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Slater's GWR dia. C10 clerestory coach


Mikkel

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I’m building a Slaters kit for a  GWR bogie clerestory third to diagram C10. The coach is intended for a motley Edwardian stopping train consisting of a variety of carriage styles, as was common on the GWR in the 1900s. But first it will be used in a re-enactment of the 1911 railway strike, and is therefore in the 1908-1912 all brown livery (as yet un-lined). 

 

 

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This post summarizes the build.  It's a long post but I'm told the kits are due back on the market so perhaps this can help give others an impression of what's involved and avoid my mistakes!

 

 

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What you get. Lots of bits. Wheels weren’t included.

 

 

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The plastic components are crisp and detailed. I did spend some time cleaning away flash. The larger bits of flash are minimal and not a problem, but there are thin strips of flash along the upper edges of the windows which require care.

 

 

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I used Limonene (two coats) to bond the sides, which worked well enough. The Magnetic Clamps are from Smart Models.

 

 

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The partitions were then fitted, followed by the roof. I opened out the notches in the roof for the partitions, so that the roof could be taken on and off during the build.

 

 

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The seats are quickly made and fit nicely in the compartments - not always the case with kit seats!

 

 

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The clerestory structure was quickly built up. The ends and clerestory parts are “handed” with different details at each end.

 

 

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The underframe, solebars and headstocks were then fitted. Etched brass snuck in via the "racking plate" , which was glued in place.

 

 

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I then turned to the bogies. 

 

 

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They fold up nicely.

 

 

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One mistake was to put off strengthening the  stepboard supports with solder. They are very fragile and will soon break off otherwise. The photo shows the ones I managed to rescue, the rest were replaced with wire  later on.

 

 

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The inside frame and rocking mechanism was then made.

 

 

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The principle of the kits - at least those produced until now - is that the wheels run in the inside frame using "inside bearings". Brass wire hold the wheels in place and allow sprung movement. This design has drawn critical comments from people who struggled to get good running. I understand that it will be changed when the kits are re-released.

 

 

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In any case, I lacked the correct axles so decided to go for an alternative approach, using Alan Gibson pinpoint axles in ordinary bearings. Thanks to @Darwinian for the idea.

 

 

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For this approach to work, the pinpoint bearings must fit perfectly into the recessed aperture around the hole in the bogie sides - seen here - and must be of the right depth. Otherwise the sides will splay. 

 

 

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Using the right bearings was therefore critical. I tried various types including 2mm Top Hat bearings but these would not accommodate the axles within the bogie frames. Eventually I used these waisted bearings plundered from old Coopercraft kits, as seen above. 

 

 

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The ends of the bearings did need some filing so that the axleboxes would fit over them. Filing the inside of the axleboxes also helped.

 

 

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With this simplified approach the inner frame was not strictly required, but I decided to fit it anyway to add strength and hold the rocking mechanism.

 

 

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 Are you still awake? Captions welcome.

 

 

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The bogie interiors were gradually becoming inaccessible so I primed them and painted the Mansell wheels. The latter are brownish red as a loose indication of varnished redwood (see good discussion on Western Thunder).

 

 

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A silly mistake cost me dearly. I forgot to fit brake shoes until the wheels were firmly in place. Retrofitting the 16 shoes was a hellish task. As a result the various brake pull yokes didn’t fit properly, so much of that is just indicated with brass wire.

 

 

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Once back on track, the cross stays and scroll irons were fitted. There are useful close-ups and drawings of Dean bogies in Russell's GWR Coaches Part 1 p. 93-95.

 

 

 

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The scroll irons were then cut to allow the bogie to rotate. Not exactly neat cuts, they were filed later. I do need a proper flush cutter.

 

 

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In order for the bogies to rotate, the frames have to be modified at each end.

 

 

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I hope I got the position of the gas cylinders right. I peered into the murky darkness of prototype photos and Didcot's C10, which suggests it's more or less OK.

 

 

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Next the underframe details were fitted.

 

 

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I shortened the queen posts, as I felt the truss rods ended up too low if fitted as intended. Prototype photos like this one (and the C10 at Didcot) shows them higher up and fairly discrete. Unless truss rods changed over the years?

 

 

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I didn't fancy "trapping" the bogies with the brake pull rods, so just fitted this single rod held by (unprototypical) vertical mounts. The bogie can be slid out underneath it. Bit of a bodge but at least something is there for those rare glimpses.

 

 

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The main buffer components. There’s an option of springing them, though I didn’t use it. The instructions state that the buffers "consisted of a curved oval steel plate bolted onto a round buffer head". 

 

 

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The outer plate needs to be lightly curved and then fitted to the buffer heads. I didn't make a good job of this, it looks a bit odd. If I do another one I'll see if ready-made buffers can be obtained instead.

 

 

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Next the stepboard hangers went on. This required patience as the hangers, solebars and stepboards all need modification for the parts to fit, as also indicated in the instructions.

 

 

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The material used for the stepboards somehow managed to be both bendy and brittle at the time, though note that this is a secondhand kit of some age. My adjustable multi-purpose jig a.k.a. “The Piano” saved the day.

 

 

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The lower stepboards were then fitted. I later found that the bogie stepboards had to be shortened approx. 1,5 mm to clear the central stepboard. The hangers for the latter also need modification or they will stick out oddly.

 

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It’s striking what a difference stepboards make to the appearance of a coach.

 

 

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From there on it was plain sailing. The roof was detailed using the as lamp tops in the kit, and 0.3mm (0.010") brass wire.

 

 

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Steps fitted at one end, and putty to fill out the corner joins. In 1911 the GWR experimented with Bluetack on buffers in response to complaints about rough riding. The idea was abandoned when a Slip coach destined for Weymouth was found still attached at Penzance.

 

 

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After priming, the interior was painted. I decided to leave the 48 picture frames untouched. Chris: I did try painting them as you suggested but soon realized that it should have been done while the partitions were still on the sprue.

 

 

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The coach sides were brush-painted with my normal method of multiple coats (5 in this case) of much thinned Vallejo acrylics, using a broad flat brush. In the photo a fresh coat is being applied.

 

 

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The coach was painted all-brown as per the 1908-1912 livery. The photos I have show light to dark grey rooves (probably the usual darkening) with no brown beneath the rainstrips.

 

 

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Commode- and door handles were then added, followed by lettering and insignia. The 1908 livery had the garter in the center, and crests either side with "GWR" above. The position of the crests at the outer ends makes for an unbalanced look and takes some getting used to.

 

 

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But that's how it appears in this crop of a 1911 photo of a scene I'll be modelling.  Perhaps this extreme position of the crests was in fact a particular feature of the little explored 1908-1912 livery - brakes excepted? Photos of bogie coaches in the all brown livery are rare, but there is a Toplight in Russell 's GWR coaches which also has the crests just before the last passenger door at each end. The photo in Slinn's Great Western Way has the crests further in, but on inspection that coach has guard doors at each end, and so there would not have been room to put the crests further out on that particular coach (crests were kept clear of doors). Of course in 1912 the GWR did move the crests further in, with just a single "GWR" placed above the garter.

 

 

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The 1908 livery saw the introduction of black ends. The hand rails are 0.3 mm wire from Wizard Models, which I found easier to shape than the wire in the kit. Vaccuum pipes and couplings to follow.

 

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So far I have never lined my Edwardian coaches, a pragmatic decision  in order to get things built and running. In this case it does add to the austere appearance though. Perhaps it's time to try out an Easi-Liner pen.

 

Anyway, that's the current state of play. My original plan was to use this livery for a photo shoot of selected 1911 scenes and then repaint it in pre-1906 livery with cream panels. However I must admit that the sombre look is growing on me. Something to ponder.

 

 

Edited by Mikkel

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

Thanks Peter, found it. The gwr e-list is now here:

 

https://gwr-elist-2019.groups.io/g/main

 

Jim C has helpfully uploaded all the old posts to the  "Database" section of the group. Click the hamburger icon at bottom of main page, then Database, then Message Archive. Searching the latter for "All brown" led to the 2017 discussion on the topic (page 4).

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Super Mikkel.

 

Great step by step and fab end result 👍

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Posted (edited)

Many thanks Pete. The carriage bug has bitten again. I need a number of coaches for my new layout showing the main platforms at Farthing, so there's enough to do.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Well done Mikkel! I used to wonder about these kits... now I know!

 

The position of the crests does take some getting used to, but you have the photographic evidence to prove it.

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12 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Many thanks Pete. The carriage bug has bitten again. I need a number of coaches for my new layout showing the main platforms at Farthing, so there's enough to do.

 

 

When you’re talking GWR it’s shewing, not showing 😉

Edited by Penrhos1920
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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Well done Mikkel! I used to wonder about these kits... now I know!

 

The position of the crests does take some getting used to, but you have the photographic evidence to prove it.

 

Many thanks Dana. Yes, I don't know what the GWR were thinking when they placed the insignia that far out on the sides. It was so much more elegant further in, as they did later.

 

 

11 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

When you’re talking GWR it’s shewing, not showing 😉

 

Ah yes, where are my manners! 😀

 

Incidentally, there's an interesting variant of the post-1912 livery in Michael Harris' "Great Western Coaches". There is a photo of a Clifton Down set on page 51. The leading coach was not rebuilt to the shewn condition until 1913, yet there are two "GWR"s in the waist band, although one crest is not positioned beneath it. The coach behind it appears to have the "standard" post-1912 livery with one "GWR" in the middle.

 

For those who don't have the Harris book, the photo can be seen - split in two - on Penrhos1920s' site. I can't link directly to the page in question, but they are listed under Dean coaches>Short coaches>Low Roof Coaches, look for dia D27 and E58/C40.


Edit: Deleted some ramblings about this photo which were resolved when I found a better version of the image.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Posted (edited)

Thanks Chris but I meant the other half of the picture, i.e. this one: 

 

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/c/LPhotos/A2_3332.jpg

 

There are two "GWR"s in the waist panels which would normally indicate 1908-12 livery, but this  coach was rebuilt and therefore presumably repainted in 1913. Also, the crest on the left is not aligned with the "GWR" above it. Perhaps an indication that experiments with livery details were still going on in 1913.

 

I rather like these Clifton Down sets. Roxey Mouldings have a kit for both this driving trailer and the compo that you linked to, Chris.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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15 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

 

Incidentally, there's an interesting variant of the post-1912 livery in Michael Harris' "Great Western Coaches". There is a photo of a Clifton Down set on page 51. The leading coach was not rebuilt to the shewn condition until 1913, yet there are two "GWR"s in the waist band, although one crest is not positioned beneath it. The coach behind it appears to have the "standard" post-1912 livery with one "GWR" in the middle.

 

 

 

Which  Harris "Great Western Coaches"?

P51 in mine has a Truro Express with a Dean Single in charge and  Dean Clerestory First Sleeper!

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It's hard to tell but I think on this 40' PBV there are two garter crests; one under each GWR:

 

K15_close_up.jpg.774bb28ca1a84bfd2c898957aeadc722.jpg

 

It is attached to an LNWR corridor vehicle on a through train.

 

PS: I would speculate that the horse box is also in Crimson Lake particularly as the white roof suggests a recent repaint

Edited by Brassey
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My interest in all this is piqued because I am currently building a rake of these coaches: a brake third, 2 x all thirds, a compo and an old K’s 40’ PBV. The latter and one of the C10’s in Crimson Lake. The formation has an LNWR Though carriage to London attached at the rear. 
 

As eluded to, I am struggling with the lining so attention has turned to the bogies. Incidentally the compo ran on 6’ 4” bogies.  Mikkel you have reminded me of the poor reputation of the Slater bogies so I will try plan A and use Brassmasters torsion bogies. 
 

Peter

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11 hours ago, melmerby said:

Which  Harris "Great Western Coaches"?

P51 in mine has a Truro Express with a Dean Single in charge and  Dean Clerestory First Sleeper!

 

Here is my page 51. Looks like the editions are different then. Mine seems to be 1985 "3rd rev.". 

 

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2 hours ago, Brassey said:

It's hard to tell but I think on this 40' PBV there are two garter crests; one under each GWR:

 

K15_close_up.jpg.774bb28ca1a84bfd2c898957aeadc722.jpg

 

It is attached to an LNWR corridor vehicle on a through train.

 

PS: I would speculate that the horse box is also in Crimson Lake particularly as the white roof suggests a recent repaint

 

Great photo! Yes looks like two crests under the "GWR"s, which suggests the all brown livery (whether designated as such or a result of the initial varnishing practice, depending on the theory). Maybe the central garter crest is obscured or faded - or it's yet another variant for PBVs!

 

The horsebox does intuitively look more lake by comparison.

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11 hours ago, Brassey said:

It's hard to tell but I think on this 40' PBV there are two garter crests; one under each GWR:

 

K15_close_up.jpg.774bb28ca1a84bfd2c898957aeadc722.jpg

 

It is attached to an LNWR corridor vehicle on a through train.

 

PS: I would speculate that the horse box is also in Crimson Lake particularly as the white roof suggests a recent repaint

 

I think there’s a garter on the bottom of the lookout and you can see the supporters under the GWRs.  So it’s the normal 1908 livery.  Remember that with the exception of the special coaches that the GW didn’t use 2 garters on its coaches.

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Mikkel, I posted some comments on the 1908 livery in your workbench, together with two pictures that were originally posted back in January 2018:

 

 

To repeat one part, I see in the Railway Magazine comments from October 1909, that you posted back in 2017, that the 1908 GWR livery was a “red-brown tint,” which Toplight No.7672 does seem to exhibit in the picture. But I think chocolate brown is close enough, given what others have said about the GWR’s experience with the stability 1908 livery colour.

 

Humbrol actually do German Camouflage Red Brown (No.160). The colour on the lid looked promising, but I found that the actual hue was more of a medium brown with a hint of red. I recently used some to paint the shoes of one of the Gnomes. He liked it, so not a total loss!😊

Edited by Dana Ashdown
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Posted (edited)

Hi Dana,

 

I've been going through the Railway Magazine for the period again, looking for references to the single-colour GWR coach livery for the whole 1908-1922 period + the associated experiments from 1903 onwards . Here is what I've found so far:

 

July 1903: “All chocolate” (experiments)

June 1905: “Brown” (experiments)

October 1908: “Chocolate brown”, also “Swindon chocolate”

October 1909: “Brown” (differentiating it from the old “chocolate and cream”)

April 1915: “Red-chocolate brown”, also “dark red brown” (old choc and cream colour described as “tea-brown”)

Sept 1920: “Chocolate brown”

 

Although this is rather limited evidence, I tentatively note three things:

 

1) It depends who wrote it!

2) There is no mention of an observed livery change around 1912 (that I've found so far).

3) The term "brown" and/or chocolate is recurring - right up to 1920 in fact.

 

Point 1 is very important , I think. We know how subjectively colour is perceived, and in addition some of the writers might just be citing the colour off the cuff without in-depth observation. That said, contemporary observations can  have a certain value I think, exactly because they describe how the colour was experienced by the public. Official company descriptions aren't always a good indication (Stroudley's improved engine green!), and a colour might differ significantly between the paint-shop and a grey Monday morning on the platforms at Slough.

 

Point 2 can be seen as an indication that there is either no colour change or only a slight/gradual one, related for example to changing varnishing practices, as discussed above. This could  explain the "red-brown" description popping up in 1915, which could be interpreted as the well-known post-1912 lake.

 

However, Point 2 and 3 taken together also raises another possibility that none of us would like to hear and which I am not launching here as some halfbaked new theory - but it deserves mention: The repeated use of the term brown throughout the 1908-1922 period could  indicate that the glorious "post-1912" lake colour was in fact more brown than red.

 

Over in the workbench thread, you posted that lovely drawing by W.J. Gordon:

 

6 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

(snip)

 

The second picture is GWR Composite Brake Corridor No.7672 (corridor side), circa 1910, from W.J. Gordon, Our Home Railways, Volume I (Frederick Warne & Company, London, 1910). The coloured plates were by W.J. Stokoe, based on photographs and pictures. Whether the brown is accurate remains to be seen, but it does show how the Toplights were treated. I don’t see any “GWR” initials, but I don’t know if that’s an omission by the artist, or just a difference in livery specifications.

 

1831212921_GWRCompositeBrakeCorridorNo.7672circa1910.jpg.c98a8e2509e824a8452b996125ab5299.jpg

 

It does look "red-brown" on my screen and to my eyes - though more brown than the lovely lake we like (there is that nagging thought again!).

 

The question of course is how much we can trust the colour rendering. On the one hand, here is someone who seemingly made an effort to get it right. On the other hand, there are also locomotive drawings from the period where the colours seem a bit off.

 

Edited to clarify

Edited by Mikkel
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I remember when Didcot wheeled out the first restoration of their Main Line & City stock. I took a couple of (old chemical film) pics, which are long since lost I think. I remember going up very close to the side of the coach and asking myself "What colour is this?" I couldn't answer my own question. All I saw was the deep dark opulent lake rather than the colour.

 

Maybe Pete Speller @K14can enlighten us.

 

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I think one needs to do a bit of a check against contemporary descriptions of liveries over which there is less doubt. For example, how is the plum of the LNWR's plum and spilt milk described - the famous "black and white" trains? there has been some debate about the colour of carriage ends, sometimes described as chocolate brown, which has been interpreted as either the undercoat to the plum or the plum unvarnished. LNWR Liveries takes a very clear line: "The ends of the carriage were painted lake in exactly the same manner as the sides, but without any lining." The presence or absense of lining can have a marked effect on the perception of colour. As to the colour itself: "The lower panels and all raised moldings above the waist were painted alazarine carmine lake, or 'dark claret' as it was called in earlier days. The colour was also sometimes referred to as 'chocolate', although a Wolverton painting specification published in the Railway Magazine for November 1897 makes it clear that 'chocolate' and 'lake' are synonymous."

 

The naive reader might conclude that LNWR and GWR carriage liveries were similar.

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In paint terminology, 'lake' pigments are those produced from organic materials, as opposed to  mineral pigments, such as vermilion or ultramarine.  Woad was originally a 'lake' pigment although, like most pigments nowadays has been replaced by synthetic substitutes. 

 

Crimson 'lake', also known as Carmine, was produced from the cochineal insect.  This red pigment was highly prized by artists because of its translucency, which allowed great intensity of colour to be achieved as, for example, in paintings by Titian.

 

Because of this translucency, 'lake' paints can be used as a varnish over mineral based paints.  I don't know what happened on the GWR but it is possible that red 'lake' layers were initially placed over brown mineral pigments to produce a 'richer' red appearance.  The confusion in reports during the 'experimental' period could have been the result of different ways of layering the translucent varnishes.

 

Mike

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27 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I remember when Didcot wheeled out the first restoration of their Main Line & City stock. I took a couple of (old chemical film) pics, which are long since lost I think. I remember going up very close to the side of the coach and asking myself "What colour is this?" I couldn't answer my own question. All I saw was the deep dark opulent lake rather than the colour.

 

Maybe Pete Speller @K14can enlighten us.

 

Can't really help there, that was before my time - mid '80s?

That said I've a vague recollection that a 'job lot' of 5-gallon drums of a very deep purply-red/brown paint was either donated or otherwise obtained & was deemed to be near enough so got used.

@Western Star might know more.

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53 minutes ago, K14 said:

5-gallon drums of a very deep purply-red/brown paint

 

That's the one.

 

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I remember when Didcot wheeled out the first restoration of their Main Line & City stock. I took a couple of (old chemical film) pics, which are long since lost I think. I remember going up very close to the side of the coach and asking myself "What colour is this?" I couldn't answer my own question. All I saw was the deep dark opulent lake rather than the colour.

 

Maybe Pete Speller @K14can enlighten us.

 

 

Below is a selection of Flickr photos of Didcot's 3755 (built June 1921) in post-1912 "Crimson Lake" (all taken prior to 2019 when it was repainted in the two-tone livery). I'm putting up a number of them to show different lighting conditions, angles, camera renderings etc. 

 

I know preservation liveries can't be used directly, especially if as @K14 says it comes down to a job-lot of donated 5-gallon drums.  But the variations in appearance are interesting enough, I think. And the differences compared to the Railmotor and Autotrailer too, perhaps - the latter seem to represent a much redder/purple interpretation than the very brown appearance of 3755.

 

40384446715_926948fed8_o.jpgRD16395.  GWR Brake 3rd 3755. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

 

41281160101_83b4b03d05_o.jpgRD16394.  GWR Brk 3rd 3755. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

 

14098521282_743054e9bf_o.jpgGWR 1921 Churchward Non Corridor Brake 3rd No 3755 by Bob Lovelock, on Flickr

 

33008787521_39e80ecd43_o.jpgGWR Churchward Non-Corridor Brake Third No. 3755, Didcot Railway Centre, circa 1990 by churchward82c, on Flickr

 

26663989981_0db8857825_o.jpgDidcot Railway Centre,April 30 2016 by nick B, on Flickr

 

51331813159_544f4426b8_b.jpg86F 265 GWR 3755 Moorgate at Didcot Railway Centre by snaebyllej2, on Flickr

 

36090862716_f80eb0956f_o.jpgGWR Brake Third 3755, 18/03/2016, Didcot railway Centre by lee25nash, on Flickr

 

4166445938_d41f3291a8_o.jpgGWR  3755 Churchward Non-Corridor Brake 3rd by Nick Baxter, on Flickr

 

And here, the auto-trailer and railmotor:

 

40712363223_71e0da2a8c_o.jpg92 by Hugh Llewelyn, on Flickr

 

40712364193_c60a1b8d0e_o.jpg93 & 92 by Hugh Llewelyn, on Flickr

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

In paint terminology, 'lake' pigments are those produced from organic materials, as opposed to  mineral pigments, such as vermilion or ultramarine.  Woad was originally a 'lake' pigment although, like most pigments nowadays has been replaced by synthetic substitutes. 

 

Crimson 'lake', also known as Carmine, was produced from the cochineal insect.  This red pigment was highly prized by artists because of its translucency, which allowed great intensity of colour to be achieved as, for example, in paintings by Titian.

 

Because of this translucency, 'lake' paints can be used as a varnish over mineral based paints.  I don't know what happened on the GWR but it is possible that red 'lake' layers were initially placed over brown mineral pigments to produce a 'richer' red appearance.  The confusion in reports during the 'experimental' period could have been the result of different ways of layering the translucent varnishes.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, quite interesting.  It made me curious for more and I found this video from the National Gallery about the chemistry of red lakes and cochineal:

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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None of those approach what I'd call crimson lake but I'm a Midland man:

 

1260_2.jpg?lossy=1&strip=1&webp=1

 

[Embedded link to Midland Railway Trust website.]

 

It's a lot of cochineal beetles, though, isn't it? I haven't found any evidence of a synthetic substitute, at the period.

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Great to have that selection of pics for comparison on the same page, Mikkel. Thanks.

 

My personal view is that 92 and 93 are probably the preservationists' best yet crimson lake, and that the colour for the Main Line & City stock as first preserved was wrong for crimson lake, but a rather excellent version of 1908 brown.

 

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