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Slater's GWR dia. C10 clerestory coach


Mikkel

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I’m building a Slaters kit for a  GWR bogie clerestory third to diagram C10. The coach is intended for a motley Edwardian stopping train consisting of a variety of carriage styles, as was common on the GWR in the 1900s. But first it will be used in a re-enactment of the 1911 railway strike, and is therefore in the 1908-1912 all brown livery (as yet un-lined). 

 

 

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This post summarizes the build.  It's a long post but I'm told the kits are due back on the market so perhaps this can help give others an impression of what's involved and avoid my mistakes!

 

 

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What you get. Lots of bits. Wheels weren’t included.

 

 

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The plastic components are crisp and detailed. I did spend some time cleaning away flash. The larger bits of flash are minimal and not a problem, but there are thin strips of flash along the upper edges of the windows which require care.

 

 

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I used Limonene (two coats) to bond the sides, which worked well enough. The Magnetic Clamps are from Smart Models.

 

 

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The partitions were then fitted, followed by the roof. I opened out the notches in the roof for the partitions, so that the roof could be taken on and off during the build.

 

 

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The seats are quickly made and fit nicely in the compartments - not always the case with kit seats!

 

 

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The clerestory structure was quickly built up. The ends and clerestory parts are “handed” with different details at each end.

 

 

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The underframe, solebars and headstocks were then fitted. Etched brass snuck in via the "racking plate" , which was glued in place.

 

 

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I then turned to the bogies. 

 

 

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They fold up nicely.

 

 

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One mistake was to put off strengthening the  stepboard supports with solder. They are very fragile and will soon break off otherwise. The photo shows the ones I managed to rescue, the rest were replaced with wire  later on.

 

 

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The inside frame and rocking mechanism was then made.

 

 

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The principle of the kits - at least those produced until now - is that the wheels run in the inside frame using "inside bearings". Brass wire hold the wheels in place and allow sprung movement. This design has drawn critical comments from people who struggled to get good running. I understand that it will be changed when the kits are re-released.

 

 

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In any case, I lacked the correct axles so decided to go for an alternative approach, using Alan Gibson pinpoint axles in ordinary bearings. Thanks to @Darwinian for the idea.

 

 

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For this approach to work, the pinpoint bearings must fit perfectly into the recessed aperture around the hole in the bogie sides - seen here - and must be of the right depth. Otherwise the sides will splay. 

 

 

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Using the right bearings was therefore critical. I tried various types including 2mm Top Hat bearings but these would not accommodate the axles within the bogie frames. Eventually I used these waisted bearings plundered from old Coopercraft kits, as seen above. 

 

 

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The ends of the bearings did need some filing so that the axleboxes would fit over them. Filing the inside of the axleboxes also helped.

 

 

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With this simplified approach the inner frame was not strictly required, but I decided to fit it anyway to add strength and hold the rocking mechanism.

 

 

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 Are you still awake? Captions welcome.

 

 

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The bogie interiors were gradually becoming inaccessible so I primed them and painted the Mansell wheels. The latter are brownish red as a loose indication of varnished redwood (see good discussion on Western Thunder).

 

 

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A silly mistake cost me dearly. I forgot to fit brake shoes until the wheels were firmly in place. Retrofitting the 16 shoes was a hellish task. As a result the various brake pull yokes didn’t fit properly, so much of that is just indicated with brass wire.

 

 

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Once back on track, the cross stays and scroll irons were fitted. There are useful close-ups and drawings of Dean bogies in Russell's GWR Coaches Part 1 p. 93-95.

 

 

 

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The scroll irons were then cut to allow the bogie to rotate. Not exactly neat cuts, they were filed later. I do need a proper flush cutter.

 

 

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In order for the bogies to rotate, the frames have to be modified at each end.

 

 

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I hope I got the position of the gas cylinders right. I peered into the murky darkness of prototype photos and Didcot's C10, which suggests it's more or less OK.

 

 

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Next the underframe details were fitted.

 

 

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I shortened the queen posts, as I felt the truss rods ended up too low if fitted as intended. Prototype photos like this one (and the C10 at Didcot) shows them higher up and fairly discrete. Unless truss rods changed over the years?

 

 

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I didn't fancy "trapping" the bogies with the brake pull rods, so just fitted this single rod held by (unprototypical) vertical mounts. The bogie can be slid out underneath it. Bit of a bodge but at least something is there for those rare glimpses.

 

 

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The main buffer components. There’s an option of springing them, though I didn’t use it. The instructions state that the buffers "consisted of a curved oval steel plate bolted onto a round buffer head". 

 

 

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The outer plate needs to be lightly curved and then fitted to the buffer heads. I didn't make a good job of this, it looks a bit odd. If I do another one I'll see if ready-made buffers can be obtained instead.

 

 

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Next the stepboard hangers went on. This required patience as the hangers, solebars and stepboards all need modification for the parts to fit, as also indicated in the instructions.

 

 

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The material used for the stepboards somehow managed to be both bendy and brittle at the time, though note that this is a secondhand kit of some age. My adjustable multi-purpose jig a.k.a. “The Piano” saved the day.

 

 

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The lower stepboards were then fitted. I later found that the bogie stepboards had to be shortened approx. 1,5 mm to clear the central stepboard. The hangers for the latter also need modification or they will stick out oddly.

 

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It’s striking what a difference stepboards make to the appearance of a coach.

 

 

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From there on it was plain sailing. The roof was detailed using the as lamp tops in the kit, and 0.3mm (0.010") brass wire.

 

 

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Steps fitted at one end, and putty to fill out the corner joins. In 1911 the GWR experimented with Bluetack on buffers in response to complaints about rough riding. The idea was abandoned when a Slip coach destined for Weymouth was found still attached at Penzance.

 

 

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After priming, the interior was painted. I decided to leave the 48 picture frames untouched. Chris: I did try painting them as you suggested but soon realized that it should have been done while the partitions were still on the sprue.

 

 

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The coach sides were brush-painted with my normal method of multiple coats (5 in this case) of much thinned Vallejo acrylics, using a broad flat brush. In the photo a fresh coat is being applied.

 

 

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The coach was painted all-brown as per the 1908-1912 livery. The photos I have show light to dark grey rooves (probably the usual darkening) with no brown beneath the rainstrips.

 

 

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Commode- and door handles were then added, followed by lettering and insignia. The 1908 livery had the garter in the center, and crests either side with "GWR" above. The position of the crests at the outer ends makes for an unbalanced look and takes some getting used to.

 

 

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But that's how it appears in this crop of a 1911 photo of a scene I'll be modelling.  Perhaps this extreme position of the crests was in fact a particular feature of the little explored 1908-1912 livery - brakes excepted? Photos of bogie coaches in the all brown livery are rare, but there is a Toplight in Russell 's GWR coaches which also has the crests just before the last passenger door at each end. The photo in Slinn's Great Western Way has the crests further in, but on inspection that coach has guard doors at each end, and so there would not have been room to put the crests further out on that particular coach (crests were kept clear of doors). Of course in 1912 the GWR did move the crests further in, with just a single "GWR" placed above the garter.

 

 

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The 1908 livery saw the introduction of black ends. The hand rails are 0.3 mm wire from Wizard Models, which I found easier to shape than the wire in the kit. Vaccuum pipes and couplings to follow.

 

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So far I have never lined my Edwardian coaches, a pragmatic decision  in order to get things built and running. In this case it does add to the austere appearance though. Perhaps it's time to try out an Easi-Liner pen.

 

Anyway, that's the current state of play. My original plan was to use this livery for a photo shoot of selected 1911 scenes and then repaint it in pre-1906 livery with cream panels. However I must admit that the sombre look is growing on me. Something to ponder.

 

 

Edited by Mikkel

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In the C19th there were efforts to "standardise" colours in scientific descriptions - such as plant illustration, mineralogy etc - so that learned papers (presumably printed in b & w) which included colour description would be less affected by individual colour perception. [https://journals.openedition.org/1718/1327] "Cet article vise à reconstituer l’élaboration de la nomenclature des couleurs proposant un tableau de 108 couleurs distinctes, publié en 1814" (long article, actually in English).

 

No doubt and unhelpfully, these efforts were not of primary (no pun intended) concern to the 1900s reporters for the Railway Magazine and so we're left with colour descriptions such as "chocolate" which perhaps is a more useful colour description (as the confectionary was already well established) than "lake" (as in "lacquer" not as in "pond"). As Compound2632 has pointed out, lake pigments are organic; they tend towards transparency and, in the longer term, tend to be fugitive. With subjective colour perception, fugitive colours, inexact use of terminology (pigment, colour, hue etc) (but obv not on RMweb), chemical changes from pollution that can change white to black and experimentation by the company, the extent of variables is baffling.

 

However, turning to my favourite and best reference for the period - The Ironmonger 'Hardware Tables' for 1908, I find this under 'Formulae for Mixing Colours': Chocolate Colour -

 

"add lake or carmine to burnt umber, or take Indian red and black to form a brown: then add yellow to bring about the desired shade."

 

So that clears that up then...

 

But I couldn't leave it quite there so I began looking up colour cards from the Edwardian period - couldn't find much, particularly from UK but this one, from USA, stood out for all the wrong reasons:

"Chicago House Wrecking Co"

[https://archive.org/details/PaintsPriceWreckerNo.118/page/n7/mode/2up] - no, not demolition contractors or children...

Kit PW

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The Locomotive Magazine, August 1909:

 

"GREAT WESTERN RY. The large passenger engines are now allowed to work up and down to South Wales, via Gloucester. No. 2679, 2-6-0 mineral engine, has been fitted with Mr. Churchward's new pattern of super- heater. No. 2225, 4-4-2 tank, has been painted experimentally chocolate red with yellow lining, and black below the footplate. "

 

Chocolate Red?  I think RCTS has this loco painted "Crimson Lake".  Are they the same colour?

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32 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Chocolate Red?  I think RCTS has this loco painted "Crimson Lake".  Are they the same colour?

 

Undoubtedly. But what colour?

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7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Great to have that selection of pics for comparison on the same page, Mikkel. Thanks.

 

My personal view is that 92 and 93 are probably the preservationists' best yet crimson lake, and that the colour for the Main Line & City stock as first preserved was wrong for crimson lake, but a rather excellent version of 1908 brown.

 

92 & 93 are in 'Llangollen Red' as supplied by Williamson's. Having seen an original sample of Lake, I reckon the Llan got it about right.

Where it fell down originally IMO was by applying only one topcoat over Williamson's recommended undercoat which is a rather nice red colour but shifts dramatically depending on the lighting conditions.

When I repainted 93, it got two coats of Llan Red over a neutral grey undercoat. The original sample had evidence that Swindon used a pink undercoat (probably white lead + lake).

 

Pete S.

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21 hours ago, K14 said:

Can't really help there, that was before my time - mid '80s?

That said I've a vague recollection that a 'job lot' of 5-gallon drums of a very deep purply-red/brown paint was either donated or otherwise obtained & was deemed to be near enough so got used.

@Western Star might know more.

Sorry Pete @K14, not able to help this time.  My interest in the loco side of the depot rather precluded wandering into the carriage shed.

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10 hours ago, kitpw said:

Chocolate Colour

High cocoa content (aka “plain”), adulterated with vegetable oils and milk solids (aka “milk”) or that strange variety known as “white”?

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11 minutes ago, Regularity said:

or that strange variety known as “white”?

...that's the roof colour (for a little while at any rate).

 

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

On 05/06/2022 at 11:40, kitpw said:

[snip]

 

But I couldn't leave it quite there so I began looking up colour cards from the Edwardian period - couldn't find much, particularly from UK but this one, from USA, stood out for all the wrong reasons:

"Chicago House Wrecking Co"

https://archive.org/details/PaintsPriceWreckerNo.118/page/n7/mode/2up  - no, not demolition contractors or children...

Kit PW

 

I don't imagine "Drab" would sell well today under that name 🙂

 

This annoucement appears in the May 1909 Railway Magazine, but frustratingly cannot be found in the June issue. I expect it was separate and hasn't been copied over during the digitization.

 

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Mind you, it might have been misleading anyway. Modellers of today would find some of their 1900s drawings of GWR locomotives too light green.

 

 

20 hours ago, Brassey said:

The Locomotive Magazine, August 1909:

 

"GREAT WESTERN RY. The large passenger engines are now allowed to work up and down to South Wales, via Gloucester. No. 2679, 2-6-0 mineral engine, has been fitted with Mr. Churchward's new pattern of super- heater. No. 2225, 4-4-2 tank, has been painted experimentally chocolate red with yellow lining, and black below the footplate. "

 

Chocolate Red?  I think RCTS has this loco painted "Crimson Lake".  Are they the same colour?

 

Also in 1909, the Railway Magazine described the experimentally liveried locos as "lake" or "crimson lake", whilst at the same time calling the coaches "brown", "chocolate" etc. 

 

Isn't it ironic, words and drawings/paintings are so subjective and prone to error, yet they are all we have to go on.

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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kitpw

Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

they are all we have to go on

I don't remember from which gallery - probably the National, which you referenced above - but I read an article recently about the scientific retrieval of colour from paintings which have clearly changed colour with time (reds particularly affected).  The article suggested that even with the basic chemical/mineral constituents established, the colour could not be sufficiently determined to allow truly "accurate" repair of the painting.  I think that there have been attempts to retrieve colours in this way from other things but I suspect that they too may reduce the options but still have speculative outcomes.  On the same quest, I did spend some time looking at Victorian and Edwardian paintings which are notorious for presenting what we think of as odd colorizations (?US spelling).  It's a pity that WP Frith did not live later or longer as he was extremely concerned about getting the GWR rolling stock in 'The Railway Station' as accurate as possible, which included specially made photos provided by the company.  The original version is at the Royal Holloway College (there are other later and smaller versions which he also painted) and is much better in terms of colour than reproductions allow -  I was quite surprised when I saw it for real.  The painting was 1862: for pre-group/Edwardian modellers, too early a date to offer much in the way of contemporary observation or record.  Still, I will continue to keep an eye out in this direction knowing full well that I will label as "reasonably accurate" anything that reinforces my own prejudices and "hopelessy inaccurate" anything that does not.  Otherwise, I will follow the receipe in the Ironmonger and "add yellow to bring about the desired shade".

 

Kit PW

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

Edited by kitpw
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All very interesting.  It is nice to read a set of posts on colours that has no 'froth' in them.  I love the 'add yellow to bring about the desired shade' as it puts things into perspective.  I have enough trouble with Cambrian 'Bronze Green' which I fear is much more brown than I have painted my coaches, so what I will make of the GWR ones still to paint who knows.

 

Now the colour palette from the 'Wrecker Co.' is interesting on a couple of points.  When I 'Googled' 'Drab' I came up with a light brown.  The palette has it as, well, is that brown or is that grey, or maybe browny grey?  (The colour above the luggage racks in Cambrian First Class compartments is Drab Rep, so I need to know. 🙂  Rep is some kind of material.)  Now the colour palette has 'Pink', which I would call flesh colour, so maybe the colours have faded, or maybe it is my monitor, or my eyes, or.........

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4 hours ago, ChrisN said:

The palette has it as, well, is that brown or is that grey, or maybe browny grey?

The Ironmonger's Hardware Tables for 1908 gives the following: "Drab colour. - 9 parts of white and 1 of umber".  That should do it - it was obviously a well known and popular choice - nowadays, it would be marketed by a posh paint company under the name of 'Elephant's Ears' or something like that.  Not sure where you'll find Rep at 4mm/ft though: when I looked up Rep, Google went straight to "La Repubblica"....helpful as always, and inventive.

 

Kit PW

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

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1 minute ago, kitpw said:

The Ironmonger's Hardware Tables for 1908 gives the following: "Drab colour. - 9 parts of white and 1 of umber".  That should do it - it was obviously a well known and popular choice - nowadays, it would be marketed by a posh paint company under the name of 'Elephant's Ears' or something like that.  Not sure where you'll find Rep at 4mm/ft though: when I looked up Rep, Google went straight to "La Repubblica"....helpful as always, and inventive.

 

Kit PW

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

Thank you.  Maybe when I paint it I will have to try actually doing it like that.  Rep is, I think, the usual covering for coach seats.  The Cambrian had for 1st Class, blue Broad Cloth, which I have down as mid blue, (too long ago to know how I worked that out), for 2nd, striped plush, which I have as dark blue, and for 3rd, brown Rep, which I have as mid brown.  The GWR  Michael Harris, Great Western coaches from 1890 has:

Current in 1890-1895: 1st Crimson Plush, 2nd and 3rd Rep, smoking compts in leather.

 

It gives no details of what colour but I took it as Brown Rep and used Humbrol 250, Desert Sand.  

 

Just checked something and what they use now, and from 1896 is Moquette, so Rep must precede that.  Just found, it is a woven cloth with fine cords or ribs across it. Jimmy Whales big bag of Trivia.

 

Now the big question is, when you are painting the seats, did they get lighter where the people sat due to wear, or darker due to dirt?  (No, I am not really serious.)
 

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First class lighter,  third class darker. 

 

Not serious either but I wonder too...... 

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

Re. worn seats: From my commuting experience I would say lighter, but that may depend on the nature of fabric and its original/undyed colour. Or maybe this is one of those situations where the question is not how it looked in reality, but how it looks most convincing in model form? If so I would first try dry-brushed lighter.

 

Re. 1908-1922 liveries. The issue of how different shades and varnish practices appear in daily operation has reminded me of the DSB "Maroon" livery (sic, the English term was used), which was known to enthusiasts as "Wine Red". This preserved example represents the "official" look:

 

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But amongst the ordinary public is was typically just described as "brown". Indeed I remember conversations about how dull it was. This photo illustrates my own recollection and is fairly kind, i.e. a not too dirty example. 

 

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Below is the maroon livery again but contrasted with the subsequent "Red" livery on the coaches at the back. While the maroon was different from the GWR's "crimson lake" you can see how members of the public - and a staff writer at the Railway Magazine - might come away with a perception of "brown" when observing liveries of this type in everyday operation.

 

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Edited to avoid confusion about DSB livery dates, as these were not the same for all stock. 

Edited by Mikkel
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49 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Re. 1908-1922 liveries. The issue of how different shades and varnish practices appear in daily operation has reminded me of the DSB "Maroon" livery (sic, the English term was used), which was known to enthusiasts as "Wine Red".

 

So no doubt the colour known to 19th century railway directors as "claret". We can be sure the knew what colour claret is.

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So despite this being a homage to the brown livery, in conclusion Mikkel, you too are now coming round to the opinion that the "brown" period never actually existed and is fake news.

 

The fact is that you have researched but found no mention of a change in 1912 in the Railway Magazine ,  I have found nothing in The Locomotive Magazine of the time.  And GWW confirms that it was totally missed by the Great Western Magazine too.  And the reason why it was not reported is the change in 1912 NEVER HAPPENED; the colour was red from 1908.

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kitpw

Posted (edited)

Molesworth's Pocket Book of Engineering Formulae for 1912 gives the following in a very short section about painting:

Carriage Painting.

"Number of coats, Railway Carriage Painting (L. & N. W. R.)

New work: 3 coats white priming; and stop brad holes. 4 coats filling. 1 coat staining and rub down. 1 coat lead colour, stop and face with pumice stone, 2 coats lead colour, 1 coat brown, 2 coats lake, 4 coats varnish.

Note! Not more than 1 coat a day, and two days between coats of varnish.  Varnish to contain no gold size.

 

Not GWR but the principle of a brown base coat (probably opaque colour) with lake (fairly transparent colour) followed by a good deal of varnish (highly transparent, but not colourless) seems to provide the ex works colour.  The concern here, however, seems to be more about the work involved than the colour achieved as the end result.  Whilst I'm fascinated by these historical references, I don't think it's providing many answers to the questions of what colour? and when? It slightly reminds me of the joke (I laughed anyway, 40 years ago) about the head chef asking the sous-chef what's in the large cooking pot - "it's bean soup" comes the reply to which the chef responds "I don't care what it's been, what is it now?".

 

Kit PW

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

 

 

 

Edited by kitpw
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1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

There's plenty of loco livery changes the mags didn't report.


but 2 of the magazines reported on ONE County Tank being turned out in Crimson Lake in 1909 but none of them noticed a change to the entire carriage fleet in 1912?

 

As I’ve said before, the only way to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various paint committees at the GWR to see if there is a mention. 

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28 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Molesworth's Pocket Book of Engineering Formulae for 1912 gives the following in a very short section about painting:

Carriage Painting.

"Number of coats, Railway Carriage Painting (L. & N. W. R.)

New work: 3 coats white priming; and stop brad holes. 4 coats filling. 1 coat staining and rub down. 1 coat lead colour, stop and face with pumice stone, 2 coats lead colour, 1 coat brown, 2 coats lake, 4 coats varnish.

Note! Not more than 1 coat a day, and two days between coats of varnish.  Varnish to contain no gold size.

 

Not GWR but the principle of a brown base coat (probably opaque colour) with lake (fairly transparent colour) followed by a good deal of varnish (highly transparent, but not colourless) seems to provide the ex works colour.  The concern here, however, seems to be more about the work involved than the colour achieved as the end result.  Whilst I'm fascinated by these historical references, I don't think it's providing many answers to the questions of what colour? and when? It slightly reminds me of the joke (I laughed anyway, 40 years ago) about the head chef asking the sous-chef what's in the large cooking pot - "it's bean soup" comes the reply to which the chef responds "I don't care what it's been, what is it now?".

 

Kit PW

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

 

 

 


The make up of LNWR paints is covered in the book LNWR Liveries Talbot et al. But no such equivalent detail is documented on GWR paints. 
 

That is with the exception of the GWS book “Structure Colours 1912-1947 From Official Sources” by Richard North. This includes the work of the GWR Paint Committee 1912-1927. 
 

I guess there are not too many people interested enough in pre-grouping carriages for anyone to have fully researched the official sources on that. Any volunteers?

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2 hours ago, Brassey said:

So despite this being a homage to the brown livery, in conclusion Mikkel, you too are now coming round to the opinion that the "brown" period never actually existed and is fake news.

 

The fact is that you have researched but found no mention of a change in 1912 in the Railway Magazine ,  I have found nothing in The Locomotive Magazine of the time.  And GWW confirms that it was totally missed by the Great Western Magazine too.  And the reason why it was not reported is the change in 1912 NEVER HAPPENED; the colour was red from 1908.

 

Absence of evidence to the contrary is not proof. Although I might agree with your conclusion as a working hypothesis.

 

56 minutes ago, Brassey said:

but 2 of the magazines reported on ONE County Tank being turned out in Crimson Lake in 1909 but none of them noticed a change to the entire carriage fleet in 1912?

 

Exceptions are always more news-worthy; locomotives are always more newsworthy. If the SVR had painted all its carriages purple do you thing it would have gained the media attention it has got by painting one locomotive purple?

 

56 minutes ago, Brassey said:

As I’ve said before, the only way to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various paint committees at the GWR to see if there is a mention. 

 

Do such things exist, for rolling stock? "Various" strikes me as improbable. I note the reference to a "GWR Paint Committee 1912-1927" - I haven't dug very deeply into TNA catalogue or NRM searchengine for this; can anyone give me the reference? 

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Several 517s were painted in chocolate brown, lined yellow-black-yellow, to match the auto coaches which had been painted in brown. They were known as “chocolate soldiers”. (For example references see the WSP book on the Abbotsbury Branch by Jackson.)

 

To me, this provides rather more evidence that brown was actually used between 1908 and 1912 than does the speculation provided that actually it was red. I imagine that the all-over brown looked very nice when fresh, but looked rather too shabby after a couple of years, and that as repaints became due, it was changed to the red.

Edited by Regularity
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This is the interpretation of the 517 'brown' by Tony Reynalds and Martyn Welch. It is not known whether this locomotive brown has any correlation with what was used on coaching stock.

 

1157-brown-livery-small.jpg.587f23b8ac359283906bd8f64572839c.jpg

Edited by Miss Prism
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