections to be made before it goes to tooling. The particular corrections were not specified however. On the positive side it does make me more hopeful that they will improve it. Watch this space now. Cheers Tom Hi Tom, Well done - that sounds great, time will tell. ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Recieved another updated 31 sample which now has the window rubbers! The glazing is better as well. Getting there slowly. Nice lampbrackets though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Recieved another updated 31 sample which now has the window rubbers! The glazing is better as well. Getting there slowly. Nice lampbrackets though! Hi Brian, The glazing looks far more clear But the broken window rubber lines around the cab windows look exactly the same as the previous model. Are you are referring to window rubbers somewhere else? Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yes Tom I should have said "most" of the rubbers. There is still a bit missing on one end only! As I said, getting there slowly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
31130 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Brian, What's going on with the tail lights, in the last pic they look terrible! Or is there just some red discs stuck over them for effect? Also still no guttering! Martyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Hello martyn and welcome to the forum. You should have signed in as 31101, much better than that icecream van 31130 The guttering is there! Honest. The tail lights on the first sample were clear plastic but this sample has a red clear plastic instead. They show up a nice red with power on. I am painting this sample at the moment so when it's done we will see if they are still a bit "in your face" with a yellow background. If they are maybe it would be better to tell them to leave them clear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Hello martyn and welcome to the forum. You should have signed in as 31101, much better than that icecream van 31130 OK - I'll go for it - "ice-cream van" ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
31130 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I prefer the ice cream van look ;-) although saying that 101 has somewhat a hint of raspberry ripple to it. 5682 looks very nice, cracking job there mate - you even managed to keep the numbers straight! :-D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 you even managed to keep the numbers straight! :-D Now, now don't believe everything that cockney tells you When I said 31130 is like an icecream van I am refering to it's Speedlink Coal livery as opposed to a nice plain old blue job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 What have they done to the tail lamps (as has been said above)? - how can they mess these up as they have been pretty much perfect on the class 37,47 etc and just need the same approach. The glazing does look more clear but why does it have to slope back at about 10 degrees to the window frame? making the windows look like they are about to fall inwards? - it was the same on the 47. why can't they make it a flush fit like on the class 33 or have front inserted windows as per the class 20. I thought the class 33 windows were a big improvement - now we seem to be heading backwards again. I also echo the rubber seals - so are they completely OK on 1 end Brian but not the end you photographed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 The window rubbers are complete on No1 end. I can't fathom out why the windows sit back a bit at the top. I will play about with this second sample to see if I can cure it. Those red tail lamps are in the wrong way round. I have put them in the right way round and they look ok now. I have also turned the lampbrackets up the right way! I have just painted this second model but still need to varnish it so I will take some pictures then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I'm surprised no-one has picked up on the fact the Heljan (famed for the perception that "once it's done, it's done") are making alterations to improve a forthcoming release. EDIT: Looking at the tail lamps, have the 'lenses' not been fitted outside-in rather than the normal fitting from the inside? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I'm surprised no-one has picked up on the fact the Heljan (famed for the perception that "once it's done, it's done") are making alterations to improve a forthcoming release. EDIT: Looking at the tail lamps, have the 'lenses' not been fitted outside-in rather than the normal fitting from the inside? Hear what your saying and I was contemplating the very same - didnt want to jinx it though Perhaps Heljan, with new competition, and an awareness that cash flow is challenging at this time, have had to 'listen'. I have never been a rivet counter, each to their own of course, yet I do expect value for money from RTR manufacturers, yet when times were better for all (financially), I was critised for making 'constructive criticisms/critiques' of Heljan's 7mm scale models, yet I must admit, that with a little tweeking I can live with most of Heljan's output to-date, including the 47 (which many seemed to have a problem with - I didnt). This time around, Heljan may find moving stock more challenging a thus must listen. I have said it before, and will again, Heljan seem to have, to my mind, in the past, adopted a strange view of the world or at least 7mm scale RTR, yet this relates again, to the 'charge what the market will bear and the punters get what they're are given' type of approach (which is fairly alien to me when it comes to 'customer service'). Perhaps with the economic climate and Dapol's entry into the world of 7mm RTR Heljan have had to rethink their sales strategies (even though with this model they're not going head to head with a.n.other manufacturer, but they are 'competing for finite resources' ie people's cash!). ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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