Is it known to the contrary?

Just because a few people on RMWeb have developed a pet theory without any evidence at all doesn’t make it historical fact. There has been a general consensus about brown for a number of years. All of a sudden, when no one is around who was alive at the time, people start to question things. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that the consensus can be wrong, shouting loudly in disagreement without anything to substantiate it does count as evidence against the consensus.

13 hours ago, Brassey said:

So despite this being a homage to the brown livery, in conclusion Mikkel, you too are now coming round to the opinion that the "brown" period never actually existed and is fake news.

 

The fact is that you have researched but found no mention of a change in 1912 in the Railway Magazine ,  I have found nothing in The Locomotive Magazine of the time.  And GWW confirms that it was totally missed by the Great Western Magazine too.  And the reason why it was not reported is the change in 1912 NEVER HAPPENED; the colour was red from 1908.

I haven't really come round to anything, just exploring the different angles on this as a layman 🙂

I suppose there are two discussions here, one is whether there was an official livery change in 1912 to a technically different colour, or if it was just a change of varnishing practices. Another discussion is whether and how much the 1908-12 and 1912-22 colours actually differed in appearance, regardless of their technical composition.

Regarding the latter, as I think you said earlier Brassey, it is possible that it was technically crimson lake throughout but that the 1908-12 varnishing practices made it look brown during that period. But even if that is the case, the modeller wishing to represent those years should in my view still paint the stock brown, as that’s how it looked in traffic.

By the way - and this is partly tongue in cheek - an alternative conclusion from the above DSB example could be that the GWR’s 1912-22 crimson lake livery might have come across as, ahem, brown in everyday traffic 😀. But if I understand K14s comment above correctly, he has seen an original sample of Lake and finds that the livery on the preserved 92 and 93 is about right, so I'm content to leave that one there.

But one thing is still not clear to me: Where does the original notion of 1908-12 brown followed by 1912 crimson lake come from? (genuine question). There seem to be two well-regarded sources: Slinn and Harris. But neither quote their sources or evidence, which is frustrating, though not necessarily their fault as the editors may have insisted on keeping it simple.

While Slinn is often quoted, I feel  Harris actually provides more context, linking the livery changes of the period to the Churchward revolution. Here is the full quote:

"Once G. J. Churchward was fully in command at Swindon, the winds of change blew with some force. One of the most noticeable traditions to suffer was of course the beautiful two-colour livery, as a result of a report on carriage cleaning dated November 1902 and referred to elsewhere. In criticising the existing state of affairs in general, the officers responsible concluded: 'A report shall also be prepared . . . as to whether the colours in which they [the coaches] are painted are the most suitable that can be devised'. This subsequent report, assuming it was completed, does not seem to have survived in the official archives.

Shortly after the 1902 report, a number of coaches were put into traffic in a deep brown livery. However, it is not known whether this was the straight Windsor brown. After all, it was the cream that showed the dirt and grime, and not the brown. The brown lake which was applied to some vehicles at this time would probably be a form of madder lake which was noted for colour fastness and durability and was available in rich, warm tones.

[…]

From 1908, the two-colour livery was discontinued in favour of an overall colour described as a chocolate lake. Lining and insignia much the same as before, but yellow ochre was used for lining from about 1907-1910. From 1912, a much deeper shade of chocolate was used for the basic scheme.

After 1913, with the adoption of steel body panelling for 'Toplight' stock, it was decided to paint imitation panels to represent the wooden mouldings used with the wooden body panels. This may seem strange to modern thinking, but it avoided a complete break in coach painting practice which went back to the days of the stage-coach. Another reason for painting these imitation panels would be to lessen the effect of cracking and chipping of paint around the steel panel joints and fixing points.

At this time, shortly before the First World War, after the normal application of primer stopping and fillings to the body sides, passenger stock was finished as follows: one coat ground colour; one coat of finishing lake, then four coats of coach varnish with denibbing or flatting taking place between coats. Compared with more recent practice, with the use of glossy or semi-glossy paints, the vehicles were finished in a final flat coat and then varnished. The imitation panels were set out with special templates. The gilding would be carried out using ribbon gold, a special type of gold leaf used for gilding and lining on transport vehicles of all types. The overall finish that resulted was expected to last up to ten years before repainting, but passenger stock employed on crack services would be given a 'flat and varnish' at regular intervals in the meantime.

Coaches repainted during the First World War do not seem to have emerged with any noticeable form of economy livery. From this time, clerestory stock had the clerestory deck-lights painted over. The first home-use ambulance trains supplied by, and continuing to remain in the ownership of the GWR, were painted in the full livery of the period. Later ambulance trains sold to the Government were outshopped in an unlined livery with the toplights painted over."

In extension of this, I wonder if the 1912 livery or varnishing adjustments were connected to this:

16 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Lining and insignia much the same as before,

That's a difficult statement. In the full late-Victorian / Edwardian chocolate and cream livery, the raised moldings were painted black, with the edges lined - in the manner of Midland carriage livery. In the lake livery, the raised moldings were painted body colour, with the edges lined - in the manner of North Eastern carriage livery, or North Western, barring the white upper panels. That, to me, is hardly "lining much the same as before".

In Harris' defence, he does describe that livery in som detail and provides the detailed painting diagram of the 1903 livery that was prepared at Swindon in 1952. 

3 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

In Harris' defence, he does describe that livery in som detail and provides the detailed painting diagram of the 1903 livery that was prepared at Swindon in 1952. 

That has, by its omission of lining around the door eves panel, led to confusion, as I gather.

2 minutes ago, Brassey said:

in both instances the gold/ochre lining is on the quadrant. The shape of the quadrant on a plastic kit is different to that on an etched kit. Some have commented that the Slaters kits are more of a challenge to line. 

I think you are referring to this:

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

In the full late-Victorian / Edwardian chocolate and cream livery, the raised moldings were painted black, with the edges lined - in the manner of Midland carriage livery. In the lake livery, the raised moldings were painted body colour, with the edges lined - in the manner of North Eastern carriage livery, or North Western, barring the white upper panels. 

rather than the text quoted.

Yes, for all the instances mentioned. The edges of the moldings are more prototypically rounded on most injection-moulded kits than on etched brass kits, by virtue of the manufacturing process. 

4 hours ago, Brassey said:

 

The previous picture to this in Edwardian Enterprise states "the first GWR auto-train at Southall" so the colour scheme possibly dates back to then.

 

 

 

The 'clothed' 517 is No. 833 according to RCTS, which has the same picture.

9 hours ago, Brassey said:

 

The brown locos were painted well before 1908 in the early Churchward period and intended to match the contemporary Chocolate and Cream carriage stock.  The cabsides were originally cream as were the cab interiors.  There is at least one picture shewing the cream cabsides.   I lined mine in orange.

 

IIRC some 850's got an overall coachlike body painted to match the carriages too.  I think the pics are in Edwardian Enterprise.

Technically, then, those earlier repaints were into chocolate and cream, rather than all over brown, with it amended later to this.

Yes, I recall seeing a photo showing cream cab sides, and thought how bad it would be at hiding the dirt!

On 08/06/2022 at 13:12, Miss Prism said:

This is the interpretation of the 517 'brown' by Tony Reynalds and Martyn Welch. It is not known whether this locomotive brown has any correlation with what was used on coaching stock.

 

Have a look here, possibly a real 517 in all-brown or crimson lake:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsr1112.htm

If so, a very rare photo.

Very good. 

I see that Kernow have chosen RAL 8017 for their 1908 version of the RTR Railmotor (the GWS seem to be involved in the project, though I don't know if they've had influence on the liveries).

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/50708/K2303-DJ-Models-GWR-Steam-Railmotor-number-63-in-GWR-Brown

4 hours ago, Brassey said:

Not so rare. You can tell it's the brown scheme from the lining and the cream cab insides:

 

 

RCTS lists all the brown 517's.  Most if not all had full cabs and outside bearings to the trailing wheels.  Most were probably also autofitted at some time.

 

PS: just the clarify, the lining on green locos was 2 orange lines whereas this has only one.  You can see that around the cab the lining is edged in black

A little detail:

The toolbox has it's padlock hooked over the end handle.

Presumably it's unlocked?

Ah yes, I do like that photo. What I wouldn't give for a day on that bench. Although in this particular case some of that scene could in fact be recreated, thanks to the preservation movement.

Over in the Kernow Railmotor thread, Miss P posted a photo of a railmotor and clerestory 3rd in brown or crimson lake, which has got me thinking that the C10 could also be used for such a train at Farthing. I want to see how the windows on the Kernow railmotor turn out first though.

On 01/04/2022 at 19:22, Miss Prism said:

On the subject of rooves during the 1908-22 period, Paddington photos provide interesting views. This is supposedly 1910. Note also stock on the right- and left hand sides.

It's interesting how the two-tone livery lingered on in some cases. Below is a Windsor Royal Garden Party train alledgedly in 1913. Stock at the back in brown/crimson lake. You'd be forgiven for speculating that the GWR kept some two-tone stock in hand for certain events!